How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Loudmouth]

Evil exists in the world.
Evil men reject God and separate themselves from Him. Evil people do evil things. God WILL intervene in time, casting the evil people into Hell. Until then He offers salvation for those who will accept it.[/COLOR]

People get blown up in a church? God just didn't feel like helping people that day.

People get saved from being blown up in a church? God loves his children and protects them.

Reminds me of the game, "Heads I win, tails you lose."

 

[[serious]]

So, why would God want to blow up the building? Seems like a simpler way to go about it would be to just miraculously shut off the gas.

 

[[serious]]

And I guess God doesn't like mississippi church goers as much:
At least 35 injured after floor collapses at Mississippi church | Fox News

 

[Sofaman]

Evil exists in the world.
Evil men reject God and separate themselves from Him. Evil people do evil things. God WILL intervene in time, casting the evil people into Hell. Until then He offers salvation for those who will accept it.[/COLOR]

Your post reminded me of this:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~ Steven Weinberg

 

[Heissonear]

People get blown up in a church? God just didn't feel like helping people that day.

People get saved from being blown up in a church? God loves his children and protects them.

Reminds me of the game, "Heads I win, tails you lose."

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Interesting. You have no apprehension of God, no walk of learning from Him through the Revelations He gives to teach and instruct us through His Holy Spirit - yet you proclaim you are an expert in matters about the Spiritual Realm and its Spiritual Dynamics, and you tell us God makes no sence. Did I ask for your feeble lack of maturity help? You do not know Him and have not passed even the starting line. But you want us to hear your confusion and lack of Spiritual Understanding.

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[Heissonear]

Your post reminded me of this:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~ Steven Weinberg

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Well, not quite, Sofaman. It look like you misunderstand. Spiritual maturity and growth is "if God permits" and not through leaning on ones own understanding to comprehend the Spiritual World and Truth. Have you heard He is Holy? Have you heard who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? Of course some uninformed make the gate wide, in ignorance.

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[Heissonear]

So, why would God want to blow up the building? Seems like a simpler way to go about it would be to just miraculously shut off the gas.

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Lol. Are you trying to comprehend what you cannot mortally understand, best you try? Go for it, and display your ignorance.

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[[serious]]

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Lol. Are you trying to comprehend what you cannot mortally understand, best you try? Go for it, and display your ignorance.

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So anything good that happens is evidence of a benevolent god, anything bad that happens is a mystery?

I've got a coin that only lands on heads, though sometimes how it lands is a mystery...

 

[Sofaman]

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Well, not quite, Sofaman. It look like you misunderstand. Spiritual maturity and growth is "if God permits" and not through leaning on ones own understanding to comprehend the Spiritual World and Truth. Have you heard He is Holy? Have you heard who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? Of course some uninformed make the gate wide, in ignorance.

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I.. er.... erm

 

[selfinflikted]

I´m wondering why god - instead of taking care that every single member was delayed for some reason - didn´t simply take care that the heating worked correctly (and/or the pastor handled it correctly). That way he would also have saved the church, btw.
Plus: all of 15 people delayed for 5 minutes? The chance for that is not so very low.

[/color]

Yes, excellent point.

God not only works in mysterious ways, but also convoluted, and illogical ways as well, I suppose.

 

[Mystman]

It depends on the meeting. Monday morning sales meetings are notorious for tardiness. Without knowing the exact frequency each and every person was late plotting the precise probability is unknowable, but given even if the figures are off by 20% it's still a high number. There was no indication in the story that any of the people involved were prone to tardiness.

Herbert Kipf, lathe operator, would have been ahead of time but had put off an important letter. "I can't think why," he said. He lingered over it and was late.

It was a cold evening. Stenographer Joyce Black, feeling "just plain lazy," stayed in her warm house until the last possible moment. She was almost ready to leave when it happened.

Because his wife was away, Machinist Harvey Ahl was taking care of his two boys. He was going to take them to practice with him but somehow he got wound up talking. When he looked at his watch, he saw he was already late.

Marilyn Paul, the pianist, had planned to arrive half an hour early. However she fell asleep after dinner, and when her mother awakened her at 7:15 she had time only to tidy up and start out.

Mrs. F.E. Paul, choir director and mother of the pianist, was late simply because her daughter was. She had tried unsuccessfully to awaken the girl earlier.

High school girls Lucille Jones and Dorothy Wood are neighbors and customarily go to practice together. Lucille was listening to a 7-to-7:30 radio program and broke her habit of promptness because she wanted to hear the end. Dorothy waited for her.

7 out of 15 had reasons that sound like they aren't the most punctual people in the world. Sure, afterwards they may claim that they are "normally" on time in order to make a better story, but I'm not buying it. If at least 7 out of 15 are regularly late, it's reasonable to assume that most of the others also treat the schedule with some flexibility: what's the point of being there on time if practice always starts late?

So we have a choir that is supposed to start at 7:20. The time is already a give-away: why 7:20 and not 7:00 or 7:30? Because they really want to start at 7:30, and by scheduling the official starting time at 7:20 all the people who are naturally tardy still manage to be there "on time". It's a very common trick. I mean:

"Marilyn Paul, the pianist, had planned to arrive half an hour early. However she fell asleep after dinner, and when her mother awakened her at 7:15 she had time only to tidy up and start out. "

Does that sound like someone who is worried that she will miss the start of practice, and keep the others waiting? No, that sounds like someone who knows that practice will always start late, so she can still do some housekeeping.

So this time no one was there at 7:25, and that had apparently never happened before. Maybe there normally were 1-10 people at that time. So they got lucky, maybe it was just a once in a million chance. But once in a million chances happen every single day.

edit: wait missed one:
"Ladona Vandergrift, a high school sophomore, was having trouble with a geometry problem. She knew practice began promptly and always came early. But she stayed to finish the problem.

yeah. "always came early". someone who comes late in order to finish a geometry problem. sure.

so that's 8 out of 15. a further 2 came late because their car didn't work in cold weather, and 3 came late because a dress was soiled (big deal?) and a new one needed ironing (needed?). This last group included the reverend. If even the reverend finds the 7:20 start time less important than his daughter's dress, that tells us something about the punctuality of this choir.

 

[Loudmouth]

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Interesting. You have no apprehension of God, no walk of learning from Him through the Revelations He gives to teach and instruct us through His Holy Spirit - yet you proclaim you are an expert in matters about the Spiritual Realm and its Spiritual Dynamics, and you tell us God makes no sence. Did I ask for your feeble lack of maturity help? You do not know Him and have not passed even the starting line. But you want us to hear your confusion and lack of Spiritual Understanding.

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How can I have apprehension of a being that no one can show to exist?

Why don't you demonstrate that God exists before accusing others of not being able to apprehend God.

 

[Loudmouth]

So anything good that happens is evidence of a benevolent god, anything bad that happens is a mystery?

I've got a coin that only lands on heads, though sometimes how it lands is a mystery...

A coin that only lands on heads, except when it doesn't want to. Either way, the coin is supernatural and always lands on the side it wants to because it has a plan that is somehow indistinguishable from pure probability.

 

[HitchSlap]

No, it's called a miracle when God intervenes and overrides the laws of probability and natural law. The sheer unlikliness of the event indicates divine intervention, but no, such an event is not precluded by natural law the way turning water into win is.

So every time an unlikely event occurs and your personal threshold for credulity is reached, you consider it to be miraculous?

 

[Heissonear]

How can I have apprehension of a being that no one can show to exist?

Why don't you demonstrate that God exists before accusing others of not being able to apprehend God.

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It is simple, mate.

Its existence has already been demonstrated to me, even to an educated Naturalists.

The demonstration of its existence is now your problem. As I once had this problem it was resolved. And not through men nor mere physical events. Now it's your problem.

The distinction between the Spiritual and physical is pronounce. As a Naturalists I had come to learn many basics, like about different species of trees, grasses, types of minerals, rocks, soils, people, cultures, civilizations, and the like. I was continuing to learn of the natural world around me.

But the day dawned when the Spiritual Realm and its Dynamics was open unto me. What a shock for any Naturalist!

I do not need the demonstration any longer. Many people like you do, ones who think they are experts about the existence and reality of the Spiritual Realm. They do not know even the basics about the Spiritual activity in our midst, nor what the activity is about.

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[morningstar2651]

Evil exists in the world.
Evil men reject God and separate themselves from Him. Evil people do evil things. God WILL intervene in time, casting the evil people into Hell. Until then He offers salvation for those who will accept it.[/COLOR]

Were the people in that church too evil for God to save?

Why does God kill people that show up for church on time and spare the ones that are late?

Why does God blow up churches?

 

[Heissonear]

So every time an unlikely event occurs and your personal threshold for credulity is reached, you consider it to be miraculous?

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As a Naturalists you have your point of view. All things can be explained without the need of God. That is fundamental to Naturalism.

But in relation to the Spiritual Realm, and what activity it has in our midst, Naturalists have no apprehension of. To them the Spiritual World and its Dynamics do not exist. There is no Spiritual World.

So Naturalists say. It shows their intense ignorance about Eternal Beings and the Spiritual activity happening among people on earth. As it turns out, Naturalists speak about things authoritatively that they have no knowledge of. They propose to be experts, but have not even the most fundamental basics understood.

How can you say miricles or other events from the Spiritual Realm do not occur? How do you know they "are not Spiritual"?

Why do you state that somehow they "must be physical"?

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[Heissonear]

Were the people in that church too evil for God to save?

Why does God kill people that show up for church on time and spare the ones that are late?

Why does God blow up churches?

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You are confused, just a bit. How things happen, why they happen, and when they happen are beyond you.

When you try to reason how God could be involved you show confusion. No apprehension of how He allows things, particularly about "blow up churches". It's like you leverage these types of events to demonstrate He is not. How can He be.

A wild and crazy world. I've been there, and in due course had to profess such before Him. A period of time of my life before Him.

But if you really do not want to know why things happen then just keep on spreading confusion and wildness. It's your situation in this present life.

As far as Grace and Power from on High you know not of nor experience it's work in your life, even before others.

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[morningstar2651]

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You are confused, just a bit. How things happen, why they happen, and when they happen are beyond you.

When you try to reason how God could be involved you show confusion. No apprehension of how He allows things, particularly about "blow up churches". It's like you leverage these types of events to demonstrate He is not. How can He be.

A wild and crazy world. I've been there, and in due course had to profess such before Him. A period of time of my life before Him.

But if you really do not want to know why things happen then just keep on spreading confusion and wildness. It's your situation in this present life.

As far as Grace and Power from on High you know not of nor experience it's work in your life, even before others.

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I don't understand your post. Please use less sentence fragments and more complete ideas.

 

[Paulos23]

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It is simple, mate.

Its existence has already been demonstrated to me, even to an educated Naturalists.

Then you should be able to demonstrate it to us.