Holiness

[Frogster]

Do a word study on the word used there.

I think it means mature?

 

[from scratch]

I think it means mature?

Close enough.

 

[Nanopants]

Do a word study on the word used there.

τέλειος

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect

a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men

1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
​

To isolate the word here obfuscates its meaning. We have some options here, but they are limited since we know that whatever "perfect" means in this case, it is "perfect" as God is "perfect". Now we can either elevate the semantics of the word to the level of that which describes an aspect of God, or we can bring God down to our level to fit within our chosen definition.

 

[from scratch]

To isolate the word here obfuscates its meaning. We have some options here, but they are limited since we know that whatever "perfect" means in this case, it is "perfect" as God is "perfect". Now we can either elevate the semantics of the word to the level of that which describes an aspect of God, or we can bring God down to our level to fit within our chosen definition.

Tell you what though. It sure causes a problem in most people's theology.

 

[Sieben]

im
perfeccctyyy
holyyy
saintlyyy
lovelyyy

 

[heymikey80]

it meant strict pedagogue, if you need a disciplinarian..dude, by all means that is your freedom to live that way.


3;24Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith.

Oh, so now you don't need discipleship, dude?

I'm impressed. Or maybe not!

Once again -- if my mentor puts me under someone who teaches me to discipline my heart, mind, soul, and strength, one would expect from that discipline a direction that the mentor wants me to go in. Normally a mentor doesn't appoint a despoiler.

 

[Frogster]

Oh, so now you don't need discipleship, dude?

I'm impressed. Or maybe not!

 

[Frogster]

im
perfeccctyyy
holyyy
saintlyyy
lovelyyy

 

[fhansen]

So when Romans 6 says we were raised up with Christ, out of the fallen nature, that is a 40 year long raising process? That is some sloooow resurrection bro.

6;4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Yes, we can now walk in newness of life; man is reconciled with God, the grace is available, and, like the servants in the Parable of the Talents, we must invest it wisely or else risk the fate of the wicked servant. God doesn’t want us to turn off our brains; grace is not a get out of jail free card. Yes, the righteous died for the unrighteous; He pulls us from the pit, but we can still stumble back in if we’re not vigilant. The good news is that God is love and He wills that none should perish. But He won’t force anyone to be saved. He won’t force anyone to love Him. And lack of love for God is mans’ ultimate injustice. Now, with the time and gifts given us, we must grow in that love as we learn to choose it-to choose Him-until we’re totally sold out, loving with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. What better could He want for us than to embrace the Ultimate Good? This is what makes man just-this is our justification. And this is His righteousness, that He made us for.


This life is a place where we have the time to work out our salvation-that's what this world is all about, in fact. Otherwise God may as well have forgiven Adam & Eve from the get-go, or simply prevented them from sinning to begin with. It's mans' will He wants aligned with His. In that way justice and order are restored to the universe.

 

[Thekla]

Do a word study on the word used there.

Don't forget tenses in the passage ...

(it's perfect thus good as in complete; not the same good as kalos, which is said of creation/Genesis)

 

[11822]

Frogster has no problem. I did not say enemy, I said understood the cross, when people promote law, as a means of holiness, they don't understand the cross, that is a fact. Again, don't kill anyone today, don't steal, but you never address the "how" of the issue, u just kinda fixate on the do's and don'ts, in a mere elemental fashion, that's ok...no big deal, just offering my in depth analysis.

Are the apostles promoting Law when they tell us not to steal? No they are not

 

[11822]

I'm sorry that you think the way you do. Perhaps you will grow because of this input to your life. You must be getting something from this or you wouldn't be hanging around. I'm kinda interested in what you're getting from your participation.

 

[11822]

I think the point is that a balance must exist. Man can't be saved without God-this is absolutely impossible- but God elects to have man participate in his salvation, so that he's not merely a dumb outsider to it all, so that our choices-our wills-are involved. God doesn't save us without us, as it's been said before. Man freely fell, and man must freely rise again, with Gods help, with the grace won at Calvary. There are just too many verses in scripture admonishing us, often with dire consequences if we don't, to persist, persevere, do the right thing, be holy, be perfect, abide in the Spirit, invest our talents, keep oil in our lamps, work out our salvation, put to death the misdeeds of the flesh, perform acts of love for ones neighbors, and to love each other in general to ignore the fact that God considers our salvation a combined effort.

Well said

 

[Nanopants]

Tell you what though. It sure causes a problem in most people's theology.

I can understand that, but it fits perfectly well within the themes found in the Gospels and the works of the Apostles, and that is the inadequacy of following rules, because it is the righteousness of God himself that is the mark.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Sieben]

Is anyone holy here?

 

[JRSut1000]

Yes, I'm set-apart by Y'shua.

 

[Frogster]

progressive sanctification is just people under law, always seeing the flesh because of law, rom 3;20, so now the accusations seem true, because yes, the flesh stinks, so the person is now concvinced he is not holy, beacuse the flesh is not holy, so because he thinks he is the flesh now, from law, he tries to fix it his whole life.

Old Temple life.

 

[11822]

Well it rests on the fact that God already made the saint holy . a saint is holy . once you start making requirements for being holy . you start making requirements for being a saint .

The Bible gives requirements of holiness, Its God who gives it, not man.

 

[Frogster]

Yes, we can now walk in newness of life; man is reconciled with God, the grace is available, and, like the servants in the Parable of the Talents, we must invest it wisely or else risk the fate of the wicked servant. God doesn’t want us to turn off our brains; grace is not a get out of jail free card. Yes, the righteous died for the unrighteous; He pulls us from the pit, but we can still stumble back in if we’re not vigilant. The good news is that God is love and He wills that none should perish. But He won’t force anyone to be saved. He won’t force anyone to love Him. And lack of love for God is mans’ ultimate injustice. Now, with the time and gifts given us, we must grow in that love as we learn to choose it-to choose Him-until we’re totally sold out, loving with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. What better could He want for us than to embrace the Ultimate Good? This is what makes man just-this is our justification. And this is His righteousness, that He made us for.


This life is a place where we have the time to work out our salvation-that's what this world is all about, in fact. Otherwise God may as well have forgiven Adam & Eve from the get-go, or simply prevented them from sinning to begin with. It's mans' will He wants aligned with His. In that way justice and order are restored to the universe.

I understand, but what I meant is once we're raised out of the old creation, in a nano second, we were put in Christ. Did he put us into a creation that needed fixing? No, when we were in Adam we were dead, and beyond repair, so what should we think of the second Adam, and his creation?

 

[Nanopants]

Is anyone holy here?

If God is in you and you are in God, then yes you also are holy. But it has nothing to do with you personally, it's God that is holy.