How are you saved?

[fhansen]

Insofar as our justification is always understood as God declaring us just based upon the perfect merit of Christ alone, that Christ Himself and alone is our righteousness before God; I fully agree with this.

Where I'm certain we differ is that I maintain that justification and sanctification ought to be understood as very distinct things: working out our salvation in fear in trembling is sanctification, our cooperation with God through good works; such does not render us just or righteous before God (Coram Deo), but rather righteous before our fellow human beings (Coram Mundus or Coram Hominibus).

What I am before God is found exclusively in Christ apart from myself as pure grace.
What I am being made into is the power and work of God through the Spirit lived in good works for our neighbor.

Through sanctification we are being conformed to the image of Christ, undergoing Theosis until the last and final day.

Justification is the declaration of man as righteous before God on Christ's account. Not, as in Reformed theology as merely the starting point of faith; it is the always-and-ever present reality that we are justified before God in Christ. So, for example, I am justified before God in the Eucharist.

Yes, we would disagree substantially here. Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14), without sanctity no one will see the Lord (Rom 2:7, 6:22). To put it best: without love no one will see the Lord. Theosis is necessary for salvation, Jesus' purpose to make us beings like Himself, who love as He does, not merely forgiven sinners.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." Rom 6:10-12

"But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Rom 6:17-18

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, we would disagree substantially here. Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14), without sanctity no one will see the Lord (Rom 2:7, 6:22). To put it best: without love no one will see the Lord. Theosis is necessary for salvation, Jesus' purpose to make us beings like Himself, who love as He does, not merely forgiven sinners.

"We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Rom 6:4

"The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." Rom 6:10-12

"But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." Rom 6:17-18

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

Of course that is what God wants, that we might be conformed to the image of His Son, the fullness of the Divine Image and its perfect expression and fullness (in our Lord) is God's work in and toward us--which will be made full and final and perfect in the end.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." - 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

"See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies Himself as He is pure." - 1 John 3:1-3

The work of sanctification, of holiness, is continual in this life. Of course we are being trained in love and holiness and righteousness through God's gracious power and work in our lives through His Word and Sacraments, in our communion with Him as members of His Mystical Body, with the Holy Spirit in us, working even in our very bodily members that our own bodies might be disciplined and brought before God as living sacrifices.

But that isn't what gets me on God's good side. That isn't what gets me from point A: me, here, a miserable little sinner that sins and who despises God, despises my neighbor created in God's image, enslaved to my passions and my own dead and dying mortality, colluding with my heart, mind, and actions with my own death, and with the power of death through sin; to point B: a beloved child of God that is justified before God on Christ's account which I have received as the pure gift of God apart from myself.

When I stand before God, I have nothing but my own shame and nakedness to offer. In my poverty God in His wealth gives me the full treasury of His grace which is in Jesus Christ. My wretchedness is washed in the blood of the Holy Lamb of God, the stains of guilt that bloody my hands and feet and lips which weighs like a thousand ton weight of condemnation through the Law are lifted and expunged. The Jubilee is declared from heaven through the Word made flesh, and He accomplishes what He declared to accomplish: the slaves are freed, debts are canceled, the prison doors swung open, and the healing of the world can begin in God's Messiah.

Good works, and sanctification generally, is not about how we climb up some ladder to God. It is how God resides in His people, in His Church, amid this world of broken sinners (ourselves included). We are being changed day by day, not only to train us and to make us fit for what is hoped for and promised; but because the Commandment "Love your neighbor" is to be actually lived FOR our neighbor. The man who is too busy trying to please God with his works does not have time to love their neighbor, and so violates the commandment and is therefore condemned by the very commandment he sought to obey.

So the words of the Apostle are always true,

"The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me." - Romans 7:10-11

So is every one who seeks to be righteous before God by obeying the commandments of God. For whether the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" or "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" we have failed the commandment a thousand times within our own hearts each and every time we give in to anger, grudges, or bitterness of any kind. Our venomous stings of words, our engaging in ugly gossip, brewing a cocktail of selfishness and loathing toward others. We practically sweat sin out each and every one of our pores. No one can stand before God as righteous because of what he or she has done--not even what we have done in cooperation with God's grace.

Our cooperation with God's grace is not that we should be justified before God; but that we should be righteous toward our neighbor in love. We cooperate with God in loving the world and tending to the broken wounds of the world--we come in the name of the Great Physician to bandage up, to tend to. Christ came into the trenches of the world, and now He calls us to do the same.

At no point should it be assumed that I'm sitting here saying that the Christian can live a life of willful and unrepentant sin and still "be saved" as though salvation were somehow something one merely needs to check a box or sign on the dotted line. And it's worth noting that the Lutheran Confessions make it pretty explicitly clear that mortal sin and faith cannot coexist. Lutherans acknowledge the full danger of sin upon the life of the believer; we know Christ's warnings and the warnings of the Apostles. We know the Parable of the Sower, and indeed take it seriously

Salvation is neither a contract that we sign on to and then get a free ticket to heaven; nor is salvation man trying to get himself right with God.

See my signature: Salvation is God coming down. Salvation is the Incarnation, it is justification, it is sanctification, it is resurrection, and it is the restoration of all things.

Salvation is not about me trying to "get into heaven". And I believe there is in fact danger in that kind of thinking: the danger of a faithless and Christless Christianity. Because our salvation is not about us getting swag after we die; but about how God is healing and transforming the world in Christ--the salvation and hope which is for the world in Jesus--and God's invitation of us to come and be part of that. Thus good works are absolutely part of our salvation, they just aren't the part that gets us from being outside the kingdom to inside the kingdom, only God by His grace alone does that. And only faith can cling to that grace, and thus keep us through the fire of judgment.

But every passage you quoted I fully affirm, and fully affirm as being about the necessity of a life of Christian discipleship and devotion to holiness.

But that holiness which I strive for in this life isn't something I am going to achieve in this life. None of us will. Nobody can. And so that holiness is important, not because we are supposed to reach a certain threshold of holiness in order to share in what God has promised us by His grace; but because it is about how we live in relation toward our neighbors.

God doesn't need you to be holy in order to love and accept you in Jesus Christ (He already does that). God wants you to be holy because He is holy, and there is a world of His beloved creatures that need love and care. A roof over their head, food and drink to sustain their bodily needs, medical care for their physical, mental, and emotional needs; our neighbor needs out friendship, our compassion, our kindness, our generosity--all the fruits of the Spirit we are called to have and exhibit in our lives.

Far too frequently "holiness" has been co-opted as a bludgeoning weapon for the hypocrites and the vipers who "have a form of religion but deny the power thereof"; and so the very name of holiness is sullied. A hundred billion sins have been committed in the name of holiness. So we must understand what holiness is, what godliness is; not as things to puff up ourselves, to inflame our passions, to lift our heads up on clouds of glory like the builders of Babel. Holiness is found in lowliness, humility, in kindness, in smallness, in quiet, and in suffering. Holiness is the fruit of a life lived being shaped by the Holy Spirit, and through many tears, many wounds, and through trial and tribulation. I am not holy, and God forbid that I ever call myself such; but by the grace of God I pray that God make me holy, and teach me holiness.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Buzzard3]

Those who once claimed to have believed the gospel, but are now atheists, demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Such people believed in vain - without cause or purpose, to no effect.

Your argument seems to be that only those believers who last the distance are "sealed with the Holy Spirit" ... those who believe for a while but then fall away into unbelief never received the seal ... because "their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start".

If that is your position, I think it is reasonable, but it would mean that those who heard and "believed" the gospel in Eph 1:13-14 (see below) refers to only some who heard and believed - the stayers. It doesn't refer to those believers who ended up losing their faith.

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Just out of curiosity have you ever read the works of St. John Cassian? Historically they were preferred in both the Eastern and Western churches to St. Augustine. Of course Luther was an Augustinian and one expects Augustinian influence in classical Lutheran theology, so I am not criticizing you, I am merely curious if you were acquainted with the author of the alternative refutation of Pelagius that was originally more popular, and is still completely dominant among the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, despite being a Latin theologian (the Orthodox also love St. Ambrose, St. Isidore of Seville and St. Vincent of Lerins, and the Eastern Orthodox really love St. Gregory the Great).

Fun fact: until the past 150 years or so, there wasn’t even a troparion and kontakion to commemorate St. Augustine in the Eastern Orthodox Church, and while the Oriental Orthodox theoretically regard him as a saint, I don’t believe he is on their liturgical calendar, unlike, for example, Pope St. Sixtus, who has an entire anaphora commemorating him in the Syriac Orthodox Church.

I admit that I'm rather unfamiliar with John Cassian; though I am familiar with the lack of Augustinian influence in the East.

The following is somewhat rambly, though I hope still relevant to the conversation.

My Lutheran bias toward Augustine should be freely admitted here. I have found in the writings of Augustine something that I have frequently found quite rare, something that I've really only experienced while reading the writings of the Apostle Paul himself and also some of the writings of Luther. I admit that it's something rather subjective, a fondness or sense of familiarity with the spiritual struggles of these people. I read Paul, Augustine, or Luther and I see myself in them--the scared, lonely, struggling sinner desperately desiring peace with God--and the profound truth that there is peace with God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The God who shows Himself to us in the Gospel is the God of peace who washes clean the guilt-wracked conscience.

But I also freely admit that I suffer from certain mental health issues, depression and anxiety can form a potent cocktail to create a deep existential dread with regard to religion. I've been fairly forthcoming about my struggles with scrupulosity in the past. Take a person who suffers from a bad case of self loathing and then tell him that it's his job to do better and please God through his efforts is a recipe for spiritual death. I can't even please myself with my efforts, and I hardly think I have higher standards than the Almighty. The guilt of that--a sense of guilt that emerges from the truth and reality of the Law (I am a sinner), magnified many times over by systems of religious thought that emphasized conformity to a particular moralistic lifestyle and conforming to external ideas of "holiness" did nothing but terrorize my conscience. The terror of hell, it seemed, was nothing but a misstep along the way; and I grew up believing in "once saved always saved", which I was told was supposed to give me assurance but always terrorized me all the more.

Because the flip side of OSAS is the constant risk of not being a "real Christian" but just a fake Christian (and the many names that frequently are associated with that, such as a nominal Christian, a lukewarm Christian, a "not on fire" Christian, etc). So OSAS did not say to me, "Christ died for you, trust in Jesus, He has your back" it said, "Real Christians look like X, Y, and Z and anyone who isn't isn't a real Christian"--which of course just emphasized to me that maybe I was a fake Christian. Real Christians overcome sin, I was taught, but here I was, a small confused child becoming an adolescent. When I hear most of my friends talk about how awkward puberty was, I recognize a lot of the awkward things, but my experience was also such that I was convinced my raging new hormones were a sure sign of the fact that I wasn't saved. And I don't believe that this was the intent of ANYONE, so I'm not blaming anyone; but I am keenly aware of these sorts of experiences. The experience of the tortured conscience full of guilt; and I also can confidently and freely and joyfully say that the preaching of the Gospel really does do what it promises.

"The man that feels his guilt abound,
And knows himself unclean,
Will find the gospel's joyful sound,
Is welcome news to him." - The Gospel is Good News Indeed, Hymn

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Danthemailman]

Your argument seems to be that only those believers who last the distance are "sealed with the Holy Spirit" ... those who believe for a while but then fall away into unbelief never received the seal ... because "their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start".

If that is your position, I think it is reasonable, but it would mean that those who heard and "believed" the gospel in Eph 1:13-14 (see below) refers to only some who heard and believed - the stayers. It doesn't refer to those believers who ended up losing their faith.

"in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of [God's] own possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Strong's Concordance
arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

Strong's Greek: 728. ἀῤῥαβών (arrabón) -- an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

 

[The Liturgist]

I admit that I'm rather unfamiliar with John Cassian; though I am familiar with the lack of Augustinian influence in the East.

The following is somewhat rambly, though I hope still relevant to the conversation.

My Lutheran bias toward Augustine should be freely admitted here. I have found in the writings of Augustine something that I have frequently found quite rare, something that I've really only experienced while reading the writings of the Apostle Paul himself and also some of the writings of Luther. I admit that it's something rather subjective, a fondness or sense of familiarity with the spiritual struggles of these people. I read Paul, Augustine, or Luther and I see myself in them--the scared, lonely, struggling sinner desperately desiring peace with God--and the profound truth that there is peace with God in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The God who shows Himself to us in the Gospel is the God of peace who washes clean the guilt-wracked conscience.

But I also freely admit that I suffer from certain mental health issues, depression and anxiety can form a potent cocktail to create a deep existential dread with regard to religion. I've been fairly forthcoming about my struggles with scrupulosity in the past. Take a person who suffers from a bad case of self loathing and then tell him that it's his job to do better and please God through his efforts is a recipe for spiritual death. I can't even please myself with my efforts, and I hardly think I have higher standards than the Almighty. The guilt of that--a sense of guilt that emerges from the truth and reality of the Law (I am a sinner), magnified many times over by systems of religious thought that emphasized conformity to a particular moralistic lifestyle and conforming to external ideas of "holiness" did nothing but terrorize my conscience. The terror of hell, it seemed, was nothing but a misstep along the way; and I grew up believing in "once saved always saved", which I was told was supposed to give me assurance but always terrorized me all the more.

Because the flip side of OSAS is the constant risk of not being a "real Christian" but just a fake Christian (and the many names that frequently are associated with that, such as a nominal Christian, a lukewarm Christian, a "not on fire" Christian, etc). So OSAS did not say to me, "Christ died for you, trust in Jesus, He has your back" it said, "Real Christians look like X, Y, and Z and anyone who isn't isn't a real Christian"--which of course just emphasized to me that maybe I was a fake Christian. Real Christians overcome sin, I was taught, but here I was, a small confused child becoming an adolescent. When I hear most of my friends talk about how awkward puberty was, I recognize a lot of the awkward things, but my experience was also such that I was convinced my raging new hormones were a sure sign of the fact that I wasn't saved. And I don't believe that this was the intent of ANYONE, so I'm not blaming anyone; but I am keenly aware of these sorts of experiences. The experience of the tortured conscience full of guilt; and I also can confidently and freely and joyfully say that the preaching of the Gospel really does do what it promises.

"The man that feels his guilt abound,
And knows himself unclean,
Will find the gospel's joyful sound,
Is welcome news to him." - The Gospel is Good News Indeed, Hymn

-CryptoLutheran

Note that nothing in St. John Cassian or the Eastern theology which relies on his refutation of Pelagius rather than that of St. Augustine is remotely OSAS. OSAS is a very recent innovation, indeed, St. Augustine was an opponent of the Donatists, who while not actually descended from the Montanists and other rigorists who denied that one could be forgiven for sins committed after baptism (it was for this reason that many, including St. Constantine, deferred baptism at conversion in favor of baptism in extremis) were certainly following that kind of erroneous opposite of OSAS that was the Donatist error, which is of course that sacraments are invalid if performed by an unworthy celebrant (to which I would respond, what celebrant since Christ has truly been worthy? And I believe Augustine similarly disputed with them at length and without result, as has been depicted in at least one Renaissance painting, until Pelagius came along with a greater heresy).

OSAS of course represents the opposite of Montanist rigorism; like Pelagianism and Universalism, or Monophysitism and Nestorianism, both Lutheranism and Eastern Christianity thread the needle between these errors.

 

[Buzzard3]

An example of a ‘descriptive’ passage of scripture would be 1 John 2:3-4. By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we “keep” (Greek word “tereo” - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. So the former is descriptive of believers and the latter is descriptive of unbelievers. You use the word “believer” too loosely.

What? Why do you think the latter is descriptive of "unbelievers"? ... they say, "I have come to know him".

And why would John be concerned about unbelievers not keeping God's commandments?

Why would John call an unbeliever a "liar" for not keeping God's commandments?

 

[Buzzard3]

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED

Sounds like illogical nonsense to me. If you have already been "saved", after that it doesn't matter what you do. It seems to me that, according to your doctrine, a "saved" person can give into any temptation and do all sorts of evil ... and still be "saved"!

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

 

[Danthemailman]

What? Why do you think the latter is descriptive of "unbelievers"? ... they say, "I have come to know him".

And why would John be concerned about unbelievers not keeping God's commandments?

Why would John call an unbeliever a "liar" for not keeping God's commandments?

We know that we have come to know Him (1 John 2:3) is in contrast with the one who says I have come to know Him.

That reminds me of James 2:14 -“says/claims” to have faith but has no works..can that faith save him? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. No evidence of authentic faith. Unbeliever.

Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence that we have come to know Him. “Does not keep His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him” is not descriptive language of someone who is born of God.

John certainly is concerned about unbelievers because it’s not hard to find them mixed in with genuine believers. (1 John 2:19) John also makes a clear contrast between “children of God” and “children of the devil” in 1 John 3:9-10.

 

[Danthemailman]

Sounds like illogical nonsense to me. If you have already been "saved", after that it doesn't matter what you do. It seems to me that, according to your doctrine, a "saved" person can give into any temptation and do all sorts of evil ... and still be "saved"!

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

Sounds like a straw man argument to me. Romans 8:13 (AMP) - for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever.

Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

They can think what they like, but it won't help them come Judgement Day ... they will all be judged by Christ and he won't give a cracker about what they think.

First of all, Jesus was judged in place of every Christian, He took their sins on the cross and died for them. Not only that but He took God's just wrath for their sins, God no longer remembers their sins. Christians will have to give account for their life, yes, but they are all going to Heaven. Does that mean Christians can do whatever they want? No, they ought to obey God, if they do not, God will discipline them, He will allow such difficult circumstances they will repent and return to Him with all their heart, but they are saved from the moment they are born of the Holy Spirit as they are now sealed as children of God.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 8:1 "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

John 6:40 "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

"HOPE"

Yes, hope that no matter what happens, God is always with them and that Jesus will one day come back and take them to Heavenly Father. This is the hope Jesus was speaking of, that despite everything bad that is about to happen to them, they know they have hope in Jesus who is now in Heaven, and no one can take them from Him.

Did Jesus send you a ticket to Heaven when you got saved?

You do not know that you are saved? If you do not know, then you do not know that Jesus died for your sins, and you are unsaved. Christianity is no Islam, were allah tells that we should do good deeds because it will weigh on allah but there is no guarantee they will go to heaven, they might...so a muslim is never assured of his salvation, Christian is from the moment he believes. God gives him a new heart that recognizes and loves Jesus and always wants to do what pleases God. Don't you know that bad tree cannot bring good fruit and good tree a bad fruit? Fruit of the Holy Spirit, that only Holy Spirit can produce, so unless you are sealed by Him, you will never produce this fruit

How do you know you won't lose your faith one day? Do you have a crystal ball?

When a Christian is unfaithful, God will discipline Him and bring Him to repentance. If someone who claims to be a Christian lives in sin, but God does not discipline him and he does not repent, he never was a Christian in first place. God always disciplines His children because He loves them dearly.

But on the other hand, a believer can lose his hope of salvation in this life thru loss of faith or serious sin.

And what sin this would be? Because there is no sin God cannot forgive. Jesus blood is worthy enough to wash away all the sins of every human being that ever lived. IF there was, well then He could not forgive any sin.

It's interesting that, unlike the born-again Christians you mention, the writers of the NT didn't know they were "saved already"

Oh they knew from Pentecost.
Do you really think you can add anything to the cross? Do not you know that we are saved by grace alone? Nothing can be added. All of our good deeds cannot save us from one sin, there is nothing we can to do be saved, that is why Jesus came and die for us, because none of us has any hope, no faith, nothing, we are spiritually dead. Only those who have the Spirit of God in them, will endure until the end, the false Christians will fall away.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

It’s hardly a false teaching considering there are around 200 verses in the New Testament, in the Gospels, the Epistles and I would argue, Acts, that contradict OSAS. Fortunately for my aching hands I do not have to type them, since someone kindly compiled 170 of them.*

The only way you can get any form of OSAS is with Calvinist predestination, but you can’t get there while retaining the Patristic - Arminian or Lutheran soteriological models. And the only way you can do that is to deny theee people were saved in the first place, which is possible, although as an interpretive model its more of a stretch and relies very heavily on St. Augustine, being much less “sola scriptura” than claimed.

*Note that the link is not an endorsement of their doctrine or of evert verse they put forward as an example of OSAS; I reject OSAS because the Early Church Fathers, even St. Augustine, rejected it, unanimously, and when we’re talking about people like St. Athanasius who defended the Christian faith in the deity of our Lord against Arius at Nicaea, and was the originator of our current 27 book New Testament canon (all canons proposed prior to that which he, blazing a new trail, ordered in the Church of Alexandria in an encyclical to the bishops of under his Patriarchal jurisdiction, made mandatory, were mere suggestions, and differed from the Athanasian canon by either including books he deprecated, like the Shepherd of Hermas, or excluding books that he included, for example, Jude, James, Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John, the Pastoral Epistles of Paul and the Apocalypse), or St. Basil the Great, who invented the hospital, or St. Irenaeus of Lyons, who discredited Gnosticism and insisted on the use of only our four canonical Gospels, their view is sufficiently authoritative to convince me. But for those who require scripture, the evidence is overwhelming. I would also note that while I cannot refute Calvinism scripturally, I can refute the idea that a Calvinist can be certain of their election during this lifetime, because the same verses that refute an Arminian OSAS also make it impossible for a Calvinist to be certain of the authenticity of their faith.

This is of benefit, because Christians who are utterly confident in their sanctity and election may be tempted by pride and may be more easily lured into immoral conduct based on spiritual delusion based on a false sense of security. This makes OSAS a dangerous doctrine, because it does nothing to promote good works, which most believers in Sola Fide consider to be the fruits of a living faith.

Salvation cannot be lost. Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 8:1 "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

John 6:40 "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The moment you believe you become a child of God. No child of God will go to hell. Don't you know that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was perfect? He took God's wrath for the sins of the believer. Jesus will never lose one of His sheep, if salvation can be lost, then Jesus would lose a sheep and He lied which makes Him a sinner which we know is not true. If salvation can be lost, then we would all lose it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
None of us is righteous, not one, none of us does good, not one, not one of us deserves Heaven, we all belonged to Hell yesterday, that is why the Son of God came, to save us, because we are spiritually dead, in cable of saving ourselves. We cannot pay for our sins. There is nothing in us for God's heart to desire, God finds something in Himself to love us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Salvation cannot be lost. Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 8:1 "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

John 6:40 "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The moment you believe you become a child of God. No child of God will go to hell. Don't you know that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was perfect? He took God's wrath for the sins of the believer. Jesus will never lose one of His sheep, if salvation can be lost, then Jesus would lose a sheep and He lied which makes Him a sinner which we know is not true. If salvation can be lost, then we would all lose it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
None of us is righteous, not one, none of us does good, not one, not one of us deserves Heaven, we all belonged to Hell yesterday, that is why the Son of God came, to save us, because we are spiritually dead, in cable of saving ourselves. We cannot pay for our sins. There is nothing in us for God's heart to desire, God finds something in Himself to love us.

If a Christian stops being a Christian, did they ever have faith? If we answer no, does not this not call into question our own salvation? Surely those who called themselves Christian and said they had faith believed themselves to be, even if they were mistaken. It is therefore entirely possible that you or I are simply lying to ourselves about our faith, and we don't actually have faith at all.

Or is there a way to know or at least have confidence that our faith is true faith rather than false faith? That we are real Christians rather than fake ones?

These are genuine inquiries to spark further conversation and explore ideas further.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

When I stand before God, I have nothing but my own shame and nakedness to offer.

When we stand before God, He expects us to have a lot more to offer than that, considering the grace He's given, considering everything his Son did to bring that grace to us. We're to invest our talents, to wash our robes, and He'll clothe us anew, to the extent that we want that, that we want His will to be done rather than continuing to appeal to our abolute depravity and sinfulness. Because we're forgiven now! We're new creations, able to go, and sin no more even as the struggle will continue in this life. We may not know fully now but yet we still know, we know Him, and the transforamtion into His image begins at justification and continues throughout our lives. Otherwise we show that we haven't even really begun the journey.

Meanwhile Scripture lists the kinds of sins that will keep us from heaven, and tells us we must be holy, must put to death the deeds of the flesh, must do good, obey the commandments, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc in order to gain eternal life. IMO we'd have to pretty much consciously decide to overlook such exhortations in order to believe otherwise. Faith has a purpose, not to relieve us from the obligation to be righteous, but rather to be the vehicle to finally fulfilling that obligation, the right way, with grace, with God, IOW.

 

[Buzzard3]

It’s also not the Father’s will for us to keep the commandments as a legalistic prescription for salvation

In Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6, Paul warns believers Paul warns believers that their sins can result in them not inheriting "the kingdom of heaven". So clearly, obeying God's commandments are necessary for salvation.

"There is sin which is deadly" (1John 5:16). Sin is disobeying God's commandments and some sins can result in eternal "death" - hell.

"Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14). "holiness" is keeping God's commandments, which is necessary if one wants to "see the Lord".

You obviously don’t get it and James teaches that works are the evidence of faith and not that we are saved by works as you teach.

"faith without works is dead" (James 2:26) ... "works" is keeping God's commandments, without which faith is rendered useless unto salvation.

In regards to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous.

What nonsense. In James 2:24, James uses the word "justified" in the same sentence to apply to both works and faith. So since "justified" means "accounted as righteous" with repect to faith, it means the same thing with respect to works.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

James 2:21-22 says Abraham was "justified by works" and "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by works".

In other words, faith and works cannot be separated; they are both integral to justification.

I did not miss it and I understand the difference between genuine believers and make believers. BTW please explain to me WHICH commandments that you believe are in view here and also what it means to KEEP them.
Are the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law in view here?

Christians are still under the moral laws of Moses - including the Ten Commandments - which are eternal and will never be abrogated.
Paul makes this clear in Gal 5:14 when he cites Leviticus 19:18 as "the whole law" for Christians. In Romans 13:8-10, Paul refers to Lev 19:19 and the Ten Commandments as the "fulfillment the law" for Christians.

In addition to Lev 19:18 and the Ten Commandments, the NT mentions many sins that can be read as, in effect, :"Thou shalt not ...:" commandments. For example:

"They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless" (Romans 1:29-31).

"Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like" (Gal 5:19-21).

"Do not be deceived; neither the immoral,
nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 6:9-10).

Does “keep” mean flawlessly obey them? Have you flawlessly obeyed them 100% of the time?

God knows no one can keep his commandments flawlessly, but he tests our faith and our love for him by our willingness to obey him. We strive - albeit imperfectly - to please him thru obedience (works).

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Or is there a way to know or at least have confidence that our faith is true faith rather than false faith? That we are real Christians rather than fake ones?

What does God say? Matthew 7:18 'A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.' A true Christian will pattern his life after Jesus. He has a renewed heart that desires to always please God. He has God first in his heart and mind, wants to do the will of God because he loves God. When he sins, he hates it so much he will eventually repent i.e. completely turn away from sin. Ask your self genuinely if you love God first. What does a person do when they love God, what did Jesus say? 'if you love me, you will do my commandments'. Do you do what Jesus commanded you to do? It's easy to follow Jesus when things go well, but a true Christian will stand a trial pf persecution, a false one will fall away. In Matthew 7, Jesus said everyone who hears his words and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

I know Christians who come to the Church, think they sing some songs, sit through the sermon, pray a bit and that's it. But God is not interested in that. God wants our constant love, everyday, that we put our mind and heart on Heavenly things and not Earthly ones. I recommend reading and studying the 7 Churches of revelation. Examine your self. Is Jesus first in your life? Do you love Him? Not just some empty words but put those words in your action. Or do you allow sin in your live, make compromises, your heart is cold and live the same sinful life than before? I know people who constantly allow sin in their life and do not repent, or if I talk about Jesus' return, they are like, 'but I still have things to do here on Earth' and they do not want Jesus to come yet.

God expects holiness and righteousness of His people, and even more than that, He wants our pure love for Him. If you are going to church for any other reason than to fellowship with God and to learn of His will in your life, then you must ask yourself this question: Is what I am doing pleasing to God or me?

The Bible refers to Church as the bride of Christ. What does a bride do when she gets engaged to her lover? A new bride is so in love with her husband that he is the central focus of her life. When she takes her wedding vows, she promises to forsake all others and give herself solely to him. She eagerly anticipates his desires and lovingly tries to meet all his needs. She spends every possible moment with him. In this “bridal love” relationship, there is a special intimacy that develops between the bride and her bridegroom. She longs to know everything possible about him. She opens her heart to him, revealing her innermost secrets and desires. While they are apart from one another, she longs for him and eagerly anticipates when she will be with him once again. Because of her love, the bride puts her bridegroom first, before all else, including her own needs, desires, and ambitions. This kind of love can be only produced by the Holy Spirit, if you do not have this love in your life, you should ask yourself why.

Also read 1 Corinthians 12 on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit produce these gifts in you? There is a reason why the Lord always tells us to examine ourselves. A saved Christian loves God more than anything, desires to please Him, follows His commandments, waits for Him to come back every day and cannot think about anything else than being with Jesus and lives in repentance. He hates sin because God hates sin and models His life after Jesus. A false Christians puts Earthly things above God, because the love of God is not in Him and you will see this especially when things go bad.

 

[Danthemailman]

In Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6, Paul warns believers Paul warns believers that their sins can result in them not inheriting "the kingdom of heaven". So clearly, obeying God's commandments are necessary for salvation.

False and false. Galatians 5 says those who practice such things (vs. 21) sins listed in (vs. 19 and 20) will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is their lifestyle or bent of life. These are not genuine believers, but make believers/nominal Christians and it’s not hard to find them mixed in with genuine Christians.

In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin.. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

1 Corinthians 6 says the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. (vs. 9) In verse 11 we read such were (past tense) some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It’s the unrighteous who will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46) The unrighteous includes make believers who were “religious, but not right with God.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

"There is sin which is deadly" (1John 5:16). Sin is disobeying God's commandments and some sins can result in eternal "death" - hell.

Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly practice committing] sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Apart from the blood of Christ, all sin leads to spiritual death and ALL of us have broken God’s commandments. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)

"Strive ... for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14). "holiness" is keeping God's commandments, which is necessary if one wants to "see the Lord".

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. This is not about striving to obtain "enough" personal holiness (practically speaking) in order to merit salvation based on the merits of our performance as works-salvationists teach.

In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

"faith without works is dead" (James 2:26) ... "works" is keeping God's commandments, without which faith is rendered useless unto salvation.

Faith without works is dead does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes alive. That would be like saying that a fruit tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes alive. It takes a living faith to produce works just as it takes a living fruit tree to produce fruit.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

To “keep” (guard, observe, watch over) God’s commandments is works, yet we are not saved by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) and nobody except for Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed all of God’s commandments.

What nonsense. In James 2:24, James uses the word "justified" in the same sentence to apply to both works and faith. So since "justified" means "accounted as righteous" with repect to faith, it means the same thing with respect to works.

It’s not nonsense and your misinterpretation of James 2:24 is in contradiction with Romans 4:2-3. For if Abraham was justified by works (here Paul means accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

So once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

James 2:21-22 says Abraham was "justified by works" and "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by works".

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In other words, faith and works cannot be separated; they are both integral to justification.

False. You clearly teach salvation by works. Faith is the root of justification (Romans 5:1) and works are the fruit. No fruit ever produced at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Christians are still under the moral laws of Moses - including the Ten Commandments - which are eternal and will never be abrogated.

Is that what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9? Do you keep the sabbath day on Saturday with all it’s rules and regulations under the Mosaic law? The sabbath day was a shadow and Christ is the substance. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Paul makes this clear in Gal 5:14 when he cites Leviticus 19:18 as "the whole law" for Christians. In Romans 13:8-10, Paul refers to Lev 19:19 and the Ten Commandments as the "fulfillment the law" for Christians.

Since the old covenant of law has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to legally put into place the new covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13) The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10) and out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

God knows no one can keep his commandments flawlessly, but he tests our faith and our love for him by our willingness to obey him. We strive - albeit imperfectly - to please him thru obedience (works).

I’m glad to hear you admit that God knows that no one can keep His commandments “flawlessly” and the word “keep” does not mean obey flawlessly. Believers strive to obey God, yet we are not saved through imperfect obedience/works, but through faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[Buzzard3]

False and false. Galatians 5 says those who practice such things (vs. 21) sins listed in (vs. 19 and 20) will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is their lifestyle or bent of life.

I don't know what you're talking about, but Paul is talking about their sins, and how they put their salvation at risk.

These are not genuine believers, but make believers/nominal Christians and it’s not hard to find them mixed in with genuine Christians.

It's sad when Christians resort to inventing idiotic nonsense to defend a false doctrine.
There is not the slighest hint in Gal 5 that Paul is talking to "not genuine believers". On the contrary, Paul repeatedly refers to them as "brethren" (eg, 5:13, 6:1).

Faith without works is dead does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes alive.

Whatever. All you have to know is, "faith without works is dead" - ie, faith alone doesn't save; faith along with obedience (works) are essential for salvation.

your misinterpretation of James 2:24 is in contradiction with Romans 4:2-3. For if Abraham was justified by works (here Paul means accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God.

You've misread Romans 4:2 - it's referring to works done WITHOUT FAITH, not works done WITH FAITH.

So once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

More idiotic nonsense. You've got one meaning for "justified" in James 2:24 and a different meaning for "justified" in Romans - TWO different meanings for the SAME WORD. What a joke.

Is that what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9? Do you keep the sabbath day on Saturday with all it’s rules and regulations under the Mosaic law? The sabbath day was a shadow and Christ is the substance. (Colossians 2:16-17)

The Sabbath day was "blessed" and "sanctified" at the very beginning of creation (Genesis 2:3). The Saturday Jewish Sabbath became "the Lord's Day" on Sunday for Christians - it signifies the "new creation" ushered Is that what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9? Do you keep the sabbath day on Saturday with all it’s rules and regulations under the Mosaic law? The sabbath day was a shadow and Christ is the substance. (Colossians 2:16-17) in by Christ's Resurrection and serves as a public act of devotion to God. Heb 10:25 commands us "not to neglect to meet together".

 

[Danthemailman]

I don't know what you're talking about, but Paul is talking about their sins, and how they put their salvation at risk.

It's sad when Christians resort to inventing idiotic nonsense to defend a false doctrine.
There is not the slighest hint in Gal 5 that Paul is talking to "not genuine believers". On the contrary, Paul repeatedly refers to them as "brethren" (eg, 5:13, 6:1).

Whatever. All you have to know is, "faith without works is dead" - ie, faith alone doesn't save; faith along with obedience (works) are essential for salvation.

You've misread Romans 4:2 - it's referring to works done WITHOUT FAITH, not works done WITH FAITH.

More idiotic nonsense. You've got one meaning for "justified" in James 2:24 and a different meaning for "justified" in Romans - TWO different meanings for the SAME WORD. What a joke.

The Sabbath day was "blessed" and "sanctified" at the very beginning of creation (Genesis 2:3).

The Saturday Jewish Sabbath became "the Lord's Day" on Sunday for Christians - it signifies the "new creation" ushered Is that what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9? Do you keep the sabbath day on Saturday with all it’s rules and regulations under the Mosaic law? The sabbath day was a shadow and Christ is the substance. (Colossians 2:16-17) in by Christ's Resurrection and serves as a public act of devotion to God. Heb 10:25 commands us "not to neglect to meet together".

Once again, in Galatians 5, Paul was talking about those who practice such sins listed in verses 19-21 and in 1 Corinthians 6, Paul was talking about the unrighteous (not the righteous) who will not inherit the kingdom of God, as I already thoroughly explained to you.

Although these letters in the New Testament are addressed to “brethren” this does not mean that everyone in these large groups of “professing” believers truly are genuine believers. Hence the warning!

In regards to James 2:24, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple! Too simple!

Sunday, the Lord’s Day is not the new Jewish Sabbath. It’s amazing me how many people remain confused over the Sabbath day, which Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel l. (Exodus 31:16-17; Deuteronomy 5:15)

Although God's rest on the seventh day did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

The word "sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Once again, in Galatians 5, Paul was talking about those who practice such sins listed in verses 19-21 and in 1 Corinthians 6, Paul was talking about the unrighteous (not the righteous) who will not inherit the kingdom of God, as I already thoroughly explained to you.

Although these letters in the New Testament are addressed to “brethren” this does not mean that everyone in these large groups of “professing” believers truly are genuine believers. Hence the warning!

In regards to James 2:24, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple! Too simple!

Sunday, the Lord’s Day is not the new Jewish Sabbath. It’s amazing me how many people remain confused over the Sabbath day, which Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel l. (Exodus 31:16-17; Deuteronomy 5:15)

Although God's rest on the seventh day did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

The word "sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.

Some people on here do not understand the power of the cross and the work Jesus done on it. It is not enough for some and have to keep adding to it, which is a clear tactic of satan. We can only pray God in His mercy touches their heart so they can also see what Jesus done.