Homosexuality

[Hakan101]

I have listened to your podcast and I think you are right Mr. VertigoAge. There is never an absolute loss of hope with God's conviction. Still, I am reminded of a sermon I heard recently in which the pastor stated that many churches in America today have become too accepting of sin, that they tell people "God is okay with what you do," when in truth, he is not.

In that sermon, the pastor said that all you have to say to those who sin is "The Bible says" and then read what it says about the sin. But I suppose your view on interpretation does come into light here, and I think that can be good and bad. For I remember another sermon by Benny Hinn, in which he talks about the different powers and principalities in the world. He mentioned how one of the more unrecognizeable ways the forces of evil can deceive you is by twisting the Scripture to justify sin. They will sound like they are speaking the truth from the word of God, but they are tricking you into doing sin.

In truth, this is why I find Condemnation and Conviction to be confusing, for I do not want to condemn people when I know of God's forgiveness, but at the same time I also do not want to say it is okay for people to deliberately sin against God, while claiming they are a Christian (I know many people do this anyways including myself sometimes, but it is by no means right).

 

[Peripatetic]

First off, let me clarify to everyone in this thread that I am not arguing for an interpretation that "God is OK with homosexuality". As stated earlier, my belief is that the orientation itself is not a sin (just as being a heterosexual sex addict is not a sin when kept under control). However, if those impulses cause you to sin, then it is sin and God doesn't accept that behavior. Hakan: you are correct in saying that some churches have become too permissive. That too is just another form of interpretation. Not one that I agree with though.

Where condemnation becomes dangerous is when we switch from condemning the behavior to condemning the person. We all have sinful patterns, but we all rely on God's grace and forgiveness. I believe that a Homosexual can do the same, and does not need me to be judging him or saying he can't be a Christian.

And my point about the double-standard comes from the fact that many Christians would condemn a homosexual who treats everyone kindly more quickly than they would a promiscuous heterosexual who treats women badly. One they might call an abomination, while the other they might label a rogue or bad boy. I'm not sure God would see it that way, but that's just my "interpretation".

 

[Peripatetic]

Sorry! I accidentally edited Hakan's post with mine. Let me see if I can figure out how to fix it. "Mod in training" mistake...

[edit] Fixed now. Hakan's post is back in place (two posts up).

 

[heymikey80]

Okay. I guess that would bring up a few other questions for me. I'm not even really putting myself in a position to debate here, since I'm not nearly as Bible-literate as I should like to be.

1) Is there really any reason to condemn homosexuality other than because homosexual relationships do not bear children and God appears to say so? While I think there are things God does that we can never understand, condemning homosexuality has caused an enormous amount of pain and suffering for people over thousands of years - people who would renounce it in a second if they at all felt as though their orientation was a choice. To think He would do this, knowing the consequences and without providing much of an explanation for his decision, seems cruel.

Y'hafta realize, it's simply repeating the condemnation of God, and I find very, very often it's not justified to be strident about such things: rather to humbly realize we're in the same category with others. Making such statements is required by people who are here to faithfully talk about what God's instructed us to talk about. I know people who would renounce God's assertions about homosexuality if they could, too.

God certainly does have purposes for marriage relationships beyond bearing children. It's a pattern of redemption; an illustration of His relationship with the church; a creational lesson that we're made for relationship, and indeed relationships which are different, with different creational types. We're not egalitarians when it comes to relationships, that is: not everyone has an equal claim on our interests.

2) When do you believe sexual desire morphs into lust? I say, "happens to involve sex" because - as I understand it - sex is a pretty integral part of marriage for many (but not all) couples.

Lust is a placement of sex as more important than the relationships it was created for; lust puts sex as a goal; while God puts sex as an instrument for the closest of human models of His relationship with humanity.

Many people point to the purpose of procreation, but even that's a minimizing purpose in comparison with what God's interested in building between men & women (Ep 5:21ff). He created us for this (Gn 2:18,20b).

C.S. Lewis' book, "The Four Loves", is a good introduction to the meaning of the four Greek concepts translated "love". The chief one used in Scripture, "agapae", is the one that places them all in the proper order. It's central to Christianity, and that's why it concludes like this.

If both partners are committed to and respect each other in all aspects of their relationship, is having a healthy sex life somehow not okay?

All things are created by God for moral purpose; going against the purposes of sex in creation and redemption is inherently going to be a sin.

All this said, some kind of rancorous or violent opposition to a sin outside the bounds of law and redemption -- that's just ... nuts. Sin isn't successfully opposed by more sin.

 

[TheWorldsEnemy]

Corinthians 6:9-10
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Its clearly written there. I do believe if you truly give your life to God and ask him to help you overcome these desires that they will be eliminated. I do not judge but I believe in the Word of GOD and thats why I had to abstain from all alcohol. I am an alcoholic and I believe that alcohol is fine however I know what happens if I take just one drink so I dont. I ask GOD every day to help me relieve my obsessions and without him I would not be 23 days sober today. With GOD all things in good are possible! I will pray for you.

 

[Peripatetic]

Corinthians 6:9-10
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Its clearly written there.

That passage may point out that homosexual acts are sinful, but I think it needs careful interpretation to say more. For if homosexuals can't be Christians (the question raised in this thread), then it also says the same for the covetous. That would eliminate most of us (including Paul himself, as he clearly admits to struggling with coveting in Romans 7:7-14).

 

[Hakan101]

That passage may point out that homosexual acts are sinful, but I think it needs careful interpretation to say more. For if homosexuals can't be Christians (the question raised in this thread), then it also says the same for the covetous. That would eliminate most of us (including Paul himself, as he clearly admits to struggling with coveting in Romans 7:7-14).

That is true, if it was as simple as that it would conflict with Corinthians 6:9-11 (TheWorldsEnemy has posted this, but he has forgotten verse 11, which I believe is important to the interpretation of this message).

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

This last verse I think is necessary to show because I think it is showing the grace of God. Notice the three verbs that are used, "washed," "sanctified," and "justified." While I believe some people may interpret this as saying those people Paul refers to do not commit those sins anymore, I think it might be telling us that although we may still fall into those sins (we will never be able to completely not sin in this life), we can still enter God's kingdom because of Jesus. For Jesus washed our sins, sanctified us, and justified our salvation when he died on the cross.

Though it may have been already stated, I felt it was necessary to say this because I still agree with Mr. VertigoAge and his idea that conviction always has the hope of God. Using only Corinthians 6:9-10 seems like cold condemnation, but if you were to look at the following verse 11, you would see that we will always have the grace of God.

 

[Phinehas2]

Is their anyway that gays can be christian ?

yes of course, already seen testimonies to this here on CF where people who now identify in Christ who once identified themselves as gay.
Read 1 Corinthians 6, the power of God to change people’s hearts and minds doesn’t just apply to homosexuality.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Is their anyway that gays can be christian ?

Is there any way homophobes can be Christian?

I think not. It's a personal choice, but it does seem to rule out being charitable towards one's enemy, which is one of Christ's demands of us.


Best wishes, 2RM

 

[Phinehas2]

2ndratemind,

Is there any way homophobes can be Christian?

Like gays if they have their hearts and minds changed to conform to Christ then can. Read Galatians 5 as above.

I think not.

Then you disagree with God as above.

It's a personal choice, but it does seem to rule out being charitable towards one's enemy, which is one of Christ's demands of us.

well its not being charitable to anyone accepting and encouraging sin that leads to death. A Christian holds Bible based Christian views, not non-Christian ones.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm, Phinehas.

I tend to think that matters of castigating this sexuality or that are matters of culture, quite separate from the basic Christian demands of belief. I see no reason why the Apostle's creed, for example, cannot be just as devoutly recited by a homosexual as by a heterosexual.

Now, I am suspicious of the Christian desire to define itself by belief, but I understand (perhaps in error) that this is where most Christians position themselves. So, if they do, and homosexuality is a matter of being, not believing, where is your problem?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[Phinehas2]

2ndratemind,

Hmmm, Phinehas.

I tend to think that matters of castigating this sexuality or that are matters of culture, quite separate from the basic Christian demands of belief.

As I have said and has been demonstrated your view is not a Christian view at all, the word of God is foolishness to the world.

The word I see no reason why the Apostle's creed, for example, cannot be just as devoutly recited by a homosexual as by a heterosexual.

The creeds are statements of faith, what Christians believe, drawn from the scriptures which show heterosexual and homosexual are faulty concepts. Believers in Christ are not identified by their sexual attractions but their attraction to Christ’s truth.

Now, I am suspicious of the Christian desire to define itself by belief, but I understand (perhaps in error) that this is where most Christians position themselves.

All Christians position themselves by their belief and faith in Christ. The first time believers were called Christians is recorded in the NT as at Antioch.

So, if they do, and homosexuality is a matter of being, not believing, where is your problem?

Those believers, Christians, see that it is not a matter of being what they think they are but who they have become in Christ.
Your is a non-christian view as God created male and female, man and woman to be in union

 

[HaloHope]

Is there any way homophobes can be Christian?

I think not. It's a personal choice, but it does seem to rule out being charitable towards one's enemy, which is one of Christ's demands of us.


Best wishes, 2RM

Very good post.


Yep, you can definately be Christian and gay, I see no issue with being both.

In fact there are many gay Christians out there, and the only people who do sometimes take issue with it tend to be a few other Christians.

 

[gray100]

Very good post.


Yep, you can definately be Christian and gay, I see no issue with being both.

In fact there are many gay Christians out there, and the only people who do sometimes take issue with it tend to be a few other Christians.

Hi Halohope
Totally agree with you here. Nothing wrong with being a Christian and being gay. I have had the privilege of getting to know people who are both and they are some of the kindest people I know.

 

[razeontherock]

I am gay and im content to be gay.

This is sincerity! That's the first step. We all have sin we love. We all need help known as Grace, and we all get it the same way.

If you agree w/ G-d about what sin is, and homosexuality clearly is sin, you will find help. That doesn't guarantee no struggle, but many people are instantly delivered.

OTOH, being content w/ our sin is rejection of Christ, which has ... consequences.

 

[Skipton]

you can definately be a homosexual and a christian, and a paedophile and a christian as we keep seeing, but you have to do the latter in secret. both are condemned by God, but homosexual christians have their own religion.
Jesus Christ however said many will say lord lord but He wont know them all.

 

[HELENz]

I second HaloHope and Gray,

Yes. There is no issue with being both.

 

[abanoubchrist]

I don't see no reason why not, and there are many people who will pull out passages from the Bible to prove one way or the other.

The biggest barrier I think to being gay in the church, is being in a gay relationship - after all, no sex outside of marriage and all that. It gets me a bit frustrated that the church doesn't want to perform gay marriage because you have to ask, what is so special about a heterosexual marriage? Nothing really, apart from having kids, which isn't a strict requirement?

At least the Mormons have the whole idea of spirit children.

How can you say that?? Don't you know that homosexuality is forbidden in Christianity?? Gays can be Christians, but they cann't enter Heaven. You know
​

Sodom and Gomorrah God burned it down because of homosexuality.
So the Church cannot accept such kind of marrige.

 

[addo]

Homosexual people can be Christians. They are just called to a life of celibacy. You may ask: why? Because it is a sin to practice homosexual erotic acts (Romans 1:26-27). So if you want to be a Christian, you must not sin, and since it is a sin, you must not do it. So if you are a Christian, you can't have homosexual erotic acts.

But why is a heterosexual different and he can? Well, marriage is between man and woman (Genesis 3:24) and sex can only be done in marriage (1 Corinthians 7:9). Thus, homosexual marriage is an oxymoron like "harmless sin" or "pretty ugly" or "black light".

They are called to a life of celibacy. Doesn't Jesus say that some people were born not able to have sex [in the future] (Matthew 19:12)? If they were born so, what are they going to do? They cannot change. Homosexual aren't born homosexual, but because of unfortunate circumstances they become homosexuals. What are they going to do? None, as far as I know, were able to transform from homosexual to heterosexuals. They cannot change (at least, none could change, as far as I know). So if they want to be Christians, they are called to a life without erotic acts. They are called to a life of celibacy. Paul said that being a celibate is better than having sex and creating a family. Doing so is not wrong, but avoiding it would spare us of a lot of problems (1 Corinthians 7:28). Homosexuals cannot have sex, thus are called to a life of celibacy (if they want to be Christians), in the same way like those that are born eunuchs. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)

 

[Peripatetic]

Homosexual people can be Christians. They are just called to a life of celibacy.

As much as it pains me to say it, this is probably my interpretation of the Biblical view too. It makes me sad though, because it would be a very difficult burden to carry for an entire lifetime. We all have orientations that lead to sin. Some are prone to rage, addictions, lust, idolatry, pride, etc... but this one seems to be especially tough. Even if they are failing in their struggle (or don't even see it as sin yet), I still think they can be Christians. Otherwise we should all worry.

So if you want to be a Christian, you must not sin, and since it is a sin, you must not do it.

It isn't that straightforward. The "it" in the quote above could also refer to gossiping, coveting, holding grudges, boasting, idolizing money, and many other things that many of us do. Since we are Christians, we "must not" do any of those things, but we are weak, and we do them anyway. That's why we need God's grace and forgiveness. As I've said before, anyone who has sex outside of marriage is sinning. So is a person who lusts. People just tend to think homosexuals are "worse" because they can't identify with them.