How can anyone justify not believing in capital punishment?

[Justa Guy]

Again this thread is about murderers and the punishment that God has ordained for such. If you feel compelled to derail a thread please do it elsewhere.

Thanks

Sealacamp

I disagree that my comments are off topic. The question is about murder and it's punishment. As Christians we are to look to the Scriptures for direction. The same scripture that prescribes the punishment for murder also prescribes the same punishment for rebellious children and adulterers. It is not off topic to discuss the issue of consistency.

As for capital punishment it is easy for me there is no question that we have put innocent people to death and there is no question that it will always remain a possibility. One innocent is enough for me to end capital punishment completely. Now if you wish to discuss the hypothetical of a perfect justice system that would be fine too, but as it is currently our justice system is imperfect and it is the reality as opposed to the hypothetical.

 

[Faith.Man]

And you draw the line at the 10 commandments (which doesn't mention punishment for murder) why?

Punishment is not specified in the ten commandments, for any of the commandments. It is detailed later in some specificity that should allow us to extrapolate Mosaic punishment to modern times.

Another question, perhaps I am off the mark here but as I understand it your argument is that since "Do not murder" is one of the 10 commandments and that later in the OT the punishment for murder is given, we should continue to use the prescribed punishment. If my understanding is correct then why do you not support the punishments prescribed for adultery and rebellious children?

We are not under Mosaic law. And we also do not live in a theocracy. If you want to argue that capital punishment no longer applies, please read the following:

Capital Punishment and the Bible

Some people who believe in evolution think it's more "evolved" to not believe in capital punishment. I hope you're not one of those.

 

[sealacamp]

I disagree that my comments are off topic. The question is about murder and it's punishment. As Christians we are to look to the Scriptures for direction. The same scripture that prescribes the punishment for murder also prescribes the same punishment for rebellious children and adulterers. It is not off topic to discuss the issue of consistency.

As for capital punishment it is easy for me there is no question that we have put innocent people to death and there is no question that it will always remain a possibility. One innocent is enough for me to end capital punishment completely. Now if you wish to discuss the hypothetical of a perfect justice system that would be fine too, but as it is currently our justice system is imperfect and it is the reality as opposed to the hypothetical.

So your stance is that we should not follow the guidelines that God has given us in His word. Fine you stand there and I'll stand here.

Sealacamp

 

[wintermile]

On a global scale, using one topic of lawlessness to explain the disservice to social justice in radical terms, I compare those favored to be exempt from judical prosecution to those who serve as opportunities for masses to competively compete with lawlessness activities on the grounds of exercising murder.

Over 30 billion is pocketed by worldly mafias annually for forced labor and commercial sex exploitation via human trafficking. Rarely are 1000s prosecuted for these crimes. Often children are dehumanized to the point of death. Adults too. As believers, we pray for the 'breakdown' of the sex industry, forced labor, for our Lord to convict those party to these crimes of their sin but to also have them turn to Him for repentence and salvation. Believers pray for offenders to be prosecuted. Capital punishment is not sought; justice is sought first through criminal courts. Faith is firm in that He will punish each individual.

Globally, these offenders typically appear above the law. To point out how for centuries leaders and thugs have been above the law is acknowledged by us all. How some of those so called leaders influence global judical systems in that advocation for capital punishipment is to be enforced is a disservice to social justice, but more importantly, it is in direct opposition to His word. Capital puinshipment is lawlessness.

 

[Justa Guy]

Punishment is not specified in the ten commandments, for any of the commandments. It is detailed later in some specificity that should allow us to extrapolate Mosaic punishment to modern times.



We are not under Mosaic law. And we also do not live in a theocracy. If you want to argue that capital punishment no longer applies, please read the following:

Capital Punishment and the Bible

Some people who believe in evolution think it's more "evolved" to not believe in capital punishment. I hope you're not one of those.

I'm sorry if I missed your answer but perhaps you can be more precise why would you insist on capital punishment for murder but not for adultery or rebellious children?

 

[Justa Guy]

So your stance is that we should not follow the guidelines that God has given us in His word. Fine you stand there and I'll stand here.

Sealacamp

So do you stand at the same place and say death to adulterers and rebellious children. Or is it possible that Jesus showed us a better way?

 

[Faith.Man]

I'm sorry if I missed your answer but perhaps you can be more precise why would you insist on capital punishment for murder but not for adultery or rebellious children?

Your answer is in Post #82 above.

 

[sealacamp]

So do you stand at the same place and say death to adulterers and rebellious children.

Don't put words in my mouth, you look foolish enough already.

Sealacamp

 

[BlackSabb]

The greatest commandments: Love the Lord your God. Then LOVE YOUR ENEMY AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF! For you have heard it said, love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. BUT I[Jesus here] SAY TO YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMY!!!

Can we stress this enough? Turn the other cheek? Or do you firmly believe that Jesus never taught us to love our enemies? And that he never taught we should love God before ANYONE OR ANYTHING else?

This is a complete and utter twisting of scripture. You display a Baptist icon, you should know the scriptures better than this. To "turn the other cheek" has got nothing to do with grievous crimes. Turning the other cheek is about letting go of personal hurts against us. Hurts, slander, insults etc that are not breaking the law. For eg, if someone slanders us, then we are told to turn the other cheek.

Nowhere does the Bible suggest that if someone murders, then we are expected to "turn the other cheek". I cannot believe someone displays an icon of their Christian denomination and comes up with this nonsnense interpretation.

Also, as I am the creator of this thread, please STOP getting around this subject by trying to include rapists, adulterers etc. I am talking exclusively about murderers.

 

[wintermile]

This is a complete and utter twisting of scripture. You display a Baptist icon, you should know the scriptures better than this. To "turn the other cheek" has got nothing to do with grievous crimes. Turning the other cheek is about letting go of personal hurts against us. Hurts, slander, insults etc that are not breaking the law. For eg, if someone slanders us, then we are told to turn the other cheek.

Nowhere does the Bible suggest that if someone murders, then we are expected to "turn the other cheek". I cannot believe someone displays an icon of their Christian denomination and comes up with this nonsnense interpretation.

Also, as I am the creator of this thread, please STOP getting around this subject by trying to include rapists, adulterers etc. I am talking exclusively about murderers.

I know that we read the same bible. Of Jesus' word, we read scriptures and study biblical content. To grow quiet in His word and to retell my knowledge of His authority, I will directly state He commanded us to love our enemies even in the face of persecution.

Edgar Jones discusses Jesus' 4 laws in his work The Law Of Jesus. Jesus' law is more strict than Moses' law. Jesus' law is not hidden.

 

[sealacamp]

I know that we read the same bible. Of Jesus' word, we read scriptures and study biblical content. To grow quiet in His word and to retell my knowledge of His authority, I will directly state He commanded us to love our enemies even in the face of persecution.

Edgar Jones discusses Jesus' 4 laws in his work The Law Of Jesus. Jesus' law is more strict than Moses' law. Jesus' law is not hidden.

Loving your enemies has nothing to do with dealing with murders. Dealing with murders has nothing to do with loving them either.

Sealacamp

 

[BlackSabb]

Loving your enemies has nothing to do with dealing with murders. Dealing with murders has nothing to do with loving them either.

Sealacamp

Exactly. I love the way people put their own twisted spin on Biblical verses. Truly, the Bible can be twisted to mean anything for anyone. Everyone from liberals to fundamentalists, from atheists to Westboro members.

"Loving" your enemies is ripped right out of context here. Jesus never suggested that murderers just be "forgiven" and let go in order to love them. I cannot believe that people around here with Christian icons come up with such garbage. Methinks the little cross icon is just put there in many cases in order to legitimately post in Christian exclusive sections of CF, because no actual Christian could possible come up with such contrived nonsense.

There is a time to just forgive someone and let it go, to love your enemies. When someone personally attacks you in some way. Jesus says to forgive and let go indefinately (70 times 7). But that does not apply to murder. When that happens, the state is called in and it is out of your hands. Forgiving them and loving them does not mean letting them go so that they can potentially kill again.

Do I really need to spell out the ABC of Bible basics on a Chrisitian forum in the fundamentalist section, of all sections? I mean, really!

 

[sealacamp]

Do I really need to spell out the ABC of Bible basics on a Chrisitian forum in the fundamentalist section, of all sections? I mean, really!

You know these folks are being intentionally rebellious. In their hearts they know the truth but they reject it in lieu of their feelings or delusion of feelings. In the end they don't do what is right, know what is right, follow sound teachings, nor teach soundly to anyone. Much is said of these folks in the very word they twist, none of it is good.

Sealacamp

 

[wintermile]

I welcome your criticism. I am not one of you, but more, I am not a liberal.

Thank you for originating this thread. Because I have sought scriptual content relevant to His authority upon reactionary conduct, I may now work Matthew 5:44- into my studies of Mark A Copeland's sermon "Growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ" Developing a Christ-like Character. I am in the best stage of my life currently; striving to meet His expectations of me, learning of His reign, I despise myself when I am imperfect, when I have marred Him by even the smallest known sin.

Matthew 5:44-Verse 44 is in red ink

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hurt you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is heaven: for He maketh His sun rise on evil and on the good, and sendith rain on the just and the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans the same? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven perfect.

Summing up a complete understanding of Matthew's scriptures, along with Mark Copeland's sermon, I am able to equate His immoveable patience in guideing us is to become without flaw. He expects us to be stabile and strong in the face of those who are against us or wish to cause us harm. He expects us to communicate and therefore act with Him of their dealings by extending them the same manner we exercise with all while refraining from engaging in negative behavior.

A murderer deserves punishment. A sentence of life in prison without special treatment is punishment.

 

[sealacamp]

A murderer deserves punishment. A sentence of life in prison without special treatment is punishment.

It is not equitable punishment nor is it what God calls for. The blood of the innocents still cries out to Him and people like you block His justice which is called for in this life. The scripture you continually quote is inadequate to address this issue and does not even pertain to this abomination.

Jesus quoted the 6th Commandment in Matt. 19:18 and in Luke 18:20. He quoted it, showing it was still in force, and made no reference to any change in punishment. If there had been such a change, Jesus or the Apostles would have said so, but they didn't.
How can putting someone to death be justified with love? The first thing it shows is love for God and His law-word. God's law, like Himself, is perfect and holy. We express our love for God by keeping His law.

The second thing we show is love for the victim, the victim's family, and all future potential victims and their families.

The third thing is that love for the murderer will try to lead him to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ before the execution is carried out. He has forfeited his right to life on earth but we must try to bring him to eternal life. [We all deserve Hell so we must be merciful even as God was merciful to us.] This does not mean; however, that the execution should be delayed. Speedy justice is always a requirement of Biblical Law [i.e. Deut. 13:14-15; Josh. 7

Polluted or watered-down justice sends the message that God is not really righteous or holy.

So great does God view this subject that if capital punishment is not carried out according to His law, He will eventually judge the nation on behalf of its innocent victims. He may use a dramatic rise in violent crime, war, fatal disease, natural disasters, etc. or any combination thereof. But it will come. Innocent blood must be paid for. If we refuse to make the criminals pay for it with their own blood, God will take our blood as payment [Lev. 26:14-39; Matt. 23:34-35; Rev. 6:10].

Should Christians Support Capital Punishment For Murder?

You can say what you will but you have twisted the word of the Lord into a meaning that is not relevant or accurate to what Jesus said. Does Jesus support a view like yours? I say no.

Sealacamp

 

[wintermile]

I recall Jesus saying all commandments are broken if someone breaks but one of them. Covet means envy and false witness means the same thing as lying.

The belated Ray Stedman took the act of lying seriously. He personally managed Jesus' 8 graces unto himself, allowing the sin and/or habit of lying to be abandoned.

 

[sealacamp]

And what does that have to do with taking the Lords words out of context or the punishment that God has given us for those that commit murder? You would have them live out their lives with no wants at all but the freedom to move about among us, yet that is not what God has directed us to do. The blood of the innocents cry out and you exacerbate that cry to God Almighty.

Sealacamp

 

[StartedAtEly]

Anti death penalty activists don't care about victims rights. You also get brain dead liberal "Christians" saying the death penalty is wrong, despite the Bible's clear support for it

 

[Netbug009]

"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign Lord. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live." -[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ezekiel 18:23 NLT​

​

[/FONT]I'm happy Bin Laden can't hurt anybody else, but I'm sad that it took his life for that to happen.

God sees people as PEOPLE, not monsters, no matter what they have done. Because he LOVES us and wants to free us of our sin. Isn't that the reason we worship him?

Refusing to hate another human being is NOT weakness! I say this as somebody who has hated him and has prayed and prayed and prayed to God to take that feeling away from me, because hating another is a sin.

I say this not to judge, but out of concern for a fellow Christian: You sound like you have a lot of hatred and pain over what has happened and what this person has done to you and the people around you, and I will pray for you.

P.S. Conservative leaning independent.

 

[WilliamB]

And you draw the line at the 10 commandments (which doesn't mention punishment for murder) why?

Another question, perhaps I am off the mark here but as I understand it your argument is that since "Do not murder" is one of the 10 commandments and that later in the OT the punishment for murder is given, we should continue to use the prescribed punishment. If my understanding is correct then why do you not support the punishments prescribed for adultery and rebellious children?

Because then they'd have to kill themselves and their kids for their own sins. It's a conversation of convience. Kill those who commit sins you don't commit and ignore or argue away punishment for sins you do commit. Typical Pharisees thinking. Hypocrisy at it's finest. Fortunately, there only seem to be a couple people supporting this hypocritical view point here and I hope they find God in their heart as, memorizing bible law doesn't make one righteous. It is only by surrendering to the two great commandments that one may have eternal life. Take it or leave it...those are the words of Christ. Hate or love is a personal choice....no lukewarm area in heaven.

Life in prison without possibility of parole is more than just and righteous for murder and it gives them the rest of their life to find the love of God in their hearts while protecting the public indefinitely. Anything beyond that, is done in selfishness, to satisfy earthly and selfish feelings and is no way a sign of obedience to God but rather, obedience to the flesh. God said "thou shalt not kill". How does one condone killing another and call it obedience to God with the same tounge? Are we able to violate the 10 commandments? How is it possible for anyone to violate any of the commandments and laws, if operating within the two great commandments?

It's not possible. So, if your words, thoughts and actions are contradictory to the two great commandments, I can't see how one has time to worry about murderers, when you have your own murderous heart to deal with. You should be more concerned with your own salvation first and then you'll understand the Righteousness of Christ and why your comments are filled with hate and anger and completely void of love.

No love in your heart = No Christ in your life. You're just going through the motions according to the letter of the law, and thus remain a slave to the flesh. (Your REAL god.) "For if your righteousness does not at least exceed that of the Pharisess, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

You want righteousness? The two great commandments are the only way to achieve it. Capital punishment? Far outside of the two. God bless!