How are we to explain these "miracles?"

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Loudmouth

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People will always try to explain miracles away. Such as those that see heaven or hell when they die (and then come back to life).

If someone had a vision of a god that you did not believe in, would you begin to believe in that god? If someone had a near death experience that was consistent with a Hindu god, would you convert to Hinduism?

Every religion has similar claims of the miraculous.

Just like science tries to disprove anything in the bible and even God.

There is nothing to disprove. Until theists can present evidence for the existence of their deities, there is simply nothing to consider.

Despite lots of evidence supporting things they don't truly care about that. And of course as I say this it leads to "Give me some evidence!", just so they can shoot it down anyways with "ideas" on why its wrong. Hence why I stopped providing evidence.

I see this excuse all of the time. People claim to have evidence, but they have deemed that we are all too mean, therefore they just can't provide the evidence. After a while, you realize that they didn't have the evidence to begin with.

That aside. There was a man with end stage cancer (don't remember what kind it was) locally. His doctor told him he had weeks to live after the treatments weren't doing anything. One night his church came in and prayed over him. Asking for a miracle. The next morning he said he felt great. The doctors gave him some tests just to show him nothing had changed. But to their surprise his cancer was totally gone. 100%. The doctors who don't believe in God say it was a miracle.

EXplain that?

The same way you explain people die from cancer even though people prayed for them, and why people with no religious beliefs go into remission. You can also explain the same way that you explain how Mikey from the Life cereal commercials could explode after eating Pop Rocks and drinking Pepsi. There are a lot of urban myths surrounding these supposed miracles as well.
 
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stevevw

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That reminds me of a women here in Australia who was completely cured from stage 4 lung cancer. She was a catholic but drifted away from the church. She lived in a small country town and was just an average person. She was down to earth and had no radical beliefs and came across as a nice ordinary lady who was married. But in her later years she developed incurable lung cancer that was diagnosed and she was given only a short time to live. She had gone back to the church and her congregation in the small town all prayed for a miracle. I think someone had what they call a relic from a religious person who was well known for their good deeds a Mary Mackillop in the area. They religious person was seen as a saint though she wasn't officially classed as one by the Vatican. Anyway they prayed for her that a miracle could happen. Over the next few weeks the women was preparing to die and had all her friend come over to spend time with her and she was making all the arrangement's. But then she said she started to feel better but thought nothing of it. Then she was getting up and doing things and nobody could work out why. Her husband was saying wasn't she supposed to be sick and incapacitated but she was laughing and being normal. So they decided to go back to the doctors to get a check up. When they took the x rays the doctor called another doctor into the lab and they were scratching their heads. They did some more tests and couldn't believe that the cancer had completely disappeared. Thats stage 4 incurable cancer that had spread throughout her body all gone.
The end result was her miracle turned Mary mackillop into a saint and she was officially recognized by the pope and the Vatican. The doctors to this day have no explanation as to how this happened.
I am Mary MacKillop's miracle | Australian Women's Weekly
mary makillop cures women of cancer - Bing Videos
 
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mzungu

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That reminds me of a women here in Australia who was completely cured from stage 4 lung cancer. She was a catholic but drifted away from the church. She lived in a small country town and was just an average person. She was down to earth and had no radical beliefs and came across as a nice ordinary lady who was married. But in her later years she developed incurable lung cancer that was diagnosed and she was given only a short time to live. She had gone back to the church and her congregation in the small town all prayed for a miracle. I think someone had what they call a relic from a religious person who was well known for their good deeds a Mary Mackillop in the area. They religious person was seen as a saint though she wasn't officially classed as one by the Vatican. Anyway they prayed for her that a miracle could happen. Over the next few weeks the women was preparing to die and had all her friend come over to spend time with her and she was making all the arrangement's. But then she said she started to feel better but thought nothing of it. Then she was getting up and doing things and nobody could work out why. Her husband was saying wasn't she supposed to be sick and incapacitated but she was laughing and being normal. So they decided to go back to the doctors to get a check up. When they took the x rays the doctor called another doctor into the lab and they were scratching their heads. They did some more tests and couldn't believe that the cancer had completely disappeared. Thats stage 4 incurable cancer that had spread throughout her body all gone.
The end result was her miracle turned Mary mackillop into a saint and she was officially recognized by the pope and the Vatican. The doctors to this day have no explanation as to how this happened.
I am Mary MacKillop's miracle | Australian Women's Weekly
mary makillop cures women of cancer - Bing Videos
Sharks cannot get cancer; does that give them some special grace with God? You do know that many atheists go into remission even though no one prayed for them and they certainly did not pray themselves. Cancer remission without the aid of treatment is known to the medical field and just like the sharks inability to get afflicted with cancer; on both the reasons are not clear. We will eventually acquire the knowledge.

It is in the genes! That much we know.
 
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Heissonear

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If someone had a vision of a god that you did not believe in, would you begin to believe in that god? If someone had a near death experience that was consistent with a Hindu god, would you convert to Hinduism?

Every religion has similar claims of the miraculous.

There is nothing to disprove. Until theists can present evidence for the existence of their deities, there is simply nothing to consider.

I see this excuse all of the time. People claim to have evidence, but they have deemed that we are all too mean, therefore they just can't provide the evidence. After a while, you realize that they didn't have the evidence to begin with.

The same way you explain people die from cancer even though people prayed for them, and why people with no religious beliefs go into remission. You can also explain the same way that you explain how Mikey from the Life cereal commercials could explode after eating Pop Rocks and drinking Pepsi. There are a lot of urban myths surrounding these supposed miracles as well.
.

When pushed in the corner by "evidence" you don't like you push it to the side. Right, it is not evidence YOU have seen; nor evidence YOU understand. Then you act like it is associated to EXTREME experiences - however, you are reluctant to admit it "could" be from Spiritual Dynamics, which you have testified you have zero awareness of, zero expertise in, zero maturity in.

A chap who wants to keep the blinders on because of unbelief from failing to find Him experiences in your past.

A conflict of experiences exists between us. We see Power from on High, and you see and promote unbelief - about Leprechauns imaginary world and powers. A conflict in experiences between us that has something to tell: "who turned to who", and "what did they find"?

You are in a dilemma. However, He hears you every moment, even when you wisper. It is unavoidable; it's happening. He knows you inside out every moment. You don't have to go far to talk to Him. As far as the vail, He can take care of that, and does for those who seek to find Him.

By the way, what else in this world would you rather find from this point on? Think. Even if you gain wealth, how durable is it., and how long will it last? Is there anything that compares to meeting Him who is on High?

Mate, you need to reprioritize, and ditch the so called knowledge that is "against" Him.

.
 
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Heissonear

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Sharks cannot get cancer; does that give them some special grace with God? You do know that many atheists go into remission even though no one prayed for them and they certainly did not pray themselves. Cancer remission without the aid of treatment is known to the medical field and just like the sharks inability to get afflicted with cancer; on both the reasons are not clear. We will eventually acquire the knowledge.

It is in the genes! That much we know.

.

Throw cold water on what you don't know. Continue to have faith in only natural processes and materials. Keep your eyes closed the the Spiritual Dynamics in our midst.

Continue to be a Blind leader. Show the world your Spiritual Poverty.

Be proud of it, and its worth compared what the people who received miracles gained. Show your perverse value system and worldliness.

.
 
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DogmaHunter

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By the way, what else in this world would you rather find from this point on?

This sentence gives away your irrational approach to the topic.

It exposes emotional reasoning.

Mate, you need to reprioritize, and ditch the so called knowledge that is "against" Him.

And in this sentence, you quite literally advice people to do what you actually blame them of doing in the beginning of your post:

When pushed in the corner by "evidence" you don't like you push it to the side

What possible good could come from "ditching knowledge" just so you can believe a certain thing because you want to believe it?

It's senseless.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Throw cold water on what you don't know. Continue to have faith in only natural processes and materials.

That's not what most of us do. Most of use just go where the evidence leads. It just happens to lead to natural processes and materials.

Keep your eyes closed the the Spiritual Dynamics in our midst.

You can try to demonstrate the existence of "spiritual dynamics" with verifiable evidence. I'm all ears.


Show your perverse value system and worldliness.

.

Perverse?
Please stop with the arrogant, condescending and insulting one-liners. It makes you look like a bigot.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Throw cold water on what you don't know. Continue to have faith in only natural processes and materials. Keep your eyes closed the the Spiritual Dynamics in our midst.

Continue to be a Blind leader. Show the world your Spiritual Poverty.

Be proud of it, and its worth compared what the people who received miracles gained. Show your perverse value system and worldliness.

.

Calling us perverse is one of the reasons why many atheists have a rough time attempting to seek faith. If you make faith be associated with hostility, why would we want to place ourselves in religious environments?
 
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Loudmouth

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Right, it is not evidence YOU have seen; nor evidence YOU understand.

There is no such thing as personal facts. What you are describing is not objective evidence. They are subjective experiences.

Then you act like it is associated to EXTREME experiences - however, you are reluctant to admit it "could" be from Spiritual Dynamics, which you have testified you have zero awareness of, zero expertise in, zero maturity in.

You have shown that you have zero evidence that they are part of any spiritual realm.

I also notice that you didn't answer the questions from my post.

If someone had a vision of a Hindu god, would you convert to Hinduism?
 
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stevevw

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Sharks cannot get cancer; does that give them some special grace with God? You do know that many atheists go into remission even though no one prayed for them and they certainly did not pray themselves. Cancer remission without the aid of treatment is known to the medical field and just like the sharks inability to get afflicted with cancer; on both the reasons are not clear. We will eventually acquire the knowledge.

It is in the genes! That much we know.

I dont know why sharks dont get cancer. Maybe their immune systems are different. The stats for someone being totally cured from terminal cancer is not common. Its about 1 in a 100,000 and most of the ones Ive read prayer was involved. So what if some dont believe that its a miracle. If it works it works and doesn't matter. Don't knock something that has some beneficial effects just because Gods involved. If the person believes God is going to cure them and he does thats great. Science always wants to put an explanation on it but sometimes there just isn't one no matter how they want to rationalize it. Thats the beauty that it can only work through faith and that persons total belief that God will do something miraculous.

You also have to remember that another person had a miracle happen to give Mary mackillop a saint. They have to have two miracles proven. So whatever was causing it it was working for two people to have miracles and be cured. So something was going on. I think the chances of two people being cured by prayer and from the one saint is pretty rare. There are miracles that happen all over the world. Even people being cured from addiction or a life of crime. They are changed into new people when they receive Christ into their life. No rehab, no doctors , no medical aids like methadone. Just straight out changed into new people from inside out. But there have bee other miraculous occurrences of the blind seen and people being healed of all sorts of problems. This especially happens with new converts in places that have never heard the gospel. They have done tests and found that in some congregations peoples hearing and sight was improved and healed from before and after. There are dead holy people that have never decayed and they have not been embalmed or touched. This is called Incorruptibility. Yeah there will be the hoaxes and the scam artists but overall there is something going on that is beyond explanation.

It has even been proved that just having a religious faith makes people healthier and happier. So it doesn't matter what you or others believe it just works for what ever reason. Why even knock it if it works then it works.
Top 10 Astonishing Miracles - Listverse

A number of these global reports, however, exceed even our best current expectations for what "faith" can produce. In September 2010, Southern Medical Journal published an article showing that some people in Mozambique, tested before and after prayer, experienced significant recovery of hearing or eyesight. The Medical Bureau at Lourdes has long examined evidence for extraordinary recoveries.
Craig S. Keener: Are Miracles Real?


bernprof.jpg


Incorruptibility where a saints body does not decay. They have not been embalmed or doctored up.
St Bernadette as she appears today – 129 years after her death.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/incorruptible1.htm
 
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Heissonear

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There is no such thing as personal facts. What you are describing is not objective evidence. They are subjective experiences.

You have shown that you have zero evidence that they are part of any spiritual realm.

I also notice that you didn't answer the questions from my post.

If someone had a vision of a Hindu god, would you convert to Hinduism?

By now it should be made clear that I do not follower others blindly. I put their words to the test.

In relation to Hinduism I was open to learn and think through for some time - until doing the same for Christianity brought God into my life in no small way, then and since.

To the Hindu person I would question him like many others with experiences they have had. I would be sensitive to him, and learn more from him.

What you are looking is from your head produced ideology that makes you "peg" situations, people, and matters. Hey, compared to God you and I are a couple of really really ignorant dudes. Why should we peg everything in only ideology just to win debates? What are you here for, mate, have you already arrived?

.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Incorruptibility doesn't just happen to saints, in fact, that is the reason why your source stated it is no longer something that qualifies one for consideration of sainthood. Plus, saints are, unfortunately, more likely to be dug up, so for all we know this actually isn't all that uncommon or special. I mean, how often is it that people look at a body after it is buried, especially in modern times, to check?
 
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HitchSlap

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Hey, compared to God you and I are a couple of really really ignorant dudes. Why should we peg everything in only ideology just to win debates? What are you here for, mate, have you already arrived?

.

Hey, we really have no idea how intelligent your god (if it exists) really is, as the only thing we have are copies of what men wrote down that they claim god said.

See the difference?
 
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keith99

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People will always try to explain miracles away. Such as those that see heaven or hell when they die (and then come back to life). Just like science tries to disprove anything in the bible and even God. Despite lots of evidence supporting things they don't truly care about that. And of course as I say this it leads to "Give me some evidence!", just so they can shoot it down anyways with "ideas" on why its wrong. Hence why I stopped providing evidence.

That aside. There was a man with end stage cancer (don't remember what kind it was) locally. His doctor told him he had weeks to live after the treatments weren't doing anything. One night his church came in and prayed over him. Asking for a miracle. The next morning he said he felt great. The doctors gave him some tests just to show him nothing had changed. But to their surprise his cancer was totally gone. 100%. The doctors who don't believe in God say it was a miracle.

EXplain that?

A local man, with no name, no hospital given, no way to check.

So basically all we have is your word.

And I'm betting you were told this by someone else.

Sorry that is not evidence.
 
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CounselorForChrist

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God exists and will apparently heal people (but not amputees, He hates those guys), but only after enough people pray for the patient, but not with any consistency, so that statistically there is no difference in recovery between those who are prayed for and those who are not. This has the effect that His miracles remain hidden and incapable of convincing skeptics like me, which results in me getting condemned to eternal torture in Hell. Which you know.. is kind of a <censored> move. If You're going to perform miracles, at least make them statistically significant!
Gods not a genie. Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes no. Sometimes wait. If he healed every person then there wouldn't be a need for faith since it would be obvious to non-believers that he is real.

A local man, with no name, no hospital given, no way to check.

So basically all we have is your word.

And I'm betting you were told this by someone else.

Sorry that is not evidence.
Thats the fun part. I use to give the info, people would look it up and make excuses anyways as to why it happened. So now I don't bother posting the info. Since atheists are so smart they should know how to use google. And yes I knew the person, it wasn't a second hand story.
 
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Heissonear

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Hey, we really have no idea how intelligent your god (if it exists) really is, as the only thing we have are copies of what men wrote down that they claim god said.

See the difference?
.
Your promote unbelief, a world void of God, but you have no evidence to do so.

All you can present is derived from the physical realm, because you have zero evidence for or against the Spiritual Realm. So you promote Naturalism.

In this OP and content of Power from on High you have not and you cannot prove others have not experienced miracles, or dispute factually against those who have come to know God through the Baptism of the Spirit, as proclaimed in the Bible and multitudes of people on earth. Your position "againts" the Spiritual Realm and its Dynamics is based on zero evidence.

.
 
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Heissonear

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There is no such thing as personal facts. What you are describing is not objective evidence. They are subjective experiences.

You have shown that you have zero evidence that they are part of any spiritual realm.

.

You show ignorance in how God works in people. He reveals Himself through His Spirit. It is most often within them, such as the Baptism of the Spirit. Your Spiritual Poverty is the problem.

.
 
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