The question is how does God know the free will choice you made between wheaties and Cheerios and get that information back to himself in a previous time frame as far as man is concerned (human time frame).
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This has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with a free choice between A or B, each of which are equally sinful or sinless. Think of it as a free choice between Wheaties or Cheerios. Whether it's sinful or sinless to choose Wheaties or Cheerios is not material to this discussion. What's material is that the choice is freely made - meaning either one can be chosen prior to the point in time the choice is made - and that Christians assume God knows everything and can do anything.
You did not look very hard did you?
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.
Does the Bible ever say Pharoah hardened his own heart?
If God is the puppet master then it would seem to make a lives pointless and make God evil.
No one has addressed this one simple fact. God has a plan for us. If God has a plan, that means He is not just standing back as we create history. If God did not have power over our actions, then His plans would be absolutely worthless.
The Bible does say Pharoah hardened his own heart. No spin gets you out of that fact. Why are you unable to understand that knowing I am going to do something does not mean you made me do it? If you believe God is all powerful, why do you believe God is unable to give us the ability to love others? If we are unable to love others, what is the point of our existence? To simply be progamed robots that act out our pograming? I don't think so. What promise do you think God made that cannot be fulfiled if you and I are able to love others? If you are not going to believe in an evil God, then you should not believe God created some people that had no choice and then God punishes them forever for being what God created them to be. That is evil.The Bible says multiple times that the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. When something is repeated in the Bible, the writer is trying to put greater emphasis on it.
Yes, the Pharaoh's heart was hardened. It does not ever say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, outside of God's influence. We "choose" to do things, and it seems to us that we have freedom of choice, but it's God whose moving us.
How do you explain God entering into the heart of Pharaoh and forcing to be hardened? Or what about the last verse I listed, where it says that God hardened the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they would not understand?
You've evaded my question. I didn't ask if you thought that God would be evil if Predestination exists. And God forgive you for even suggesting such a thing. The God of the Bible is a God of Predestination, and He is most certainly not evil. I'd hold my tongue if I were you.
If free will exists, then either God is not all knowing or He's not all powerful. Either way, He's unable to fulfill His promises. How could you possibly reconcile this if you believe in free will?
You've evaded my question. I didn't ask if you thought that God would be evil if Predestination exists. And God forgive you for even suggesting such a thing. The God of the Bible is a God of Predestination, and He is most certainly not evil. I'd hold my tongue if I were you.
If free will exists, then either God is not all knowing or He's not all powerful. Either way, He's unable to fulfill His promises. How could you possibly reconcile this if you believe in free will?
We're nine pages into this thread and no one except for GrayAngel - who provided the only resolution I know of - has provided an explanation to help resolve the paradox. The only resolution I know of to the paradox is that either God doesn't exist or God does exist, but is not all-knowing and all-powerful.
Think of it this way:
Let's say you're a time traveler. On Wednesday, you travel into the future and observe me choosing Wheaties on Friday. You then return to the present - or Wednesday - and inform me that I will choose Wheaties on Friday. I then choose Cheerios instead. What does that do to your knowledge that I would choose Wheaties?
If Mark chooses Cheerios, can God go to a point in Mark's timeline prior to when he makes his Cheerios choice and inform him that he will choose Cheerios? Please answer with a yes or no. And feel free to provide additional feedback.You keep making God chose the wrong thing. He does not do that. I don't understand how you keep failing to see that. If cheerios are chosen then God never has the knowledge that wheaties will be chosen.---never at any point in time.
Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:
Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?
I have read this thread through in its entirety. Why is this so complicated?
God knows everything and can do anything. Human beings have free choice to choose between A or B. If Pete in your example changes his mind from A to B, God knew that Pete was going to change his mind and knows that ultimately Pete would finally choose what he chooses.
Ergo no free will. What Pete has is simply the illusion of free will. It might provide the sort of emotional satisfaction that Pete desires but none the less, it is not actually free will at all. To borrow from a movie. Someone might be able to lead an oblivious, full and interesting life while being a meat battery plugged into the Matix. But this does not change the fact he lived as a meat battery.
Where did you get that conclusion? It absolutely is Pete's free will to choose 'A' or 'B'. If you choose to believe otherwise, that is your way of forcing your beliefs to fit my response to the OP.
Ergo no free will. What Pete has is simply the illusion of free will. It might provide the sort of emotional satisfaction that Pete desires but none the less, it is not actually free will at all. To borrow from a movie. Someone might be able to lead an oblivious, full and interesting life while being a meat battery plugged into the Matix. But this does not change the fact he lived as a meat battery.
I fail to see how that makes any sense with the other analogy. God knew Pete which letter Pete was going to choose, but he does not control Pete's choice at all. Pete completely had free will, God knew what he would do with his free will.
How is it not that simple.
Conclusion? Nope. Has nothing to do with conclusions. It is a natural result of omniscience(and helped along by omnipresence and being outside of time). If you cannot understand how these concepts result in the illusion of free will and not real free will. Then I have no reason to discuss this with you.
Your response does not make sense. Let me refresh a couple of definitions: Omniscient = God knows everything. Omnipresent = God is present in all places at all times. Tell me how you think that leads to lack of free will by man. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires.
We're nine pages into this thread and no one except for GrayAngel - who provided the only resolution I know of - has provided an explanation to help resolve the paradox. The only resolution I know of to the paradox is that either God doesn't exist or God does exist, but is not all-knowing and all-powerful.
Think of it this way:
Let's say you're a time traveler. On Wednesday, you travel into the future and observe me choosing Wheaties on Friday. You then return to the present - or Wednesday - and inform me that I will choose Wheaties on Friday. I then choose Cheerios instead. What does that do to your knowledge that I would choose Wheaties?
Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?I have read this thread through in its entirety. Why is this so complicated?
God knows everything and can do anything. Human beings have free choice to choose between A or B. If Pete in your example changes his mind from A to B, God knew that Pete was going to change his mind and knows that ultimately Pete would finally choose what he chooses.
No it means you are wrong to think God would not know Pete was actually going to chose B. God would never tell Pete he was going to chose A if Pete was going to chose B. Your last question is illogical. God would not know something wrong if God is infallible.Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?
Please explain how it can be possible for someone/something to infallibly know what you are going to choose at some point in the future if you could still potentially choose something other than what this someone/something knows?
God will only inform Mark he is going to chose Cheerios if that is what Mark is going to chose. In answer to your question yes God can tell Mark he is going to chose Cheerios but only if that is what Mark is going to chose.If Mark chooses Cheerios, can God go to a point in Mark's timeline prior to when he makes his Cheerios choice and inform him that he will choose Cheerios? Please answer with a yes or no. And feel free to provide additional feedback.
Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?
Please explain how it can be possible for someone/something to infallibly know what you are going to choose at some point in the future if you could still potentially choose something other than what this someone/something knows?
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