History of Icons

I think is is admirable to love your brothers and sisters in Christ, and feel so attached to them, that like dearly departed loved ones you kiss their pictures/representations. Is this sort of love and closeness shared with living saints within the congregation? And, how do you on daily basis intercede for one another in your congregations and everyone's individual needs in prayer?

prodromos said:

If the Devil is the cause of an illness, he can appear to heal by ceasing to afflict, or he can cause symptoms to appear to stop by blocking pain for example, but I do not believe the Devil is capable of actually healing.

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Bingo. It is actually blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to attribute healing to Satan (though I have read second century fathers that speculate that demons know when people are going to heal naturally and deceive man into thinking that idols are the cause of their healing.) However, if this healing is really taking place, is there a video? Does it work on everyone or only the faithful/suggestible?

I just find it strange to use miracles as a means to bolster one's argument but not submit material evidence that the miracles are just tall tales.

abacabb3 said:

I think is is admirable to love your brothers and sisters in Christ, and feel so attached to them, that like dearly departed loved ones you kiss their pictures/representations. Is this sort of love and closeness shared with living saints within the congregation? And, how do you on daily basis intercede for one another in your congregations and everyone's individual needs in prayer?

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These are very good question and the answers are that "it depends" upon the spiritual health of the local congregation, which in Orthodoxy we call a "parish". Some parishes are more spiritually healthy than others. The ones that are healthy consist of leaders and parishioners who are truly repenting toward God of their own sinful passions and Truly believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as a result. In such parishes Love and unity in the Holy Spirit can abound. A part of this good spiritual health is that at least a few members are disciplined in their private prayers, in which they not only pray for forgiveness and mercy for themselves, but also pray daily (even twice a day) for their fellow parishioners, especially the ones that have offended them in any way. Forgiveness is at the heart of our spiritual Life. Praying for those who oppress and offend us, asking God to help us to forgive our enemies from our heart, and asking God to help us see our own sins and not to judge our brothers is the beginning of receiving of God's grace, which is the Power of God working in our hearts and enabling us to forgive and to Love others as we Love ourselves. Christ Himself is abundantly present in such congregations and God mystically calls whom He chooses by the Power of the Holy Spirit to join Him and His brothers and sisters there.

There are parishes, on the other hand, that have become spiritually sick due to lack of true repentance on the part of its leaders and most of their members. Such parishes don't bear much, if any, good fruit. God does not call His elect to be fed from barren trees.

Is there the same physical devotion as there is with icons?

abacabb3 said:

Bingo. It is actually blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to attribute healing to Satan (though I have read second century fathers that speculate that demons know when people are going to heal naturally and deceive man into thinking that idols are the cause of their healing.) However, if this healing is really taking place, is there a video? Does it work on everyone or only the faithful/suggestible?

I just find it strange to use miracles as a means to bolster one's argument but not submit material evidence that the miracles are just tall tales.

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I don't think the miracles are being used to bolster arguments. We only mention them because we are being called upon to "give an answer to every man that asketh [of us] a reason of the hope that is in [us] with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:14) The "miracle" of the Resurrection of Christ is the heart of the preaching of the Apostles. Could they submit any evidence for Christ's Resurrection other than by the great signs and wonders they were able to perform by the Holy Spirit? Did everyone believe the signs and wonders performed by Christ's disciples when others reported them? Did the scribes and Pharisees believe in Christ because it was reported that He was casting out demons and healing people's diseases by the Holy Spirit? No. Rather, they stated that "if" Jesus was casting out demons it was by the prince of demons.

If you really need to see evidence. It's possible that this can be arranged for you. But...

Our Faith is not based upon miracles, but upon our own personal Communion with God in the Holy Spirit. However, the miracles that God reveals to us have and do indeed help us fight against the temptation of "unbelief" which is so incredibly rampant and powerful in these end days. We think that this is the reason that God has been showing us many such signs and wonders as of late. His great mercy toward us abounds in these miraculous gifts, even in our unprecedented faithlessness and perversity.

Glory to God! Glory to God! Glory to God!

For all these things, Glory to God!

abacabb3 said:

Is there the same physical devotion as there is with icons?

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It depends upon the congregation. Yes, sometimes there is. Most of the time the physical devotion is in the form of serving our brothers and sister through our work and ministry in the Church. This can be extremely demanding and exacting work that is done for the glory of God, in thanks for all He does for us, and out of Love for others. Love is not a feeling -- Love is a verb.

abacabb3 said:

I think is is admirable to love your brothers and sisters in Christ, and feel so attached to them, that like dearly departed loved ones you kiss their pictures/representations. Is this sort of love and closeness shared with living saints within the congregation? And, how do you on daily basis intercede for one another in your congregations and everyone's individual needs in prayer?

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In many ways, it was the love between the members of the parish (living) that helped me to understand how we relate to icons, when I was first coming into Orthodoxy. Because I did struggle a bit with icons, and wanted to be sure I was understanding properly, and received God's guidance in the matter. I will just say that after a great deal of prayer, I understood that yes, they bring to mind in the same way that photos of our loved ones who have reposed will do. And to love our brothers and sisters in Christ is in no way offensive to God - in fact we are commanded to do so! If we love our natural family, how much more ought we to love those who are of the household of faith?

And I'm sure it varies by parish, but yes, in ours, everyone IS family (kind of "adopted" in a sense through Church relationships, having baptized one another's children, standing at other's weddings, and so on - they become actual recognized Church family in this way, and they do take it seriously - but even outside of those relationships, people are welcomed and brought in like "family"). We are all concerned for the things that affect one another. There are frequently offers of practical help when needed, comfort, prayers for each other, and all else that goes with that. To be honest, I pretty much lost all my friends when I came into the Church, and I don't have family nearby except my daughter (and she's very busy) ... but I have a pretty full life due to my Church family.

And yes, we have discipline for prayer, and pray regularly for each other - generally at least twice a day.

abacabb3 said:

Is there the same physical devotion as there is with icons?

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This varies with culture, I am sure. I belong to a Greek parish, and they are very demonstrative. Many people greet with kisses, one on each cheek - most of the women will greet me this way, and a few of the men I know well. With strangers, even, there is generally a clasping of hands that is more than a handshake, and a slight bow. For those one wants to especially honor, they may kiss their hands.

It was in fact this custom that really made me understand much of what we do, especially involving icons. It is apparently traditionally customary for grandchildren to greet their grandparents by kissing their hand, to show a deep honor and respect to them. I met a very dear, sweet lady who later baptized me (she became then my Nouna - my "mother" in a way - sadly she has reposed) ... anyway, she was an elderly lady, and so loving. She used to greet me and kiss my hand. The whole parish made note that she would do that, and I didn't realize what an impact it had on them. It isn't that commonly done. Ah - I think I'm going to fail at explaining here. She honored me greatly - and I kissed her hand as well, as would be more fitting. It is something I will do on very rare times to one or two other women as well, whom I VERY deeply respect in Christ, and to show them honor. No, I think I'm going to fail at what I wanted to convey. If all this seems like just rambling, I do apologize. But it just made me UNDERSTAND so clearly ... Forgive me that I can't explain.

But yes, culture is going to have an impact there. What I have described is traditional Greek interacting, and they understand the kisses to the cheek, kissing the hand, and the rest to have a particular meaning. Some others may not have the same customs, and I have seen parishes made up of American converts to behave like Americans typically do when meeting or greeting one another - handshakes with strangers, hugs with those one is close to in Church.

truefiction1 said:

It depends upon the congregation. Yes, sometimes there is. Most of the time the physical devotion is in the form of serving our brothers and sister through our work and ministry in the Church. This can be extremely demanding and exacting work that is done for the glory of God, in thanks for all He does for us, and out of Love for others. Love is not a feeling -- Love is a verb.

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If people kiss icons of people they never met personally, do those same people kiss those who they worship with?

abacabb3 said:

If people kiss icons of people they never met personally, do those same people kiss those who they worship with?

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In our parish they do.

"Greet one another with a holy kiss"

There is even a point in the liturgy for exchanging "the kiss of peace" though it is a greeting, and varies by parish.

~Anastasia~ said:

And I'm sure it varies by parish, but yes, in ours, everyone IS family (kind of "adopted" in a sense through Church relationships, having baptized one another's children, standing at other's weddings, and so on - they become actual recognized Church family in this way, and they do take it seriously - but even outside of those relationships, people are welcomed and brought in like "family"). We are all concerned for the things that affect one another. There are frequently offers of practical help when needed, comfort, prayers for each other, and all else that goes with that. To be honest, I pretty much lost all my friends when I came into the Church, and I don't have family nearby except my daughter (and she's very busy) ... but I have a pretty full life due to my Church family.

And yes, we have discipline for prayer, and pray regularly for each other - generally at least twice a day.

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How do you realistically find a congregation like this?

abacabb3 said:

How do you realistically find a congregation like this?

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I wish I could answer that one for you. I don't know if anyone outside of Orthodox parishes do so.

I find that HUGE parishes are less cohesive, at least from the perspective of only visiting a couple of months.

If I were looking to find something like what I describe, I would look for an Orthodox parish, and look for one that is small to medium in size. There are going to be other factors too ... hopefully there wouldn't be an ethnic barrier. In my case, it was a benefit, but people don't always find it so. I don't know enough parishes to be able to give more than those very general comments. And even if I did, I think the INDIVIDUAL parish is more important than any generalizations ... better to go there and see than take anything I might say?

I pray you may find what you are looking for.

abacabb3 said:

If people kiss icons of people they never met personally, do those same people kiss those who they worship with?

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Yes, usually three times.

abacabb3 said:

However, if this healing is really taking place, is there a video? Does it work on everyone or only the faithful/suggestible?

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I am sure there are (I know there are photos), but even if not, these things happen all over the place in public areas. if you are ever in PA, go to the Carpatho Church in Taylor on a Wednesday I think around 6 pm. there is an icon there that has numerous healings, is in plain view, non-Orthodox always attend, etc. if you are in Greenlawn, NY on Long Island, check out St Paraskevi Church (where I was married). tis the same thing only a grotto with water rather than an icon.

abacabb3 said:

Does it work on everyone or only the faithful/suggestible?

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whoever God wills it to work on. the aforementioned Taylor icon converted a Muslim man who was there to spit on the icon. he had a heart defect that was healed and he converted from Islam to the Church. definitely not only the faithful are healed.

abacabb3 said:

I just find it strange to use miracles as a means to bolster one's argument but not submit material evidence that the miracles are just tall tales.

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that's why when miracles occur in the Orthodox Church, the last thing we do is blindly accept them. the Church teaches to use discernment and skepticism when something happens.

~Anastasia~ said:

If I were looking to find something like what I describe, I would look for an Orthodox parish, and look for one that is small to medium in size. There are going to be other factors too ... hopefully there wouldn't be an ethnic barrier.

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How do ethnic barriers work? The whole "Weakness" of orthodoxy is that it is broken along ethnic lines. If we are one in Christ, why can't I join an Indian/Greek/Russian congregation? In the real-world, is it just too hard to integrate?

I pray you may find what you are looking for.

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Please pray that I find, and look for, what glorifies God. Thank you for your concern.

abacabb3 said:

The whole "Weakness" of orthodoxy is that it is broken along ethnic lines.

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that's only a Western phenomenon due to the immigration. Orthodoxy is one no matter where it is

ArmyMatt said:

that's only a Western phenomenon due to the immigration. Orthodoxy is one no matter where it is

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If Christ overcame the world so should His Church.

abacabb3 said:

If Christ overcame the world so should His Church.

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His Body is not divided, a Russian priest can commune at an Antiochian parish when a Serbian Bishop is visiting. we are not divided at all.

ArmyMatt said:

His Body is not divided, a Russian priest can commune at an Antiochian parish when a Serbian Bishop is visiting. we are not divided at all.

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But won't people look at you weird?

abacabb3 said:

How do ethnic barriers work? The whole "Weakness" of orthodoxy is that it is broken along ethnic lines. If we are one in Christ, why can't I join an Indian/Greek/Russian congregation? In the real-world, is it just too hard to integrate?

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Things happened differently in the US than elsewhere. Except for missionaries to Alaska to bring Christ to the natives, more of the Orthodox in America immigrated themselves from many different countries, and brought their faith with them. If you have a community of Greeks all living together, who have always worshipped in Greek, and all speak Greek, it shouldn't be surprising that they should want and need to continue in that way. Changes are coming, but it is a bit slow. A general strength of Orthodoxy is its resistance to change, so it's difficult for me to criticize there.

Things would look differently today if there had been those in a position to widely evangelize the United States. When Orthodoxy comes in a missionary fashion to a new area, every effort is made to translate everything into the language of the people there, and make everything understandable in terms of their own customs. The US is quite unique in how she came to be, which means some differences in how the Church developed here, compared to every other time and place in history. We ought to have some patience.

The barriers are not a given - not at all. I have traveled and visited other parishes, and always been welcomed, even when the (sometimes perceived) differences involved those ethnicities least connected to and friendly to one another. It might involve an awkward few moments, but in the end, I was made welcome, and usually fed, LOL. Babas, YiaYias, and Grannies are the same, wherever you go.

Please pray that I find, and look for, what glorifies God. Thank you for your concern.

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That's a wee bit closer to what I actually prayed. I prayed that God would lead you and help you find what was best for you. That will glorify Him. I always pray that way, rather than that God will simply give what a person is looking for themselves.

abacabb3 said:

But won't people look at you weird?

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Not so much. People assumed I was Russian when I travel, but the Greeks still welcomed me. Then when I went to a parish with Russians, they would ask and learn that I go to a Greek parish. And I am neither ethnically. So I am always an outsider in 2 out of 3 ways to them, yet they still welcome me.

And some places what Matt described is done regularly, and purposely.

We are in full communion with each other. Events sometimes mix jurisdictions, or send a teacher or priest from one to minister to another. It's not strange at all.