Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[AetheriusLamia]

It's nauseating to me to see how many people address absence of evidence as evidence of absence.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!

Think logically! Just because the Bible doesn't mention airplanes doesn't mean God didn't mean for them to be accepted.

 

[MrPirate]

I agree with that completely. At the same time, however, there are cultures today that have a morality about certain behaviours that runs totally contrary to ours. Some non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an honour code that deems it righteous to kill out of honour,

Judges 11:29-40
1 Kings 13:1-2
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
2 Samuel 2: 18-14
Leviticus. 20:9
Exodus 32:38

or lie or steal if "necessary", for example--the situational ethic.

Joshua 2:4-6
Exodus 1:18-20
1 Kings 2:21-22

 

[Floatingaxe]

Judges 11:29-40[/color][/font]
1 Kings 13:1-2
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
2 Samuel 2: 18-14
Leviticus. 20:9
Exodus 32:38
Joshua 2:4-6
Exodus 1:18-20
1 Kings 2:21-22

[/color][/size][/font]

If you have a ready argument, try offering it instead of pasting bible verses. Expound! If you think we are all going to look them up, forget it.

They are most likely out of context.

 

[Zecryphon]

Off topic... I 'd like to suggets you read The Case for a Creator.

Or perhaps More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell as well? She seems to have issues with the authority and reliability of the scriptures as well.

 

[MrPirate]

If you have a ready argument, try offering it instead of pasting bible verses. Expound! If you think we are all going to look them up, forget it.

They are most likely out of context.

So you are unwilling to actually read the bible. Why am I not surprised?

 

[MrPirate]

There is more proof for the latter than for the former!

Really?


That is news.

Why don’t you post a few dozen published, peer reviewed studies showing that homosexuality is in fact a choice or is the result of how one was raised or the result of childhood sexual trauma or any familial, social or psychological variable.

Since you claim there are so many of them it shouldn’t be hard at all.

Unless of course you knowing lied in your claim about there being “more proof” in which case I would expect you to claim that you don’t feel the need to bother.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I could, but to be honest, it's not worth the effort to do so, as those who receive it are unwilling and unbending. If for one minute I discerned that we have a real seeker for truth and one who is truly desirous to be free of the enslavement of homosexuality, you bet---I would consider the request eagerly.

In the meantime, it's a no-go. My heart is not in it to go deeper.

Of course, there will be the usual slings and arrows in response to this. Oh, well!

 

[lincolngreen50]

First of all, let me explain that I am against homosexuality, the lifestyle, not the person. Even God says that He loves the sinner, but hates the sin.

However, with homosexuality on the rise (even in my small, conservative community) I want to sharpen my sword of truth by seeking scripture.

No doubt, the majority on this site agree with me. So let me be the Devil's advocate arguing for homosexuality. I am not trying to make anyone mad, but just trying to sharpen my own sword. Please join me in this debate, as it has already in our church circles.

So, is homosexuality wrong? Prove it.

Homosexuality is unnatural. It is unchristian. It is a sin. God loves sinners but He hates sin. Those who turn against sin and turn to God will be rewarded in Heaven. In the Bible, scripture says that homosexuality is a sin and the Bible describes how those sins were punished. The Sodomites of Judah in Kings and how God punished them is an example to us all.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the people practiced Homosexuality and God destroyed those cities and now the Dead Sea lies where those two cities stood.
Satan tries to distort the words of the Bible in those people who try to justify their sin of Homosexuality.
They do not hear the word of God because their hearts have hardened against the Word of God
The Book of Revelation tells us of Gods word regarding the sin of Homosexuality.
Rev 22:14 states. Blessed are those who do His Commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the gates into the City.
Rev 22:15 States. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters and whoever loves and practices a LIE.
Please take note of the last phrase, and whoever loves and practices a lie because that is what Homosexuality is.

 

[lincolngreen50]

If you have a ready argument, try offering it instead of pasting bible verses. Expound! If you think we are all going to look them up, forget it.

They are most likely out of context.

Scripture is quoted because it is the Word of God but unbelievers quote scripture and try to distort it.
God loves sinners but not the sin.
If one wants everlasting life, one has to turn away from sin and mean it in ones heart.
If one asks God to forgive ones sins and mean it in ones heart, one will be born again.
Those who continue to sin and try to live a Lie by denying that sin will have everlasting torment in the depths of Hell.
It all comes down to belief.
If one believes in Heaven and Hell,everlasting life or everlasting torment the choice is easy but for an unbeliever Satan`s word can take hold and blind that person from the truth.
Those people will always be in our prayers.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Scripture is quoted because it is the Word of God but unbelievers quote scripture and try to distort it.
God loves sinners but not the sin.
If one wants everlasting life, one has to turn away from sin and mean it in ones heart.
If one asks God to forgive ones sins and mean it in ones heart, one will be born again.
Those who continue to sin and try to live a Lie by denying that sin will have everlasting torment in the depths of Hell.
It all comes down to belief.
If one believes in Heaven and Hell,everlasting life or everlasting torment the choice is easy but for an unbeliever Satan`s word can take hold and blind that person from the truth.
Those people will always be in our prayers.

Yes, brother. It is detestable that people fail to see the truth of God's Word, yet attempt to use God's very Word to promote the sin they love...truth to promote a lie. Weird.

Last days is upon us.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

Can I offer a differing view on this one that requires only one passage of scripture. (With reference to a few more)

If you come from the view that the Old and New Testaments are the inspired word of God, then it is very hard to prove that homosexuality isn't a sin, except upon the most liberal of interpretations and even then would basically require a person to say that it's a "change of time" Problem with that of course is almost everything can change in time, and therefore almost anything can then be justified as not sinful.

One of the things about homosexuality is that most homosexuals do believe they are born that way and it's how they are. It is therefore no surprise that they are quite against this idea that something they see as part of who they are as sinful. For example since I came to Christ I have stopped sinning a lot, (but still do) but never have I thought that the way God made me could be sinful (not meaning that my human nature isn't sinful).

But let's go back to the question what is sin? There are 7 main words used in the bible for sin. The meanings basically sums up to something to "fall short" or to deliberately infringe upon a law. But it doesn't easily define sin - and Jesus defines it for us implicitly in Luke 9:23-25, the greatest commandement (I hope the reference is right)

Love God, and closely behind it love others. Doesn't that mean then that anything that stops those two things, is sinful?

So for a homosexual, if they can accept the evidence that is given to them about the authority of the bible. If they can accept that the Old and New Testaments are incredibly well put together and do describe one story, and if they can accept that it is the inspired word of God - then it doesn't really matter what their interpretation of the homosexuality passages are - I think it's pretty clear that anything that disrupts love for God and love others is sin. So just as a straight couple who indulge in their relationship and their sexuality would commit a sin against God, so would a homosexual. And if homosexuality is disruptive to both a relationship with God, and with one and another, then it's a sin regardless.

Does arguing about homosexuality actually help edify and drive the purpose of the church? No, therefore it's a sin. If for a homosexual, their sexuality is driving a wedge between them and the body of Christ, then it is a sin regardless of how they interpret scripture in regards to homosexuality.

 

[Ave Maria]

I will quote from http://www.lds.org and that will be the end of my discussion here:

"We believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We believe that marriage may be eternal through exercise of the power of the everlasting priesthood in the house of the Lord. "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are. "We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71).

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSO...ceId=9c672f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

This is what I believe.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I will quote from http://www.lds.org and that will be the end of my discussion here:



http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSO...ceId=9c672f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

This is what I believe.

You're a mormon now? ; Do people hound you?
I wonder what people would think of the verse that talks about abstaining from something for the sake of others..

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Scripture is quoted because it is the Word of God but unbelievers quote scripture and try to distort it.
God loves sinners but not the sin.
If one wants everlasting life, one has to turn away from sin and mean it in ones heart.
If one asks God to forgive ones sins and mean it in ones heart, one will be born again.
Those who continue to sin and try to live a Lie by denying that sin will have everlasting torment in the depths of Hell.
It all comes down to belief.
If one believes in Heaven and Hell,everlasting life or everlasting torment the choice is easy but for an unbeliever Satan`s word can take hold and blind that person from the truth.
Those people will always be in our prayers.

You know what they say, who knows scripture the best?

[bible]Judges 11:29-40[/bible]
[bible]1 Kings 13:1-2[/bible]
[bible]Deuteronomy 13:13-19[/bible]
[bible]2 Samuel 2: 18-14[/bible]
[bible]Leviticus. 20:9[/bible]
[bible]Exodus 32:38[/bible]
[bible]Joshua 2:4-6[/bible]
[bible]Exodus 1:18-20[/bible]
[bible]1 Kings 2:21-22[/bible]

 

[lincolngreen50]

You know what they say, who knows scripture the best?

[bible]Judges 11:29-40[/bible]
[bible]1 Kings 13:1-2[/bible]
[bible]Deuteronomy 13:13-19[/bible]
[bible]2 Samuel 2: 18-14[/bible]
[bible]Leviticus. 20:9[/bible]
[bible]Exodus 32:38[/bible]
[bible]Joshua 2:4-6[/bible]
[bible]Exodus 1:18-20[/bible]
[bible]1 Kings 2:21-22[/bible]

Okay so what's the point?

Rehab was a prostitute...I know where you are getting at...but in this particular case, God uses Rehab, to hide those men, in order to bring down Jericho. She was saved for saving them but if she didn't hide them she would have perished along with the inhabitants of that city..God uses people whether sinner or not to do HIS WILL. (ie. Nebuchadnezzar punishing Israel). You need to understand the context of why she was saved...you are implying she was saved despite her sin when in fact, she was saved from dying that day with her fellow countrymen for hiding the two Israelis and not telling anyone of their plans. The story didn't imply her sins were forgiven. I would like to believe that after the fact, that she came to believe in God...seeing how he was with Israel and repented of her sins...but the bible does not even imply it.

As for Abishag the Shunammite, if you read 1 Kings 1 v 3v ...she was found for King David to care for him and lie with him but David never slept with she was still a virgin. His servants made that decision without his knowledge to use her as harlot. Adonijah was Solomon's half brother, who tried claim the kingdom from his father even before he was dead in the grave. He went to Solomon's mother to claim Abishag not for pleasure but for power because she knew all the dealings of the kingdom. When Adonijah asked for her, Solomon stated " Now why do you ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adoijah? Ask for him the kingdom also..." 1 Kings 2 v 22. If you read along Solomon makes a promise to be put his own half brother to death for even asking for her...It never states in the bible she slept with Solomon...or anyone...so if you are trying claim fornication or adultry...I am afraid you need to pick another story in the bible.

I am not sure where you are going with the story of Exodus but the midwives never carried out the story of murdering the children.

Like it states in John Chaper 1 v 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. His word is faithful and true and never changes. The bible is clear about ALL SINNERS no one is exempt not even I. God's law is perfect, it is man who is imperfect. Like the bible states in Revelation that those who loves and practices a lie will be excluded from heaven.

The question that needs to be asked on this particular thread: Should the bible define morality or should man define morality? Because it is what I am starting to realise what we all arguing about...not the sin itself but defination of what is moral or not and who has the authority to claim it is moral or immoral.

If man had to go by his own devices we would be like the days before the flood..."then the Lord saw that the wicknedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth and He was grieved in His heart" Gen 6 v 5-6. Have we really changed much?

 

[AetheriusLamia]

Can I offer a differing view on this one that requires only one passage of scripture. (With reference to a few more) ...

Very well said!

I completely agree. If it doesn't hurt the individual's relationship with God -- something only that individual and God know -- and doesn't hurt the individual's relationships with each other -- something, once again, between that person and the people with whom he interacts -- then it isn't a sin.

So really, it doesn't matter in the slightest if Floatingaxe thinks homosexuals are going to hell.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

I will quote from http://www.lds.org and that will be the end of my discussion here:



http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSO...ceId=9c672f2324d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

This is what I believe.

What is wrong with this forum, that quoting someone who quoted someone removes the quotation? It's a stupid error; can't it be corrected?

That being said: What is it about two adults living together in love that undermines Christian marriage? ... I thought that's what a Christian marriage was.

 

[JayJay77]

Undebateable Letter:
Dear Friends:
I'm the one who started this thread to seek discussion and truth regarding homosexuality. I came into this with my own opinions, but prayed for an open heart and ear to both sides of the debate. I must admit that I was incredibly niave to think that no support for same-sex relationships would be here. If you read my first post, that is apparent. That was not meant to offend.
Working out our doctrine is not a sin, as some imply. (However, going over the same old arguments in a circular way post after post with sarcasm gets old.) With that said, I plan on taking very exellent points on both sides here and meditating on them with God. I still believe homosexuality is wrong (again, non-debateable, just my point of view).
Let me take this time to say thanks for posting on here. If you wish to continue, do so without me. PM me if you wish to say something to me personally. Otherwise, thanks for making me a better studier of God's word by challenging my statements and thoughts, and backing up your own with scripture and other sources. I really do love all of you guys. Let us love Christ more and more, and push each other closer to Him!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Very well said!

I completely agree. If it doesn't hurt the individual's relationship with God -- something only that individual and God know -- and doesn't hurt the individual's relationships with each other -- something, once again, between that person and the people with whom he interacts -- then it isn't a sin.

So really, it doesn't matter in the slightest if Floatingaxe thinks homosexuals are going to hell.

I see that you really didn't read the post you are commenting on...





BTW: Where have I said that homosexuals are going to hell? I really wish you would cease from your baseless hatred and bigotry toward bible-believing Christians, and cease again with the small-minded personal comments.

 

[davedjy]

Does arguing about homosexuality actually help edify and drive the purpose of the church? No, therefore it's a sin.

Does arguing against homosexuality help edify and drive the Church? No, therefore it's a sin to argue = your same faulty concept spelled out.

If for a homosexual, their sexuality is driving a wedge between them and the body of Christ, then it is a sin regardless of how they interpret scripture in regards to homosexuality.

Which is why there are many different Christian Churches that believe different things. We have different denominations, just as such, we have gay and lesbian affirming Protestant Christian Churches.