How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

[Cieza]

First lets biblically define "Free will."
But first some basic definitions from the bible.

What's pertinent here isn't the biblical definition of free will. I'm talking about the ability of man to have the freedom to choose A or B up until he actually makes that choice.

May I ask you, if you have a choice between A or B, and you choose A, could you still have chosen B prior to the time you made your choice of A?

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, is a malicious intent to commit sin

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin

This thread is about the conflict between omniscience/omnipotence & man's ability to make unimpeded free will decisions. If you wish to discuss definitions of 'sin' or 'evil', start another thread or PM me.

Freewill is the ability to choose your own will over that of God's expressed will. (The bible/God's Law)

In other words Free will is the ability to sin.

Does that equate to man being able to freely choose between A or B regardless of what anyone or anything knows ahead of time?

So whether we have a destiny or things just kinda all happen random like, or as Forrest Gump's explains: "that it maybe a little bit of both," Biblically based "freewill" is not effected by our life's path and whether it is determined for us or not. Because it is our ability to choose to sin or not. Not whether or not we were born to be astronauts or truck drivers.

Does God know ahead of time if we are going to choose to sin (choice A) or choose to not sin (choice B)?

Does God want us to sin?

Can we make an unimpeded free will choice to choose either A or B?

Second let us have an understanding the the "omni-aspects" of God are not a biblical principle. They are a biblically BASED principles. Then mean God in the scriptures inspired by the holy Spirit, No where did he attribute or define Himself in these ways. "We" in our religious efforts to try and dissect and understand an infinite God, have broken down God's character in a philosophically way. Because these descriptions nor these definitions are of the Bible, or God in anyway. they are terms simply subject to man's understanding or interpretation of a particular aspect of God. These terms can come to limit a limitless God. When this fatal counter scriptural flaw, occurs. These "religious" words must be discarded. Because they produce a fallacy when speaking of the biblically based nature of God.

Are you saying that God is fully omniscient & omnipotent? Or that he has limitations when it comes to those qualities?

 

[Non sequitur]

Ooops

 

[secondtimearound]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

Have you read at all into the doctrine of middle knowledge?

 

[secondtimearound]

Pop quiz, hotshot.

There's an imaginary gun pointed at your head. Once you are born, the trigger is pulled. If you make the wrong choice, you'll burn forever. What do you do? What do you do?

(P.S. Keep the bus above 50 mph)

HA! I have never heard Chirtianity summed up in reference to Speed, hilarious, but how many misfires do you get until the gun finally goes off?

 

[GrayAngel]

You are right in saying that foreknowledge is incompatible with free will. Free will is a common, but unBiblical belief. The Bible teaches that God chose us (not the other way around) before the world even began. Here's one of many examples in the Bible that teaches predestination.

Romans 8: 28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Note the distinction made between foreknowledge and predestination. Some Christians insist that God's predestination is just His foreknowledge of who will be saved, but this is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that God is the one in charge, God is the one who chose us, God is the author of salvation, God is the one who gives us our faith. We were dead in our transgressions, and God raised us to life. We know that the dead cannot do anything themselves.

If we had free will, then God could not have chosen us. Then, it was us who chose God, and this is what saved us. It was our own doing.

The Bible says that God has a plan for us. Well, what good is a plan if all you can do is sit back and watch? God is not sitting idly by as history writes itself: God is writing history.

Some people are afraid of the idea of predestination, because they like to think that they have control of their own lives. However, it really only changes one thing for us: who is in charge. If we were in charge, it would be like we were blind people attempting to drive ourselves around town. We don't know what's coming. But God knows. And with Him in charge, we don't have to worry. His plans are for the good of those who He calls His children, and all we have to do is trust Him.

 

[drich0150]

What's pertinent here isn't the biblical definition of free will. I'm talking about the ability of man to have the freedom to choose A or B up until he actually makes that choice.

Then why title the thread:

How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?
You are asking how to reconcile (very plainly) God's fore knowledge with Free will. You have taken the liberty to use the bible to define an aspect of God that you see to be in conflict with your understanding of "Free will." My assertion was if you are going to use the bible to define a specific aspect of God, then you also have to use the bible to define the concept you are comparing Him to.
Otherwise know you have created a straw man fallacy

May I ask you, if you have a choice between A or B, and you choose A, could you still have chosen B prior to the time you made your choice of A?

What does this have to do with "Free will?" This is a basic causality argument.

This thread is about the conflict between omniscience/omnipotence & man's ability to make unimpeded free will decisions.

Which is not the freewill of the bible. Again You have create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet inequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. In order to have refuted the original position you must address the terms you have decided to use, by using their Complete biblical definitions.

If you wish to discuss definitions of 'sin' or 'evil', start another thread or PM me.

Again, if you wish to discuss what you have headlined then you must have a working understanding of these terms.

Does that equate to man being able to freely choose between A or B regardless of what anyone or anything knows ahead of time?

The choice we have is not limited to your implied understanding of an A or B choice.

Does God know ahead of time if we are going to choose to sin (choice A) or choose to not sin (choice B)?

We all sin all of the time. No one choose choice "A"

Does God want us to sin?

He has allowed for sin so that we may choose to be with Him in Heaven.

Can we make an unimpeded free will choice to choose either A or B?

No, we all choose sin. If we could be in God's expressed will all of the time then we would not have a will of our own. We would be in His will. Now in this state of perpetual sin our true choice is given. Do we choose to be with God for eternity or to continue to worship ourselves. This is our only real choice.

Are you saying that God is fully omniscient & omnipotent? Or that he has limitations when it comes to those qualities?

What I am saying is because these are not biblical referenced terms He is not bound to our understanding of these terms. The complete nature of God lies beyond our best understanding. Which means we can not define Him with a few Omni-aspects.

 

[drich0150]

Ooops

if their is anything you like to add feel free.

 

[GrayAngel]

Suppose you worked at a daycare center and were outside with 30 toddlers at play time. You can know by watching them who is about to hit who; who is about to bite who; who is about to fall off the swing, etc. The toddlers are not planning what to do but making decisions within seconds of doing what they do - unless they are falling off the swing. Regardless, you know before they do what will be most of the decisions. How then are they making their own decisions if you know before they what their decision will be?

It's probably a poor example. But I think you see the point I'm trying to make.

Wait... what point was I trying to make?

I don't know about you, but thirty toddlers sounds like a bit too many to keep track of. They have a lot of energy, and they're always doing something. I would be able to predict what a few of them will do, if I focus on them only.

Difference in this scenario and the God one is that God created us, and before time began, He knew every action we would make. Therefore, everything God did in the beginning cannot be anything more than cause and effect, unless we could somehow contradict God's foreknowledge.

That is the point the OP is trying to get at, I think. And it's why I do not believe in free will, aside from the fact that the Bible says nothing about free will, but very much about predestination.

If God knows everything, then we're living on a set track that we cannot change. Not only that, but God was the One who created us, which means everything we say and do, is a direct result of God's choice in the beginning. It's like God had a choice between making the world a round peg, or a square peg. He made a round peg, and so we fit in the round opening. Free will has nothing to do with it. Even our will is a result of His creation.

 

[elman]

I don't know about you, but thirty toddlers sounds like a bit too many to keep track of. They have a lot of energy, and they're always doing something. I would be able to predict what a few of them will do, if I focus on them only.

Difference in this scenario and the God one is that God created us, and before time began, He knew every action we would make. Therefore, everything God did in the beginning cannot be anything more than cause and effect, unless we could somehow contradict God's foreknowledge.

That is the point the OP is trying to get at, I think. And it's why I do not believe in free will, aside from the fact that the Bible says nothing about free will, but very much about predestination.

If God knows everything, then we're living on a set track that we cannot change. Not only that, but God was the One who created us, which means everything we say and do, is a direct result of God's choice in the beginning. It's like God had a choice between making the world a round peg, or a square peg. He made a round peg, and so we fit in the round opening. Free will has nothing to do with it. Even our will is a result of His creation.

The word free will means being able to love. Love is a choice or it is not love. Sin is a choice or it is not sin. A robot world in which God is responsible for and the source of all evil does not make any sense to me. Why would God created someone and make them lost and then punish them forever? Why would He do that? A loving God would not do that. I don't believe in an evil Creator.

 

[Cieza]

Then why title the thread:

How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?
You are asking how to reconcile (very plainly) God's fore knowledge with Free will. You have taken the liberty to use the bible to define an aspect of God that you see to be in conflict with your understanding of "Free will." My assertion was if you are going to use the bible to define a specific aspect of God, then you also have to use the bible to define the concept you are comparing Him to.
Otherwise know you have created a straw man fallacy
What does this have to do with "Free will?" This is a basic causality argument.

Which is not the freewill of the bible. Again You have create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet inequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. In order to have refuted the original position you must address the terms you have decided to use, by using their Complete biblical definitions.

Again, if you wish to discuss what you have headlined then you must have a working understanding of these terms.

The choice we have is not limited to your implied understanding of an A or B choice.


We all sin all of the time. No one choose choice "A"

He has allowed for sin so that we may choose to be with Him in Heaven.

No, we all choose sin. If we could be in God's expressed will all of the time then we would not have a will of our own. We would be in His will. Now in this state of perpetual sin our true choice is given. Do we choose to be with God for eternity or to continue to worship ourselves. This is our only real choice.

What I am saying is because these are not biblical referenced terms He is not bound to our understanding of these terms. The complete nature of God lies beyond our best understanding. Which means we can not define Him with a few Omni-aspects.

I'll address each one of your points later when I have more time.

It seems as if you're losing focus of what the original question is and/or you're trying to change the question around to suit your needs. Please remember that I'm the one asking questions and I'm the one looking for answers. So to help simplify this, let's break this down to the basics. Please answer the following with a yes/no:

1) Can God do anything?
2) Does God know everything?
3) Does a human who ends up making a choice of A or B have the freedom to choose either A or B up until the point in time he ultimately makes his choice?

 

[elman]

I'll address each one of your points later when I have more time.

It seems as if you're losing focus of what the original question is and/or you're trying to change the question around to suit your needs. Please remember that I'm the one asking questions and I'm the one looking for answers. So to help simplify this, let's break this down to the basics. Please answer the following with a yes/no:

1) Can God do anything?
2) Does God know everything?
3) Does a human who ends up making a choice of A or B have the freedom to choose either A or B up until the point in time he ultimately makes his choice?

1-Yes
2-Yes
3-I don't follow the question.

 

[Cieza]

1) Can God do anything?
2) Does God know everything?
3) Does a human who ends up making a choice of A or B have the freedom to choose either A or B up until the point in time he ultimately makes his choice?

1-Yes
2-Yes
3-I don't follow the question.

I'll reword #3.
3) Let's say a human has a choice between A or B and has not yet made the choice. Prior to making the choice, does the human have the freedom to choose either A or B?
3a) Now let's say the human ultimately chooses A instead of B. If the human had the freedom to choose either A or B prior to the point in time he made his choice of A, does it remain true after he makes his choice of A that prior to his making the choice he still could have chosen B?

 

[elman]

I'll reword #3.
3) Let's say a human has a choice between A or B and has not yet made the choice. Prior to making the choice, does the human have the freedom to choose either A or B?
3a) Now let's say the human ultimately chooses A instead of B. If the human had the freedom to choose either A or B prior to the point in time he made his choice of A, does it remain true after he makes his choice of A that prior to his making the choice he still could have chosen B?

3a--yes
3b--yes

 

[Cieza]

3a--yes
3b--yes

Now we're making some progress.

Let's say on Pete's day 1, God knows what Pete's choice of A or B will be on Pete's day 3. We'll say God knows Pete will choose A. If God knows the future, then he would know this. If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he could potentially choose B. If he chooses B instead of A, then what does that do to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?

If you can't explain, then you might want to re-examine your views of knowledge vs. time.

 

[elman]

Now we're making some progress.

Let's say on Pete's day 1, God knows what Pete's choice of A or B will be on Pete's day 3. We'll say God knows Pete will choose A. If God knows the future, then he would know this. If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he could potentially choose B. If he chooses B instead of A, then what does that do to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?

If you can't explain, then you might want to re-examine your views of knowledge vs. time.

God knows what Pete is going to chose. God would never have known Pete was going to chose A if Pete were going to chose B.

 

[Cieza]

God knows what Pete is going to chose. God would never have known Pete was going to chose A if Pete were going to chose B.

Since you do agree that Pete does have a free choice of either A or B prior to the time he makes the choice, then it doesn't affect his choice one iota that God knows what he's going to choose. However, if God does know Pete's day 3 choice on Pete's day 1, then what God knew on day 1 remains a constant and cannot change, as it becomes part of history.

If on day 1, God knows Pete will choose A on day 3 and Pete instead chooses B, what does that do to God's foreknowledge of day 1 that Pete would choose A on day 3?

If it doesn't negate God's foreknowledge, then one of these must be true:
a) God's foreknowledge of day 1 retroactively changes (essentially changes history) - but not until Pete makes his choice on day 3
b) Even though Pete chooses B, he is forced - against his will - to change his choice to A.
Which of those is true?

 

[elman]

Since you do agree that Pete does have a free choice of either A or B prior to the time he makes the choice, then it doesn't affect his choice one iota that God knows what he's going to choose. However, if God does know Pete's day 3 choice on Pete's day 1, then what God knew on day 1 remains a constant and cannot change, as it becomes part of history.

If on day 1, God knows Pete will choose A on day 3 and Pete instead chooses B, what does that do to God's foreknowledge of day 1 that Pete would choose A on day 3?

If it doesn't negate God's foreknowledge, then one of these must be true:
a) God's foreknowledge of day 1 retroactively changes (essentially changes history) - but not until Pete makes his choice on day 3
b) Even though Pete chooses B, he is forced - against his will - to change his choice to A.
Which of those is true?

God never knows Pete is going to chose A when Pete is going to chose B. God does not make mistakes.

 

[drich0150]

It seems as if you're losing focus of what the original question is and/or you're trying to change the question around to suit your needs.

Actually no. It seems that you are projecting your efforts onto me.

Please remember that I'm the one asking questions and I'm the one looking for answers.

If you are looking for biblically based answers, to the biblically based questions then you have to yield to what the bible says, even if it redefines your position. You can not start off with a biblically based subject like the nature of God, and then make up your own definition of "free will" that forces a contradiction. Why? Because this is the definition of a straw man argument. Again if you wish to create a straw man I will identify it and dismiss it as I have done to this point.

So to help simplify this, let's break this down to the basics. Please answer the following with a yes/no:

1) Can God do anything?
2) Does God know everything?
3) Does a human who ends up making a choice of A or B have the freedom to choose either A or B up until the point in time he ultimately makes his choice?

This thread is about the conflict between omniscience/omnipotence & man's ability to make unimpeded free will decisions. If you wish to discuss definitions of Omniscience/omnipotence, and how it relates to your personal definition of "Free will," then start another thread or PM me.

 

[solarwave]

Now we're making some progress.

Let's say on Pete's day 1, God knows what Pete's choice of A or B will be on Pete's day 3. We'll say God knows Pete will choose A. If God knows the future, then he would know this. If Pete can freely choose A or B, then he could potentially choose B. If he chooses B instead of A, then what does that do to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?

If you can't explain, then you might want to re-examine your views of knowledge vs. time.

I would say that God doesn't have foreknowledge. God knows what will happen at all times, but doesn't exist in time and so doesn't know that something will happen before it happens. If you think of time as a line, God can look down from above to see the whole line.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

One solution is Open Theism. It's not particularly my cup of tea however. For me I don't find the notion all that much of a struggle; having knowledge of X does not make X predetermined. That also said, one could make a speculative case that all possible worlds are known by God, every choice offers a nearly infinite number of possibilities, and these are all within the scope of God's knowledge and providence.

At the end of the day, however, I personally find it more confusing that somehow omniscience somehow counteracts/contradicts or otherwise violates the human capacity of choice; as I fail to see how knowledge is equivalent to predetermination.

-CryptoLutheran