Holiness

[11822]

Yes but your focus seems to be stealing where as the pro grace person doesn't even think about it. There is no dwelling on it. I did't say they're not tempted and can't fall (sin). Some are more affected by vanity than others. I have no desire for your stuff. I might find it usefull and therefore aquire (purchase) something similar or build it my self. These days need is more a motivating factor for me. It (need) has always been a more primary factor in my life.

That's not true. I use stealing only as an example, but are the apostles focusing on it too when they tell us not to do it? Your assertion is not biblical. If someone steals they should focus on not stealing, they should pray for Gods help and strength.

 

[11822]

Isn't the teaching of love good enough? Do you really have to be told what you don't like being done to you?

No. If it were good enough, the apostles would have done it that way. We must consider that sometimes we do need things explained to us. Sometimes we try to rationalize our sins, we are in denial over them. Why did Paul say let him who steals steal no more if he didn't think it was necessary?

 

[fhansen]

Do u see progressive sanctification here?

NRSV Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Yes,and if you read a little farther, you can see that the writer of Hebrews recognizes the possibilty that one can be sanctified and yet still reject it.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay, and again, “The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[11822]

What needs to be done? Does one have to go through the 613 laws found in the law and make a personal statement on each one to drive home the idea that they simply have no desire to perform the shalt nots of the law as a Christian. I think that this lack of desire comes from within a person by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for the Christian.

I can't speak for the unregenerate in this matter. It is that I also see this coming from inside a person. I will say that some are more given to evil than others. What better genes? I dunno.

It does contribute to more difficulty in reaching them for Jesus. The lack of holiness on the part of church goers makes it even more difficult to reach these people for Jesus. I too have no need of the behavior exhibited by most church goers who call themselves Christians. Holiness is a very real issue.

Its obvious that the OC law isn't our Guide necessarily and that some law is done away with as far as Gentiles are concerned for sure, i don't see anything wrong with the 10 CS, but i will say that whatever is in the NT should guide us. I once thought obeying Sabbath was Gods will, but after reading the NT more, i found out it might not be. Not that obeying it is evil, just that i believe if i follow the law in love, and seek Holiness and pray for God to change me while hoping in Jesus and walking in faith, then i think i will do well with just that. The NT is our Guide, backed up by the OT

 

[11822]

The lack of desire to obey God comes from self, not the Holy Spirit. To want to disobey God is unholy. And I'm sure we've all been there, but that doesnt' mean we shouldn't obey Him. The Holy Spirit prompts us to obey, never to disobey.

I think when someone views the law as ugly and damaging rather than given by God, it's going to look like a drudgery. But King David said 'oh how I love Your Law" and even Paul said the law is holy.

I agree.

 

[11822]

The desire to obey comes from the flesh wanting to prove it's good enough to be with God . this attitude nullifies the power of the cross .

Therefore, the risen life must be the reason and source for transformation not the deadness of the old written code .

Self righteousness obeys for the reason of self righteousness which is what you refer to i think, but that's not obedience anyway. However the desire to obey God comes from God, they are not the same thing.

 

[11822]

This is how St Basil put it:

If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.

God tells us to store up treasure in heaven and Hes not telling us to be mercenaries, God tells us to perfect Holiness in the fear of God, if anything it means we are slaves to our flesh because if we are not yet seeking Holiness. I'm not saying St basil is wrong by any means, i'm just expounding on what he said.

 

[11822]

The desire to obey comes through the flesh?? I'm not even answering this one.

As if Jesus and the apostles themselves don't tell us to obey.

 

[11822]

The flesh wants a list, but obedience is trusting God not knowing what he wants you to do next . the former is idolatry .

The teaching is false brother and just a way to accuse each other. Don't believe it. Jesus and the apostles gave us plenty to learn from.

 

[11822]

I've no desire to become holy or righteous because I already am according to Scripture. See Romans and Timothy for starters.

God tells us to follow peace and holiness, Its described by the apostles and we're told to follow it. We cant ignore what they teach us.

 

[11822]

Well, Jesus said that 'by their fruits you will know them'. I could turn your statement around and say that anyone can think they're a Christian in reality without truly being one. In any case, Catholics believe salvation is a process, worked out over time (we're saved, being saved, and will be saved). We have the confidence of salvation without the 100% certainty that only God is privy to. For our part we must continuously choose-we must persevere in doing right, in growing in faith, hope, and love for God, which expresses itself in how we live and treat others. IMO that's a balanced understanding of it all.

Thats sound biblical to me.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've no desire to become holy or righteous because I already am according to Scripture. See Romans and Timothy for starters.

Well i know that .. and if it comes from within then that's where God is who is both righteous and holy

i was taking a James approach, if they want a law, talk about the perfect law of liberty .

Well so far we have 3 different kinds or levels of the Temple.

did anyone mention that "i am the temple" i.e. the temple of their body yet?

 

[11822]

i was taking a James approach, if they want a law, talk about the perfect law of liberty .

James said "cleanse ye hands ye sinners, and humble yourselves before God".

 

[brinny]

What is it?

I ask because some seem to say holiness and righteosuness aren't the same thing.

No one will see God without holiness and yet righteousness is discussed in Scripture to imply holiness? I think there is more than one meaning of holiness or being holy. What do you think?

I think there is only one meaning torighteousness.

What i ponder on is the "holiness" of God. What is it?

 

[fhansen]

God tells us to store up treasure in heaven and Hes not telling us to be mercenaries, God tells us to perfect Holiness in the fear of God, if anything it means we are slaves to our flesh because if we are not yet seeking Holiness. I'm not saying St basil is wrong by any means, i'm just expounding on what he said.

Yes, he's rejecting the position of mercenaries -as an inferior one. And he's saying that, as a believer matures, fear is replaced more and more with genuine love for God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God tells us to follow peace and holiness, Its described by the apostles and we're told to follow it. We cant ignore what they teach us.

Young) John 14:27 Peace I leave to ye; My peace I give to ye,
not according as the world doth give do I give to ye;
let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid;

Young) John 16:33 these things I have spoken to you, that in Me ye may have peace, in the world ye shall have tribulation, but take courage--I have overcome the world.'

Rotherham) Romans 14:19 Hence then, the things pertaining to peace, let us pursue and the things which belong to the upbuilding one another

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

dang this thread has moved fast!

The fearsome twosome are in the top 4

from scratch 49

11822 39

JRSut1000 22

Frogster 22

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Nanopants To isolate the word here obfuscates its meaning. We have some options here, but they are limited since we know that whatever "perfect" means in this case, it is "perfect" as God is "perfect". Now we can either elevate the semantics of the word to the level of that which describes an aspect of God, or we can bring God down to our level to fit within our chosen definition.

Tell you what though. It sure causes a problem in most people's theology.

Ya noticed that also?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

James said "cleanse ye hands ye sinners, and humble yourselves before God".

Especially cooks in diners after they use the bathroom

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Young) Matthew 27:24 And Pilate having seen that it profiteth nothing, but rather a tumult is made, having taken water, he did wash the hands before the multitude, saying "I am innocent from the blood of this righteous one; ye--ye shall see"

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks 'be falling upon us! and hide us! from face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb
17 that came the great day of the wrath of Him, and who is able to stand'. [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

 

[11822]

Especially cooks in diners after they use the bathroom

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Young) Matthew 27:24 And Pilate having seen that it profiteth nothing, but rather a tumult is made, having taken water, he did wash the hands before the multitude, saying "I am innocent from the blood of this righteous one; ye--ye shall see"

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks 'be falling upon us! and hide us! from face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb
17 that came the great day of the wrath of Him, and who is able to stand'. [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

Yep, that's why i don't like restaurants.

I'm not afraid of Jesus, just afraid of not following Him. I love Jesus.