Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[GodsoldierClintus]

Does arguing against homosexuality help edify and drive the Church? No, therefore it's a sin to argue = your same faulty concept spelled out.




Which is why there are many different Christian Churches that believe different things. We have different denominations, just as such, we have gay and lesbian affirming Protestant Christian Churches.

Does arguing against homosexuality help edify and drive the Church? No, therefore it's a sin to argue = your same faulty concept spelled out.

There's nothing wrong with working out doctorine - it's when working out doctrine and subscribing that view as the one correct view and campaigning for your religion and living in that religion as opposed to living in faith that makes it sinful. If by placing an argument which helps homosexuals to build their relationship with Christ, then its not a sin.

If however I was to debate for the sake of winning an argument, then yes, it's a sin.

 

[davedjy]

There's nothing wrong with working out doctorine - it's when working out doctrine and subscribing that view as the one correct view and campaigning for your religion and living in that religion as opposed to living in faith that makes it sinful. If by placing an argument which helps homosexuals to build their relationship with Christ, then its not a sin.

If however I was to debate for the sake of winning an argument, then yes, it's a sin.

Maybe I am not understanding what concept you are proposing here, so I apologize.

Is it just that, you are saying it is a sin to debate for the sake of winning an argument, as a summary of both posts? I agree, with that statement.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Which is why there are many different Christian Churches that believe different things. We have different denominations, just as such, we have gay and lesbian affirming Protestant Christian Churches.

You are driving a wedge. It is a sin to do so. So, even because of that, God is not in it--you drive Him far from you.

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't think scientists ever thought the Earth WAS flat did they? although the Early Christian church certainly did...

just like scientists were saying heliocentrism when the church was still saying geocentrism.

Yes, carbon dating is inaccurate, in that it only gives you a date to within a few decades or even centuries accuracy... but ts still incredibly accurate within its margin of error. Its nevers said "thing X is 100,000 years old when it is, in fact only a hundred years old"

Of course, dinosaurs aren't dated with carbon dating, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. Other forms of radiometric dating, dendochronology, geologic dating, sedimentation dates, and comparative genetics all point to dinosaurs having lived millions of years ago, but I guess the 100s of 1000s of trained professionals at different, independent institutes, who all come up with mutually supporting theories and figures independent of each other, all got it wrong and just happened to come up with the same figures?

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

 

[MrPirate]

I could, but to be honest, it's not worth the effort to do so, as those who receive it are unwilling and unbending. If for one minute I discerned that we have a real seeker for truth and one who is truly desirous to be free of the enslavement of homosexuality, you bet---I would consider the request eagerly.

In the meantime, it's a no-go. My heart is not in it to go deeper.

Of course, there will be the usual slings and arrows in response to this. Oh, well!

Unless of course you knowing lied in your claim about there being “more proof” in which case I would expect you to claim that you don’t feel the need to bother.

Score another one for me

 

[davedjy]

You are driving a wedge. It is a sin to do so. So, even because of that, God is not in it--you drive Him far from you.

By that standpoint, every "denomination", has separate beliefs, so they would all be "driving a wedge", by that same flawed logic.

 

[MrPirate]

Homosexuality is unnatural.

It occurs in nature

It is unchristian.

Hate and prejudice are unchristian. Being honest about how one is…that remains Christian

It is a sin.

That is your opinion. one unsupported by scripture

God loves sinners but He hates sin.

Catchphrase used to help justify prejudice…and a tired catchphrase at that

Those who turn against sin and turn to God will be rewarded in Heaven.

That includes people of all races, skin colors, and sexual orientations.

In the Bible, scripture says that homosexuality is a sin and the Bible describes how those sins were punished. The Sodomites of Judah in Kings and how God punished them is an example to us all.

A literal and contextual reading of the bible does not support this.

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the people practiced Homosexuality and God destroyed those cities and now the Dead Sea lies where those two cities stood.

" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.”
Ezekiel 16: 49
Sodom was destroyed because of inhospitality and greed

“When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.” Luke 10: 8-12
Sodom was destroyed because of inhospitality

And then “Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?"
And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. 28 In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now."
Deuteronomy 29:22- 28 –Sodom was destroyed because the people of Sodom were serving false Gods.;


Deuteronomy 32:15-33
the sin of Sodom was apathy, sacrifice to demons, idolatry and gluttony.

Isaiah chapter 1 - Sodom was destroyed because its people forsook God.

Matthew 10:14-15 and Matthew 11:23-24 Sodom was destroyed because its people rejected God

People will oppress each other—
man against man, neighbor against neighbor.
The young will rise up against the old,
the base against the honorable.
A man will seize one of his brothers
at his father's home, and say,
"You have a cloak, you be our leader;
take charge of this heap of ruins!"
But in that day he will cry out,
"I have no remedy.
I have no food or clothing in my house;
do not make me the leader of the people."
Jerusalem staggers,
Judah is falling;
their words and deeds are against the LORD,
defying his glorious presence.
The look on their faces testifies against them;
they parade their sin like Sodom;
they do not hide it.
Woe to them!
They have brought disaster upon themselves.
Isaiah 3:5-9
Sodom destroyed because its people were prejudiced

Satan tries to distort the words of the Bible in those people who try to justify their sin of Homosexuality.
They do not hear the word of God because their hearts have hardened against the Word of God
The Book of Revelation tells us of Gods word regarding the sin of Homosexuality.
Rev 22:14 states. Blessed are those who do His Commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the gates into the City.
Rev 22:15 States. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters and whoever loves and practices a LIE.

So…most Christians will be outside with the dogs then

Please take note of the last phrase, and whoever loves and practices a lie because that is what Homosexuality is.

What about the lie that sexual oriention can change?
What about the lie that Homosexuals are child molesters?
What about the lei that homosexuality is a choice?
What about the lie that gays and lesbians don’t want equality, they want “special rights”?
What about the lie that discrimination and prejudice against homosexuals are acceptable things?

 

[MrPirate]

Can I offer a differing view on this one that requires only one passage of scripture. (With reference to a few more)

If you come from the view that the Old and New Testaments are the inspired word of God, then it is very hard to prove that homosexuality isn't a sin, except upon the most liberal of interpretations

Actually it is with literal interpretation that it is shown that homosexuality is a sin…not liberal.

and even then would basically require a person to say that it's a "change of time" Problem with that of course is almost everything can change in time, and therefore almost anything can then be justified as not sinful.

Two points.

First the “change” in time has been the drift towards claiming homosexuality was a sin. 1 Corinthians historically denounced masturbators not homosexuals.

And second it takes little effort to write up a list of biblical sins that are no longer considered sinful by modern Christians and a list of activities hath were biblically accepted that hare rejected as sinful by modern Christians.

If you are trying to criticize one group for rejecting a message of sin that apparently does not and never existed, then first you must deal with the fact that you engage in practices clearly labeled as sin and decline to practices activities praised in the bible

One of the things about homosexuality is that most homosexuals do believe they are born that way and it's how they are. It is therefore no surprise that they are quite against this idea that something they see as part of who they are as sinful.

Leaving open the question of why God would make people the way they are yet declare that very being sinful.

But let's go back to the question what is sin? There are 7 main words used in the bible for sin. The meanings basically sums up to something to "fall short" or to deliberately infringe upon a law. But it doesn't easily define sin - and Jesus defines it for us implicitly in Luke 9:23-25, the greatest commandement (I hope the reference is right)

“Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?” Luke 9:23-25


the commandment of Jesus is detailed in John 13:34-35 Matthew 22:36-40. if we accept the commandment of Jesus and the notion we live under a new covenant then all other laws fall by the wayside as the commandment of Jesus covers everything. But if we follow the commandment of Jesus then to justify or argue for prejudice against homosexual is a sin

Love God, and closely behind it love others. Doesn't that mean then that anything that stops those two things, is sinful?

In which case homosexuality is not sinful at all

So for a homosexual, if they can accept the evidence that is given to them about the authority of the bible. If they can accept that the Old and New Testaments are incredibly well put together and do describe one story, and if they can accept that it is the inspired word of God - then it doesn't really matter what their interpretation of the homosexuality passages are - I think it's pretty clear that anything that disrupts love for God and love others is sin.

Including condemnation and prejudice towards this minority

So just as a straight couple who indulge in their relationship and their sexuality would commit a sin against God, so would a homosexual. And if homosexuality is disruptive to both a relationship with God, and with one and another, then it's a sin regardless.

Please explain how you come to the word “indulge”

And please explain how two adults in a committed loving relationship violates the commandment of Jesus

Does arguing about homosexuality actually help edify and drive the purpose of the church? No, therefore it's a sin.

Again please explain how “arguing” is harmful to the church

It seems you are saying that the issue it is not the “arguing” that is harmful, but rather the fact that there are people who do not share your personal prejudices that while not harmful, is something you don’t like.

If for a homosexual, their sexuality is driving a wedge between them and the body of Christ, then it is a sin regardless of how they interpret scripture in regards to homosexuality.

I notice you don’t condemn the prejudiced who drive a wedge between them and the body of Christ.

But that would require taking a good hard look at yourself and your position.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Score another one for me

Not in the end.

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

My point was that if you take a liberal view of the scriptures, then anything is permissible.

Quote:
One of the things about homosexuality is that most homosexuals do believe they are born that way and it's how they are. It is therefore no surprise that they are quite against this idea that something they see as part of who they are as sinful.

Leaving open the question of why God would make people the way they are yet declare that very being sinful.

When Jesus was asked why the man had an illness, he was asked - who sinned? The man or his parents? The answer that was that it happened so that the glory of God could be displayed. I see the same for homosexuality.

By indulge I mean if a relationship is the focus of a couple's life and not God, then at that point even that, a good thing, is sinful.

It's not prejudice - I base my view on scripture. I would be completely happy not to have to take this stand - I have gay friends, my best friend from high school is gay. I am not gay, but I have absolutely nothing against gay people.

But the scripture says what it says...if you can't accept that then you have to take a good hard look at how you interpret scripture. If their divine nature is put into question then everything else the scripture says is put into question - including who Jesus Christ is and what He did. You either believe or you don't - there's no middle ground.

 

[Brieuse]

You are driving a wedge. It is a sin to do so. So, even because of that, God is not in it--you drive Him far from you.

Who exactly is driving a wedge?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Who exactly is driving a wedge?

Homosexuals who claim they are righteous in their choice drive a wedge deep and sure between themselves and the Church of Jesus Christ.

They disbelieve what the Church believes and teaches, resulting in a faction. Anyone who promotes disunity in the Body--sins against God, by committing at the least, sedition.

 

[Brieuse]

Homosexuals who claim they are righteous in their choice drive a wedge deep and sure between themselves and the Church of Jesus Christ.

They disbelieve what the Church believes and teaches, resulting in a faction. Anyone who promotes disunity in the Body--sins against God, by committing at the least, sedition.

ahh ok.

And other churches that don't agree with your opinions on other matters? Such as pre-destination, worshipping on sat/sun, baptism etc etc Are they also under you judgment?

 

[GodsoldierClintus]

And on the point of denominations - I'm not sure if they are a sin or not. If the reformation and the split between the protestant churches and the roman catholic church never happened, then the sinful religious practice of the roman catholic church would have continued. So yes whilst there shouldn't be denominations, it occurs because man is inherently sinful and can't agree/tolerate each other.

And I never said that prejudice against homosexuals, hate or any of those things weren't sin. BUT to use your sexuality to disrupt the very divine nature of scripture, the very teachings used in the Bible is sinful. It's not a literal interpretation of the bible that suggests that homosexuality is sin. It's pretty black and white when passage after passage it condemns homosexuality. No ifs, not buts, it's pretty straight forward. And yes applications of scripture differ throughout time periods - but God doesn't change. If homosexuality is a sin back then, then it's a sin now. There's no point wasting any more of my time on this debate either so farewell, and God Bless.

 

[Brieuse]

And on the point of denominations - I'm not sure if they are a sin or not. If the reformation and the split between the protestant churches and the roman catholic church never happened, then the sinful religious practice of the roman catholic church would have continued. So yes whilst there shouldn't be denominations, it occurs because man is inherently sinful and can't agree/tolerate each other.

And I never said that prejudice against homosexuals, hate or any of those things weren't sin. BUT to use your sexuality to disrupt the very divine nature of scripture, the very teachings used in the Bible is sinful. It's not a literal interpretation of the bible that suggests that homosexuality is sin. It's pretty black and white when passage after passage it condemns homosexuality. No ifs, not buts, it's pretty straight forward. And yes applications of scripture differ throughout time periods - but God doesn't change. If homosexuality is a sin back then, then it's a sin now. There's no point wasting any more of my time on this debate either so farewell, and God Bless.

Passage after passage about homosexuality?

What bible do you read? :-s

You admit the applications of the bible can change, and you say we shouldn't try to correct it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

ahh ok.

And other churches that don't agree with your opinions on other matters? Such as pre-destination, worshipping on sat/sun, baptism etc etc Are they also under you judgment?

When a people differ as to what God says is sin, then there is division. The Word of God is there to give us a clear understanding of sin, along with the Holy Spirit. Division comes through unbelief and disobedience. Those who cause it, leave, and leave holding fast to their sin. It isn't a good thing.

It's subject to the judgment of God. In the meantime, there is considerable harm being done in people's lives, portraying sin as a virtue and promoting it, and we are told exactly what to do with the sexually immoral.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

 

[Floatingaxe]

Romans 1:24-32
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Brieuse]

Romans 1:24-32
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

We've already proven the mistranslations of those passages.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

We've already proven the mistranslations of those passages.

Hi Brieuse,

With those passages in particular I believe the argument against it is more of a misinterpretation issue than a translational one.

 

[mont974x4]

The problem with the "that's a bad translation" defense is that either way, the issue is covered. For example, if it was really an issue of monogomy then just mentioneing adultery would suffice. If it was just seex outside of marriage then fornication would cover things well. But, we have a whole list of sexual sins.

NASB

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.