• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How can anyone justify not believing in capital punishment?

sealacamp

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2008
1,367
119
66
Fairburn Georgia
✟2,331.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, you choose a covenant. I for one am rolling with Jesus in the New Covenant and that makes the judgement and or punishment for crimes not my responsibility. If they have broken God's laws, it is up to God to judge and punish them. If they have broken man's laws, then it is up to the courts of who's ever law they broke, to do the same.

In addition, did you personally witness OBL commit acts of terror? If you didn't see it, you are bearing false witness. Just because the news told you that, doesn't mean you are an eye witness. So should they go unpunished? I'm not God and I'm not the courts. It's not up to me to decide. I forgive him.

You choose to act in revenge based off the Old Covenant or in love and forgiveness of the New Covenant. What you choose is between you and God.


I never said anything about acting in revenge, you did. So now it is clear where you mind is, not to mention the fact that you refuse to answer the questions posed to you so it is doubly clear just where you sit.

In one breath we pray our enemies will be punished for their sins. In the next breath we pray we won't be.

Maybe for some that is true but for me it is absolutely false.

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Still what does that have to do with not punishing the guilt, specifically those guilty of murder? That was the question not some other issue you may want to dredge up like having enemies or taking revenge. Stay on point and answer this: Should the guilty be punished as God has stated they should? Should we follow through on what it is clear that the Lord requires of us or should we just cling to what ever part of what the Lord tells us is right and ignore the rest allowing us to do what ever we choose?

Sealacamp
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
How is something loving, but not righteous?

Good question! :thumbsup:

Let me try to explain based on the "let everyone out of jail" scenario, posted.

I may out of love, compassion and forgiveness want to free all prisoners. However, righteousness is not about self so, it's not about what I want. It is about putting the needs of others before my own. So, even if I had the power to do such a thing, while although done in love and mercy, one must weigh the consequences to others in the community.

So, to be righteous in the decision making, I have to consider the needs of the community, their desires and what dangers that decision could cause to them. That being said, to make a decision like that, based on my own selfish desires, love or no love, would be selfish and thus unrighteous.

I do not believe in capital punishment simply for the reason that it's possible for them to come to Christ, even while facing life without parole. To me, there's just nothing positive coming from execution. Life without parole means they will never get out. Plus, it gives God more time to work in their hearts and hopefully see them saved before they die. God didn't give up on me while I was in the wilderness, so I'm not going to give up on the next person and cheat them out of additional opportunities to know the Lord. To me, that's the righteous thing to do.

Some say OBL would never have come to Christ but I say to you...there are many who said the same thing about Paul.
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I never said anything about acting in revenge, you did. So now it is clear where you mind is, not to mention the fact that you refuse to answer the questions posed to you so it is doubly clear just where you sit.

Question has been repeatedly answered. Just because it's not the answer you want, doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.


Still what does that have to do with not punishing the guilt, specifically those guilty of murder? That was the question not some other issue you may want to dredge up like having enemies or taking revenge. Stay on point and answer this: Should the guilty be punished as God has stated they should? Should we follow through on what it is clear that the Lord requires of us or should we just cling to what ever part of what the Lord tells us is right and ignore the rest allowing us to do what ever we choose?

Sealacamp
According to the same laws we are to stone our children to death if they will not obey us. Should we stone our children or should we, as you say, cling to whatever part of what the Lord tells us is right and ignore the rest?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,057
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
WilliamB said:
Good question! :thumbsup:

Let me try to explain based on the "let everyone out of jail" scenario, posted.

I may out of love, compassion and forgiveness want to free all prisoners. However, righteousness is not about self so, it's not about what I want. It is about putting the needs of others before my own. So, even if I had the power to do such a thing, while although done in love and mercy, one must weigh the consequences to others in the community.

So, to be righteous in the decision making, I have to consider the needs of the community, their desires and what dangers that decision could cause to them. That being said, to make a decision like that, based on my own selfish desires, love or no love, would be selfish and thus unrighteous.

I do not believe in capital punishment simply for the reason that it's possible for them to come to Christ, even while facing life without parole. To me, there's just nothing positive coming from execution. Life without parole means they will never get out. Plus, it gives God more time to work in their hearts and hopefully see them saved before they die. God didn't give up on me while I was in the wilderness, so I'm not going to give up on the next person and cheat them out of additional opportunities to know the Lord. To me, that's the righteous thing to do.

Some say OBL would never have come to Christ but I say to you...there are many who said the same thing about Paul.

So your objections aren't biblical, just emotional. That's all I needed to know.
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So your objections aren't biblical, just emotional. That's all I needed to know.

The Word of God is written on your heart. That's what's so wonderful about the New Covenant. We are free to act in righteousness and not the letter of the law. For the letter of the law brings forth death, while the Spirit brings forth life. That's as biblical as it gets and I'm so thankful that I don't have to follow the law while denying the Spirits righteousness through me.

Praise God and may God lead you into all Truth!
 
Upvote 0

sealacamp

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2008
1,367
119
66
Fairburn Georgia
✟2,331.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Question has been repeatedly answered. Just because it's not the answer you want, doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.
You never answered the question, you evaded it. That is, unfortunately, all too typical. And we were talking about punishing murders not stoning children. Trying to derail the conversation to avoid the specific subject at hand is a typical deceptive ploy as well.


For the letter of the law brings forth death, while the Spirit brings forth life.

Allowing murderers to go unpunished as God has put forth for us to do brings forth death too, yet that is what you are advocating.


Sealacamp
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Allowing murderers to go unpunished as God has put forth for us to do brings forth death too, yet that is what you are advocating.

Sealacamp

You can call it what you want, but I trust God and if He says He'll deal with it, then I know it's true. He didn't call you or I to bring death to anyone so you are adding to the bible things that don't belong. Judgment and punishment are God's alone. Are you calling Him a liar? Why are you so insistent on doing God's job for him?

As I've said in other threads, I think peoples love for america has turned into out right idolatry. Jesus didn't "rep" a country. He had no home because He knew we are not of this world. I could care less about "terrorism". I face a real terrorist everyday in the form of Satan. Muslim extremists, Christian extremists and all extremists for that matter don't scare me. I have the Spirit of God in me. You can't scare me with earthly nonsense and certainly not enough to make me serve the devil by committing acts of murder against someone else. Murder is wrong, period. Just because you think it's justified, doesn't change that fact.

I know I've digressed a bit, but welcome to online forums.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,044
9,489
✟421,138.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Really? Then why did He reattach the solidesr ear and say no, when they came to condemn Him? Because He is all mercy.
That's a red herring to the question of whether the death penalty could have been rightly applied to the adulterous woman had conditions been different, or whether the death penalty is right at all. I don't deny that Jesus is merciful, but remember that he also condemns. "All mercy" wouldn't be correct, though he is very merciful.

Trying to put words in Jesus' mouth is just wrong. He did what He did and said what He said and it is sufficient until His return. Don't add to that based on your own beliefs.
I agree with this and do my best to practice it. Every Christian must do the same. But I haven't put words in Jesus mouth in this discussion.

It's not about conflict between covenants. The law is just and good even though we are free from it. It's a matter of righteousness, not law. In order to seek to have someone executed you must harbor hatred, anger or revenge in your heart. Not love. You're not suggesting execution out of love are you? I seriously doubt that. This is where the problem lies. Not in the law. We are free from the law to do what is right by walking in love through the Spirit. We can not be walking in love through the Spirit if we are harboring hatred, anger and revenge in our hearts.
If the law is just and good, then the commands for capital punishment are just and good. If one must harbor hatred, anger, or revenge in your heart to seek to have someone executed, then the law must be calling for hatred or anger at certain times, and call it "good." You've just put yourself in a bind with your own words.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's a red herring to the question of whether the death penalty could have been rightly applied to the adulterous woman had conditions been different, or whether the death penalty is right at all. I don't deny that Jesus is merciful, but remember that he also condemns. "All mercy" wouldn't be correct, though he is very merciful.

By ALL I don't suggest all will be saved. But for those who are saved, He is all merciful. And we are to strive to walk as He did, correct?


I agree with this and do my best to practice it. Every Christian must do the same. But I haven't put words in Jesus mouth in this discussion.
If you're suggesting that Jesus supports capital punishment then you are putting words in His mouth. Because He's never said that nor suggested it. In fact, His actions of mercy throughout His life contradict that thought process, all together. If I've misunderstood your original posts, then this point is off topic and I apologize for making an assuming based on that misunderstanding.


If the law is just and good, then the commands for capital punishment are just and good. If one must harbor hatred, anger, or revenge in your heart to seek to have someone executed, then the law must be calling for hatred or anger at certain times, and call it "good." You've just put yourself in a bind with your own words.

Not at all. The law is not for man to impose. It is for God to judge by, as we as Christians are free from the law. The law is what God uses to judge the unrighteous as laws are not created for the righteous but for the unrighteous, alone.

What governments do has nothing to do with our walk with Christ through the Spirit. We don't have to believe as the courts of non-belivers do. We are to walk as Christ did, in mercy, love and forgiveness. That was Jesus' whole point, is it's not about the law. It's about love, mercy and forgiveness. Exactly what we want from Him is exactly what He expects us to show to others. So, if we expect Him to give us love, mercy and forgiveness, then we need to do the same, without exception. For how we judge, He will judge us and by what measure we judge, He will judge us by that same measure.

It's my belief that most people are using the bible incorrectly, which is evident by the amount of discussions about sin, sin, sin and law, law, law., probably out of no fault of their own. But God did leave instructions on how to use the scriptures:

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17

Notice this doesn't say, "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in the judgement of sin or the law." It doesn't say that, because that's not what scripture is for. You are free from the law and sin is dead having been nailed to the cross. We are to be walking in righteousness, not judging by the letter of the law. You can not serve two covenants. If you serve the law, then you will be judged by the law. And to break one law is to break them all. Or, you serve righteousness and are under grace. The choice is yours my brother but I pray ALL will choose grace because ALL fall short of the Glory of God.

Christ would not condemn OBL to death by capital punishment, on this earth and there is no scriptural evidence to support such a charge. How OBL will be judged once dead, is God's decision alone. Our focus should be on offering love, mercy and forgiveness in our hearts and if we're supporting the death of someone else then our hearts are not filled with love, mercy and forgiveness but rather, hatred, anger and revenge.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,044
9,489
✟421,138.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
By ALL I don't suggest all will be saved. But for those who are saved, He is all merciful. And we are to strive to walk as He did, correct?
We are to walk as he did, but that has blessed little to do with the death penalty as an institution.

If you're suggesting that Jesus supports capital punishment then you are putting words in His mouth. Because He's never said that nor suggested it. In fact, His actions of mercy throughout His life contradict that thought process, all together. If I've misunderstood your original posts, then this point is off topic and I apologize for making an assuming based on that misunderstanding.
On the contrary; if you think Jesus abrogated the death penalty, you are putting words in his mouth. The fact is, Jesus never insinuated that the death penalty itself should be abolished, or even that the woman caught in adultery didn't deserve it. He simply had mercy on her.

Not at all. The law is not for man to impose. It is for God to judge by, as we as Christians are free from the law. The law is what God uses to judge the unrighteous as laws are not created for the righteous but for the unrighteous, alone.
Romans 13:1-7 tells us tells us the place of government, and part of that is to enforce laws. The rulers bear a sword for a purpose, and for a good reason that we'll find in Genesis 9:6.

This isn't to say the church itself has that job, but the job still legitimately exists. If it legitimately exists, I don't see how disagreeing with its existence is standing up for the truth.

Christ would not condemn OBL to death by capital punishment, on this earth and there is no scriptural evidence to support such a charge. How OBL will be judged once dead, is God's decision alone. Our focus should be on offering love, mercy and forgiveness in our hearts and if we're supporting the death of someone else then our hearts are not filled with love, mercy and forgiveness but rather, hatred, anger and revenge.
It is the soldier's job to kill terrorists. It is the missionary's job to convert them. The soldiers got to him and had success with their mission before a missionary was able to. I'm not going to shed a tear over that.
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We are to walk as he did, but that has blessed little to do with the death penalty as an institution.

You're comparing and earthly institution to the righteousness of Jesus. The only one that matters to me is Jesus. What the government chooses to do, it's own business.

On the contrary; if you think Jesus abrogated the death penalty, you are putting words in his mouth. The fact is, Jesus never insinuated that the death penalty itself should be abolished, or even that the woman caught in adultery didn't deserve it. He simply had mercy on her.
You never heard me say any such thing. I simply look at the gospel of Jesus and understand what He wants from me. The government laws have nothing to do with this determination.

Romans 13:1-7 tells us tells us the place of government, and part of that is to enforce laws. The rulers bear a sword for a purpose, and for a good reason that we'll find in Genesis 9:6.
Again, I don't serve government or America for that matter. I serve the Kingdom of God. You continuing to tell me what a government can or can't do, is irrelevant to me. A government is going to do whatever is in it's best interest and has no purpose in serving God or righteousness outside of it's own worldy interests.

This isn't to say the church itself has that job, but the job still legitimately exists. If it legitimately exists, I don't see how disagreeing with its existence is standing up for the truth.
Righteousness is the only truth.

It is the soldier's job to kill terrorists. It is the missionary's job to convert them. The soldiers got to him and had success with their mission before a missionary was able to. I'm not going to shed a tear over that.
I forgive OBL and pray that God has mercy on his soul, just as I pray He will have mercy on mine. God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,915
5,728
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟373,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
WilliamB, the only determination as to whether or not God has mercy on the soul of someone who dies is whether or not that person has been saved by grace through faith by the Lord Jesus Christ.
After death, it is too late for a person to accept Christ and believe in Him as the Savior for the forgiveness of sin.
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
WilliamB, the only determination as to whether or not God has mercy on the soul of someone who dies is whether or not that person has been saved by grace through faith by the Lord Jesus Christ.
After death, it is too late for a person to accept Christ and believe in Him as the Savior for the forgiveness of sin.

What does that have to do with what I choose to pray for?
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,915
5,728
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟373,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What does that have to do with what I choose to pray for?


You can pray all that you want for the soul of someone who has died. But those prayers are going to do absolutely nothing at all to change whether or not that soul is in heaven or hell.
 
Upvote 0

WilliamB

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2011
2,315
58
Miami, FL
✟2,869.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You can pray all that you want for the soul of someone who has died. But those prayers are going to do absolutely nothing at all to change whether or not that soul is in heaven or hell.

Does what I pray, somehow hinder your ability to walking in Righteousness?
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,915
5,728
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟373,995.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0