Homosexuality

[rcorlew]

*sigh*

'Abandoning' means to forsake or relinquish or leave behind something that one was previously accustomed to doing, believing, etc. If men 'abandoned' their natural use of women then they were obviously heterosexual men who previously (prior to abandoning) had sexual relations with women. Furthermore, they were men who were more than likely married ...to a woman. Do you really not see this or are you simply being obstinate?

Okay, now we agree on this point they were heterosexual men who were apparently committing indecent acts (I guess we are left to imagine what that might mean) with other men. What we need to determine here is WHY were heterosexual men behaving in this way? It is quite obviously referring to ritualistic pagan practices that revolved around the worship of false idols. Any Bible scholar who does not acknowledge the above as being more than likely an explanation for this scripture is being intentionally deceptive!

Your exegesis is flawed as there is no possessive property mentioned in that verse in regards to a person's former sexual life.

26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. (AS) For even their females exchanged natural sexual intercourse [r] for what is unnatural. 27 The males in the same way also left natural sexual intercourse [s] with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males (AT) and received in their own persons [t] the appropriate penalty for their perversion. [u]

Scripture is never deceptive, it is the result of imparting our own desires into the scriptures that causes deception,

 

[Jase]

KCKID,
see my post on the other thread. If the pro-gay argument cant see for example the Romans 1 passage which describes as part of supressing the truth of God as men abandoning the natural use of women and committing indecent acts with other men whcih is error, but suggest it is temple prostitution which isnt mentioned, then that is either some massive spiritual blindness, or serious halucination. What the pro-gay argument certainly isnt is the word of God.

Wow, if you guys actually understood the very scripture you use to hate other people, you might not hate them any longer.

What's very amusing is, by you falsely believing that Romans 1 is targeted at gays - a non-existant population in Paul's day. You are claiming that God turned gay people over to their shameful lusts and made them gay to punish them.

Makes perfect sense for God doesn't it? Let's make gay people gay - that'll teach them!

 

[addo]

It's 'easy to understand' as long as one turns off the logical part of their brains and simply 'accepts' a well-known story at face value.

What story?

By the way, that was not intended to be offensive.

Another 'by the way' ...you never acknowledged my having responded to your having asked of me 'where does it say that planting different crops side by side is an abomination'? I DID respond although I can't for the life of me find this particular post since the search feature appears not to be working.

Don't worry; I'll wait for you to provide a link to your post.

 

[Jase]

Your exegesis is flawed as there is no possessive property mentioned in that verse in regards to a person's former sexual life.



Scripture is never deceptive, it is the result of imparting our own desires into the scriptures that causes deception,

Why is it that you guys are completely unwilling to even learn and understand the very scripture you condemn people with? Romans 1:26-27 is not targeting homosexuals. It makes absolutely no sense in context - none.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

You'll notice in the intro, it's talking about Christians who returned to their old ways of Paganism. They worshipped pagan idols in the form of birds, animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

In verse 24, we see what they were doing during those pagan rituals - sexual orgies, common in Pagan worship practice.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

So God gave them up to their pagan sex practices by changing their natural state. Women exchanged their natural relations with unnatural. This line clearly shows that these women and men were heterosexual, because in order for God to exchange their natural relations for their unnatural relations, and we know the end result is same-sex pagan behavior, they had to have started as non same-sex behavior. It is unnatural (more accurately translated as unconventional) for a heterosexual to engage in same-sex behavior. But that's what God had these people do, by exchanging their natural inclinations to that which they are not meant for.

Homosexuals are naturally inclined to be attracted to their same-sex. So it would make no sense for God to force them to change to what they already naturally are. By God changing them to engage in sexual behavior that is contrary to their nature, Paul is pointing out the danger of idolatry. He is indicating the penalty of converting to Christianity from Paganism, only to return to Paganism, engage in heterosexual sex orgies, and became vile, murderous, greedy, shameful human beings.

While this verse is the most often used to condemn gays - both men and women, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Paul is indicating that God punished pagan heterosexuals for their sexual idolism, by turning them into something that they would have seen as shameful and perverted, due to it being against their nature.

To put it in a modern analogy - imagine a macho, tough guy who tries as hard as he can to sleep with as many women as possible every night. He's your typical jock. He, like many macho guys in modern society, is also extremely homophobic - and while he has no problem hitting on women all night, he would beat up a gay guy if that guy hit on him.

Now imagine that to punish this tough guy for his promiscuity and homophobia, you could make him gay - so that he no longer hit on women, but hit on other men. How shameful and perverted do you think Mr. tough guy would feel now that the thing that digusts him the most is what he engages in?

 

[Phinehas2]

Jase,
We cant help it if you see what the Bible says as hateful, we trust and believe in God and His word. The pro-gay argument doesn’t, it suppresses the truth.

 

[Phinehas2]

Jase,
The text does say those who God’s wrath is against all unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth.
It does say that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped other things.
It does say therefore God gave them over to sinful desires such as the degrading of the their bodies.
Its says because of this they exchanged natural relations.
It says because of this He gave them over to a depraved mind to do things they ought not to do and become filled with every kind of wickedness.

So God gave them up to their pagan sex practices by changing their natural state.

No God didn’t change their natural state, they suppressed the truth, as your argument is now doing, and thus God gave them over to abandon natural relations, not their natural relations but natural relations.
You aren’t reading the text properly.

Women exchanged their natural relations with unnatural.

Wrong!!! No translation says ‘their’ , the Greek does not say ‘their’. Your argument is doing what Romans 1 warns, suppressing the truth.
And thus modern heterosexual and homosexual pro-gay concepts are suppressing the truth of God.

 

[Jase]

Jase,
We cant help it if you see what the Bible says as hateful, we trust and believe in God and His word. The pro-gay argument doesn’t, it suppresses the truth.

I don't see what the Bible says as hateful, I see what you say as hateful, because you are misrepresenting scripture to further your own prejudice. You willfully ignore every piece of evidence indicating your position is wrong, because if you ever changed your view, you would no longer have justification to hate gays.

 

[Jase]

Ja
Its says because of this they exchanged natural relations.
It says because of this He gave them over to a depraved mind to do things they ought not to do and become filled with every kind of wickedness.

How does a homosexual exchange natural relations (same-sex behavior) into unnatural relations (same-sex behavior). You are claiming that every person Paul is speaking to is gay, and God gave them over, letting them be gay.Where is the exchange of natural to unnatural occurring if everyone is already gay?

It makes no sense. Paul was talking to heterosexuals. God gave heterosexuals over to that which is unnatural. The men exchanged the normal use of a woman, for each other. Gay men don't have a normal use for a woman. They are not attracted to women. Their natural use is with other men.

No God didn’t change their natural state, they suppressed the truth, as your argument is now doing, and thus God gave them over to abandon natural relations, not their natural relations but natural relations. [/color]

You aren’t reading the text properly.

I'm reading the text just fine. Heterosexuals going contrary to their nature, to engage in same-sex behavior is God's punishment here.

 

[onemorequestion]

Why is it that you guys are completely unwilling to even learn and understand the very scripture you condemn people with? Romans 1:26-27 is not targeting homosexuals. It makes absolutely no sense in context - none.

Romans condemns homosexuality in no uncertain terms. It's direct and blatant. Why is it you guys are unwilling to stop trying to encourage Christians to engage in homosexuality when the consistent voice of scripture is that same gender sexuality is wrong behavior FOR Christians. As even YOU point out.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

You'll notice in the intro, it's talking about Christians who returned to their old ways of Paganism. They worshipped pagan idols in the form of birds, animals and reptiles.

Nope. Paul makes it clear that everyone knows God. You haven't established "Christians" backsliding at all. It makes it clear that pagans are not believers.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

In verse 24, we see what they were doing during those pagan rituals - sexual orgies, common in Pagan worship practice.

How is homosexuality degrading when as YOU guys claim, it is a natural and wonderful thing to do?

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

So God gave them up to their pagan sex practices by changing their natural state. Women exchanged their natural relations with unnatural. This line clearly shows that these women and men were heterosexual, because in order for God to exchange their natural relations for their unnatural relations, and we know the end result is same-sex pagan behavior, they had to have started as non same-sex behavior.

Once again, you employ circular reasoning. YOU already believe that homosexuality is natural and acceptable via 21st century liberalism and you force your argument to fit your position and belief system, rather than altering your views for God's.

It is unnatural (more accurately translated as unconventional) for a heterosexual to engage in same-sex behavior.

That is not the way gay is presented today. Anyone can choose what sex they want to have. How fascinating that your ARE CONDEMNING homosexuality here. So we can strike the hate charge off the liberalism books. Homosexuality IS a sin.

But that's what God had these people do, by exchanging their natural inclinations to that which they are not meant for.

Inclinations? What a tactic that is. It does not indicate that in the text:

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Homosexuals are naturally inclined to be attracted to their same-sex.

Are you trying to say that "God" can change straight people gay, but can't change gay people straight? Your own attempt a logic is defeating your positions. Romans 1 would show the exact opposite IF and WHEN connected to the consistent testimony of the New Testament.

So it would make no sense for God to force them to change to what they already naturally are.

But God can change (and did per you) heterosexuals into homosexuals? That is still condemnation of homosexuality. In a most fantastic and horrific way. God really depraves people by making them gay? Are you seeing what you are writing?

By God changing them to engage in sexual behavior that is contrary to their nature, Paul is pointing out the danger of idolatry.

"Their nature???" It doesn't say that. It says the exchanged the natural, for the unnatural. The very physiology of the body proves that Paul says God condemns homosexuality.

He is indicating the penalty of converting to Christianity from Paganism, only to return to Paganism, engage in heterosexual sex orgies, and became vile, murderous, greedy, shameful human beings.

By engaging in homosexuality. YOU are saying that. That puts homosexuality in the reprobate category.

While this verse is the most often used to condemn gays - both men and women, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Paul is indicating that God punished pagan heterosexuals for their sexual idolism, by turning them into something that they would have seen as shameful and perverted, due to it being against their nature.

God turned straight people into homosexuals to utterly give them up? That is astounding theology Jase.

To put it in a modern analogy - imagine a macho, tough guy who tries as hard as he can to sleep with as many women as possible every night. He's your typical jock. He, like many macho guys in modern society, is also extremely homophobic - and while he has no problem hitting on women all night, he would beat up a gay guy if that guy hit on him.

Now imagine that to punish this tough guy for his promiscuity and homophobia, you could make him gay - so that he no longer hit on women, but hit on other men.

How shameful and perverted do you think Mr. tough guy would feel now that the thing that disgusts him the most is what he engages in?

So here you are once again, claiming that God gave a person up to a depraved mind by having them engage in homosexuality. Actualy your position is, that God turns people to homosexuality and condemns them and "gives them up," once they become this, as you say, engages in shameful and perverted things.

For the record.

And Paul deals with Christians doing what pagans do . . . and condemns it . . . in Romans 2.

 

[onemorequestion]

I'm reading the text just fine. Heterosexuals going contrary to their nature, to engage in same-sex behavior is God's punishment here.

Then the preaching against homosexuality is in no way improper PER YOU.

For the record.

 

[onemorequestion]

bump

Why is it that you guys are completely unwilling to even learn and understand the very scripture you condemn people with? Romans 1:26-27 is not targeting homosexuals. It makes absolutely no sense in context - none.

Romans condemns homosexuality in no uncertain terms. It's direct and blatant. Why is it you guys are unwilling to stop trying to encourage Christians to engage in homosexuality when the consistent voice of scripture is that same gender sexuality is wrong behavior FOR Christians. As even YOU point out.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

You'll notice in the intro, it's talking about Christians who returned to their old ways of Paganism. They worshipped pagan idols in the form of birds, animals and reptiles.

Nope. Paul makes it clear that everyone knows God. You haven't established "Christians" backsliding at all. It makes it clear that pagans are not believers.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

In verse 24, we see what they were doing during those pagan rituals - sexual orgies, common in Pagan worship practice.

How is homosexuality degrading when as YOU guys claim, it is a natural and wonderful thing to do?

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

So God gave them up to their pagan sex practices by changing their natural state. Women exchanged their natural relations with unnatural. This line clearly shows that these women and men were heterosexual, because in order for God to exchange their natural relations for their unnatural relations, and we know the end result is same-sex pagan behavior, they had to have started as non same-sex behavior.

Once again, you employ circular reasoning. YOU already believe that homosexuality is natural and acceptable via 21st century liberalism and you force your argument to fit your position and belief system, rather than altering your views for God's.

It is unnatural (more accurately translated as unconventional) for a heterosexual to engage in same-sex behavior.

That is not the way gay is presented today. Anyone can choose what sex they want to have. How fascinating that your ARE CONDEMNING homosexuality here. So we can strike the hate charge off the liberalism books. Homosexuality IS a sin.

But that's what God had these people do, by exchanging their natural inclinations to that which they are not meant for.

Inclinations? What a tactic that is. It does not indicate that in the text:

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Homosexuals are naturally inclined to be attracted to their same-sex.

Are you trying to say that "God" can change straight people gay, but can't change gay people straight? Your own attempt a logic is defeating your positions. Romans 1 would show the exact opposite IF and WHEN connected to the consistent testimony of the New Testament.

So it would make no sense for God to force them to change to what they already naturally are.

But God can change (and did per you) heterosexuals into homosexuals? That is still condemnation of homosexuality. In a most fantastic and horrific way. God really depraves people by making them gay? Are you seeing what you are writing?

By God changing them to engage in sexual behavior that is contrary to their nature, Paul is pointing out the danger of idolatry.

"Their nature???" It doesn't say that. It says the exchanged the natural, for the unnatural. The very physiology of the body proves that Paul says God condemns homosexuality.

He is indicating the penalty of converting to Christianity from Paganism, only to return to Paganism, engage in heterosexual sex orgies, and became vile, murderous, greedy, shameful human beings.

By engaging in homosexuality. YOU are saying that. That puts homosexuality in the reprobate category.

While this verse is the most often used to condemn gays - both men and women, it has nothing to do with homosexuality. Paul is indicating that God punished pagan heterosexuals for their sexual idolism, by turning them into something that they would have seen as shameful and perverted, due to it being against their nature.

God turned straight people into homosexuals to utterly give them up? That is astounding theology Jase.

To put it in a modern analogy - imagine a macho, tough guy who tries as hard as he can to sleep with as many women as possible every night. He's your typical jock. He, like many macho guys in modern society, is also extremely homophobic - and while he has no problem hitting on women all night, he would beat up a gay guy if that guy hit on him.

Now imagine that to punish this tough guy for his promiscuity and homophobia, you could make him gay - so that he no longer hit on women, but hit on other men.

How shameful and perverted do you think Mr. tough guy would feel now that the thing that disgusts him the most is what he engages in?

So here you are once again, claiming that God gave a person up to a depraved mind by having them engage in homosexuality. Actualy your position is, that God turns people to homosexuality and condemns them and "gives them up," once they become this, as you say, engages in shameful and perverted things.

For the record.

And Paul deals with Christians doing what pagans do . . . and condemns it . . . in Romans 2.

 

[Merlin]

On the other hand, I haven't seen any scripture which says a man cannot be in a committed and loving relationship.

as long as there's no sex

 

[onemorequestion]

as long as there's no sex

The very message of Jesus to His followers were of a committed life-long relationship one to another.

To try to homosexualize that message of the Gospel is where Paul's work in Romans 1 comes into play. It will only work in the negative direction for the believer.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Closing this thread for staff review ​