How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[AV1611VET]

How is asking a question an accusation?

There you go again!

 

[Armoured]

There you go again!

Yep, asking questions, understanding basic use of tense of verbs, it's terrible! Enough to make your koalas teleport.

 

[quatona]

How is asking a question an accusation?

It seems like simply calling your questions "challenges" will keep you on the safe side, in this respect.

 

[ob77]

I´m wondering why god - instead of taking care that every single member was delayed for some reason - didn´t simply take care that the heating worked correctly (and/or the pastor handled it correctly). That way he would also have saved the church, btw.
Plus: all of 15 people delayed for 5 minutes? The chance for that is not so very low.

[/COLOR]

To get it in the record. If something does not happen, no one pays attention.
If you did not get hit by a meteorite today, would you proclaim that you did not?

 

[AV1611VET]

Yep, asking questions, understanding basic use of tense of verbs, it's terrible!

Then Arab-phoning them into gerunds, it's typical!

 

[Heissonear]

Thanks for a straightforward answer that makes sense.

I have two additional questions.
The first one is not directed towards you: Do Heissonear, stevevw and KWCrazy (the most vocal proponents of "miracles" in this thread agree with you in this definitions?

The second one is directed specifically towards you:
Is "Embedded Age" a "law of nature" or rather a violation thereof?

.
I'm not sure how you read AV's description but it reads spot on to me.

.

 

[[serious]]

Yes, that's another false accusation; based on you Arab-phoning the verb in my explanation to a gerund in your false rendering of what I said.

Well you did say that clam would have flown during the flood.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7817639-19/#post65472920

Um ... do you think clams just sat there while the earth was literally being flushed out with water?

"Sink to the bottom"? are you kidding me?

If anything, they flew through the air at one point.

 

[[serious]]

Good questions!

Desipte the fact that a prayer vigil was being held for Peter, who was being held by four quaternions of soldiers, note this doosey of an initial reaction by some:

Acts 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
Acts 12:13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
Acts 12:14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
Acts 12:15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
Acts 12:16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished.

That doesn't answer the question. Let's say someone claims to have performed a miracle. How do we tell real miracles apart from trickery or natural occurrence?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well you did say that clam would have flown during the flood.

Kinda left this out, didn't you?

Genesis 7:11a In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up,

I'll tell you what:

Go stand atop Old Faithful for awhile and see what happens.

 

[stevevw]

I don't think miracles should be the first attempt at an explanation. People with cancer sometimes get better with treatment, that's why we treat them. Even when we do nothings, sometimes they get better. Having a dream about getting better before getting better isn't really impressive to me. I don't find it strange at all that people pray for someone with cancer, that people with cancer would have dreams about getting better, or that people with cancer go into remission. The only thing that doesn't seem common to me is that people would go to a "miracle service" but that wouldn't make the rest less expected. Cancer sometimes goes into remission. Again, not surprising. We would need some sort of statistical analysis of "miracle services" improving outcomes.

Same thing, sometimes cancer goes into remission.

This is where it gets harder to prove. Well at least for a skeptic. You could come up with some sort of explanation every time to place some doubt that it wasn't a miracle. But to me even 10 cases of people saying they had prayed just before something miraculous happened is cause for thought. So I guess it can come down to your level of faith. Part of a person giving and receiving a miracle is faith isn't it. If we go in with this skeptical belief about God all the time then its not going to happen or we will not see God at work in all cases even if some are true.

I havnt checked out how many cases for this without any prayer. That would probably put it in more contrast. But then when it happens on several occasions closely after someone is purposely praying for a miracle it makes you wonder if there is something to it. Even if it was a case of the power of positive thinking. I am thinking in some of these cases it seems more than a remission in the sense that things slowly turned around for the better. Especially the cases where the bone was replaced by new bone in such a short time as well as stopping the cancer.

The people involved believe it to be a miracle and even the doctors involved are astonished. They say they have no explanation. So its not as though they are thinking oh well that just happens and its no big deal. They are amazed themselves and they are the Doctors who use the medicines in the conventional ways. I would have thought that someone who believes in an all powerful God would give some thought to there being some supernatural things happening with God. You seem to be as skeptical of God as a non believer.

At the end of the day it will come down to the faith of the individual. If some believe then thats up to them. If it makes their lives richer well all well and good. If they are fooled then they will trip up or be living a deluded life and thats their loss. In some cases the miracle has caused some to completely change their lives and go on to help others. So apart from satisfying some desire for some to show that nothing happens without a reason to maybe prove there is no supernatural God I cant see what the fuss is. To me its all pretty good and positive stuff. I can think of a lot of other things that are negative and need to be challenged besides something that is actually saving and changing people lives.

 

[[serious]]

Kinda left this out, didn't you?

I quoted the entire post leaving nothing out. Check the link.

 

[[serious]]

This is where it gets harder to prove. Well at least for a skeptic. You could come up with some sort of explanation every time to place some doubt that it wasn't a miracle. But to me even 10 cases of people saying they had prayed just before something miraculous happened is cause for thought. So I guess it can come down to your level of faith. Part of a person giving and receiving a miracle is faith isn't it. If we go in with this skeptical belief about God all the time then its not going to happen or we will not see God at work in all cases even if some are true.

I havnt checked out how many cases for this without any prayer. That would probably put it in more contrast. But then when it happens on several occasions closely after someone is purposely praying for a miracle it makes you wonder if there is something to it. Even if it was a case of the power of positive thinking. I am thinking in some of these cases it seems more than a remission in the sense that things slowly turned around for the better. Especially the cases where the bone was replaced by new bone in such a short time as well as stopping the cancer.

The people involved believe it to be a miracle and even the doctors involved are astonished. They say they have no explanation. So its not as though they are thinking oh well that just happens and its no big deal. They are amazed themselves and they are the Doctors who use the medicines in the conventional ways. I would have thought that someone who believes in an all powerful God would give some thought to there being some supernatural things happening with God. You seem to be as skeptical of God as a non believer.

At the end of the day it will come down to the faith of the individual. If some believe then thats up to them. If it makes their lives richer well all well and good. If they are fooled then they will trip up or be living a deluded life and thats their loss. In some cases the miracle has caused some to completely change their lives and go on to help others. So apart from satisfying some desire for some to show that nothing happens without a reason to maybe prove there is no supernatural God I cant see what the fuss is. To me its all pretty good and positive stuff. I can think of a lot of other things that are negative and need to be challenged besides something that is actually saving and changing people lives.

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.”

I don't expect to see lots of miracles.

 

[AV1611VET]

I quoted the entire post leaving nothing out. Check the link.

Sorta left this out too, didn't you?

How many different examples do you want me to use?

Put a golf ball on the end of a garden hose, aim the garden hose upward and turn the water on and see where the golf ball goes.

This isn't rocket science ... just ballistics.

 

[Armoured]

It seems like simply calling your questions "challenges" will keep you on the safe side, in this respect.

Indeed. And here was I thinking the TOS explicitly condemn "calling out".

 

[[serious]]

Sorta left this out too, didn't you?

Also wasn't in the quoted post. I can't very well leave out what isn't there. Seriously, check the link. I quoted your whole post. The whole thing. All of it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Also wasn't in the quoted post. I can't very well leave out what isn't there. Seriously, check the link. I quoted your whole post. The whole thing. All of it.

Did you notice the second quote is a reply to one of your posts?

Here it is:

If it happened after the flood, how does it help your flying clam theory?

Regardless of location, you can't launch a clam to the top of Everest, Ararat, or whatever mountain you are going to change it to next.

EDIT: Actually, let's just focus on how it helps your flying clam theory at all. The time it happened is irrelevant.

How many different examples do you want me to use?

Put a golf ball on the end of a garden hose, aim the garden hose upward and turn the water on and see where the golf ball goes.

This isn't rocket science ... just ballistics.

 

[stevevw]

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.”

I don't expect to see lots of miracles.

Yes I agree with that. If people would need lots of miracles to prove to them that God is real then what is faith. But I believe there will come a time when things will be more supernatural. There will be great signs and wonders so that people can clearly know that there is a God and there is Satan.

Technology is moving fast and almost creating the illusion that things can be miraculous and magic. We are moving towards a time when we will almost think that anything is possible with man and that is when God will reveal himself so that everyone will know that God alone is mighty and all powerful.

 

[Neogaia777]

Here one tale of my book of stories of how I came to faith (began believing)...

One night, I was deeply troubled with many issues, I was trying to get to sleep, but I felt like I was wrestling with many things, I was tossing and turning, well some time passed, and my upstairs bedroom door was open, well, it closed, and I didn't think anything about that at first, because my roommate stays up late and sleeps downstairs, and sometimes when I have my upstairs door open, when he opens up the bottom downstairs front door (to go outside to smoke a cigarette usually) the change in pressure makes my upstairs door shut (get back to that in a minute)...

So my door shut and a few minutes later something very odd happened, I was laying on my side facing the wall, holding, almost clinching my covers that I had rolled up into a ball, anyways I felt someone sit, (and I felt the depression in my bed), next to my back, and I felt the most gentle brushing of my head and hair, and I kinda jumped a little bit at first, but feeling the very, very gentle touch right after I jumped a little bit, immediately began to sooth me, and gradually as it kept doing this (and I could still feel the impression of someone sitting on my bed next to my back with me) anyways as it kept doing this I began to feel the greatest comfort and ease that in about ten minutes (I'm guessing because I don't exactly know) but it's like all that was troubling me left and I felt such great, great, comfort and ease that I very shortly there-afterwards fell asleep...

I remembered it when I woke up the next morning, and (this is the part I said I'd get back to) I remembered the presence of a person sitting on my bed and soothing me to sleep, but I then, also remembered the door... You see, every single time my roommate goes outside to smoke I always, and I mean always hear the downstairs door close, cause he always slams it shut, without thinking twice about my sleep, but, getting to the point, I don't remember hearing the downstairs door shut, and I don't even think my roommate went outside, so who closed the door and then sat next to me on my bed and comforted and soothed me to sleep that night?

Miracle? Yes?, No? Supernatural, I would say, and that's not my only story, I've got hundreds more like it, some even more spectacular than that one...

Just thought I'd share,

God Bless!

 

[quatona]

You're welcome!

Neither, actually!

When God embedded age into His creation, there was nothing to violate, as embedded age [objects] came into existence both ex nihilo and ex materia.

I suppose you could say it was a violation of the ageing process, but then, nothing had ever aged before.

That's a tough question!

Let me ask differently:
Since your definition of "miracle" is practically ex negativo (that which violates the laws of nature) - isn´t identifying the laws of nature a necessary prerequisite for identifying "miracles"?
Which method is the best to investigate what the laws of nature are (so that, in a second step, we can attempt to spot "miracles"), in your opinion?

 

[AV1611VET]

Let me ask differently:
Since your definition of "miracle" is practically ex negativo (that which violates the laws of nature) - isn´t identifying the laws of nature a necessary prerequisite for identifying "miracles"?
Which method is the best to investigate what the laws of nature are (so that, in a second step, we can attempt to spot "miracles"), in your opinion?

I don't really know, Quatona.

Thaumaturgy isn't one of my fields of expertise.