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History of Icons

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by JM, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    not necessarily, the images of plants, animals, and angels God commanded be used in the Tabernacle and Temple did not become idols to the Holy men and women of the OT.

    saying that they will become idols (which is not the same as that they can), is some eisegesis.
     
  2. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Did you mean that if YOU used them in a religious sense, they would become idols to YOU?

    Perhaps it is a matter of extrapolating one's own tendencies onto someone else?

    Not accusing, just seeking to understand.
     
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  4. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    I was asked direct questions so I will answer. My only request is that I am not reported AGAIN by the EO members who feel offended by this discussion or that I've invaded their safe space.

    Augustine said it...so did the Council of Constantinople. Scripture repeats this warning over and over again.

    Sin is universal. The tendency to sin is universal. "I find then a law that when I would do good evil is present with me..." Romans 7.21

    Eisegesis is when you read a meaning into a text based on a presupposition. Since the scripture do not mention any images being used in worship during the time of Christ it is pure eisegesis.

    We have gone back and forth on this Matt. The direct commandment of God is obligatorily, it's binding. There is no such commandment anywhere in scripture that demand we make a representation of Christ and His mother. Emperor Leo convened the Council of Constantinople where it was decided that images were to be taken down from the churches and destroyed - Irene convened the Council of Nice and it was decided that images were to be restored.

    Which of these two councils are lawful and represent the will of God? Which Council reflects the scriptures and the early church? Is it the one with the power of the State to enforce it?

    Hummm....

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Thank you for the reply.

    No reports here.

    I don't really see that as an answer, but it's ok. I'm not sure what you're referring to since you don't quote it, but since I don't see it in Scripture either ... ?

    I'm not wanting to argue. I just wondered if you'd had some negative experiences. I've had icons for a few years now. They haven't become idols ...

    But I mainly wanted to know if you had had some bad experience or problem, with the way you worded it at one point.

    I think icons CAN BECOME idols, with the wrong mindset. Really, most anything can, but of course anything with a religious connotation even more so.

    God directed the bronze serpent to be made, at one point. Yet the people responded wrongly at a point, it became an idol, and then it was a problem. So a careful person should be aware of that danger and possible tendency.

    But it is not a widespread given. God does not tempt man to sin, and He would never have ordered the bronze serpent to be made, if that were true.

    Thanks again for the reply. No hostility intended at all. I really just wanted to understand you. :)

    God be with you. :)
     
  6. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I think you missed my question, so I'll ask again:

    Do you consider using the fragrant oil that miraculously streams from this particular icon that I use for my avatar (the miraculous myrrh streaming icon of Iveron) for the purpose of anointing believers for potential healing of diseases to be "using the icon in a religious sense"? When a person who is anointed with the oil from the icon is healed of a serious, incurable disease, is it considered religious use if we give glory to God on account of it? Or is this idolatry?

    I won't report you no matter what you reply, because I usually say whatever needs to be said regardless of forum rules. But I will say that the council that is the authoritative one is the one that God has approved by the Power of His Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  7. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    If it is not commanded in revelation it is idolatry.

    Have I had bad experiences with Icons? Nope. I still have them on my walls. Nothing wrong with having images as artwork but since they are not commanded to be used in scripture we should not be using them during worship - at the very least, they should not be imposed upon Christians as needful. We are free from culture captivity when we worship God the way He has commanded us to.

    - God alone is to determine how the sinner approaches God in worship
    - extra biblical practices usually tend to nullify true biblical worship
    - we call into question the sufficiency of God's revelation/scripture when we add or make additions to the biblical norm
    - the Bible explicity condemns all worship that is not commanded (Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23)
    - how God is to be worship is explained here Deut. 12.29-32

    John Owen, " Three things are usually pleaded in the justification of the observance of such rites and ceremonies in the worship of God: First, that they tend unto the furtherance of the devotion of the worshipers; secondly, that they render the worship itself comely and beautiful; thirdly, that they are the preservers of order in the celebration thereof. And therefore on these accounts they may be instituted or appointed by some, and observed by all."

    A closer look at Deut. 12;

    v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
    v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name in …the Tabernacle
    v. 4. “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, your own way
    v.8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
    v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
    v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture (Icons were cultural in the Eastern Empire and used by Greek Pagans)
    v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
    v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  8. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    How does this directly answer what I have specifically asked you? It doesn't.

    I want you to tell me if using the fragrant oil (myrrh) that miraculously streams forth from this particular icon (which is regularly venerated by the faithful) to anoint the sick, and glorifying God when a person who was afflicted with an incurable, terminal illness is suddenly healed of it inexplicably, is idolatry?

    If you will, please acknowledge the existence of the myrrh that streams from this icon, and address the inexplicable (miraculous) healings that have occurred when the sick were anointed with it. And please explain why it is improper (idolatrous) to give glory and thanksgiving to God for the gift of such an icon. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  9. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Well ... God did order certain images used in worship when He gave directions for things like the Temple, the furnishings, the vestments.

    But icons were not specifically mentioned there (though there were carved angels, which we in the Orthodox Church would even tend not to do).

    The thing that gets me though, is that from archeological evidence, Jewish places of worship were found to be covered with scenes from the Old Testament and so on, very similar to the way some Orthodox Churches are. So why did Christ have nothing to say about it specifically?

    I'm not really invested in arguing anyone around to my understanding. I don't have to be justified before man, and I've been over it with God.

    And as for someone else, I don't expect it to happen anyway, but if someone who thought it IS idolatry started using icons because of what I said, then I've basically convinced someone to violate their conscience, which would be sin, even though icons are not. So I have no desire to do that either.

    I think a person misses SOMEthing from the communion of the Saints without icons - not that they are necessary, but that they aid - so that is the only potential benefit for having such a discussion, IMO. Well, that and just understanding one another, which is often my only goal. :)
     
  10. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    seeing as how God commanded there to be images in the Tabernacle and Temple, and the earliest synagogues and catacomb Churches have images, and we still have two of the icons by St Luke, I would say that Nicaea II actually follows the will of God. in addition to icons existing long before the Islamic influence on the iconoclasts. so why is the commandment telling the Jews to put up images NOT binding? and what evidence is there to back up that is not binding?

    also the clear distinction between doula (reverence) and latria (worship and adoration due God alone) that the Church has always had makes it pretty clear.

    in our monastery museum, we have a catacomb Church Lampada, long before iconoclasm, which has images on it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and, you have not addressed your point as to how icons WILL become idols, which was bad eisegesis. plus, all you have done is dismissed all evidence to support the use of icons, and have only looked at the false council as evidence, which was never accepted by the whole Church, which is bad history.
     
  12. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Under the old covenant, yes. Nothing under the new and nothing in the old commanded worship of the images as vehicles to the divine.

    I have to ask for proof that Jews used synagogues during the time of the Temple to offer worship and that worship included images not commanded in scripture.

    Highly doubtful. I'd like to see some research proving the antiquity of the icons in question.

    Thank you,

    jm
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Used in a religious sense... Do you consider using the fragrant oil that miraculously streams from this particular icon (the miraculous myrrh streaming icon of Iveron) for the purpose of anointing believers for potential healing of diseases to be "using the icon in a religious sense"? When a person who is anointed with the oil from the icon is healed of a serious, incurable disease, is it considered religious use if we give glory to God on account of it? Or is this idolatry?
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    we don't worship them any more than ancient Israel did. and there is no forbidding of images anywhere in the NT. so since Christ had images when He worshiped in the Temple, and there is nothing that points to any change, there are permissible images.

    and you are wrong. God commanded images in the Tabernacle.

    the point is that they had images in the synagogues. when I said worship I meant the Temple, which also had images. either way, when they went to the synagogues and the Temples, they had images. recent 1st and 2nd Century synagogues that have been unearthed are covered in them.

    it's only highly doubtful because you need it to be. here at seminary we have a catacomb Church lamp from when the pagans were persecuting Christians, and it has imagery on it. if you want to do research, be my guest. I would be willing to bet that any link I would post you would call into question, since you are setting your own understanding as the standard for iconography.

    the problem for you is that there is NOTHING to your point, aside from taking one verse in Exodus out of context, and then dismissing any evidence to the contrary, to include other verses from Exodus.

    what you are basically saying is God commands OT images, Christ is surrounded by images when He worships, He says nothing is wrong with said images, yet somehow images are wrong.

    that is some more eisegesis
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  15. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Four times I have asked the same question: #140, #146, #148, #153, and have received only one response so far, and that response did not even acknowledge the question that was asked. It's as if an evil spirit, or something (like being put on the ignore list), is preventing comprehension of things alluded to and asked about.

    Looks like something is really broken. So, I'll try asking again:

    I want you to tell me, @JM, if using the fragrant oil (myrrh) that miraculously streams forth from this particular icon (which is regularly venerated by the faithful) to anoint the sick, and glorifying God when a person who was afflicted with an incurable, terminal illness is suddenly healed of it inexplicably, is idolatry?

    If you will, please acknowledge the existence of the myrrh that streams from this icon, and address the inexplicable (miraculous) healing(s) that have occurred when the sick were anointed with it. And please explain why it is improper (idolatrous) to give glory and thanksgiving to God for the gift of such an icon.

    I understand if you are bothered by the question, or otherwise bothered over what your answer might be, or if you are just too darned busy with life's daily responsibilities at present to do the CF thing, and will respect your silence. I won't ask it again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  16. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Answered more than once with scripture, reason and logic. YES! You are an idolater! You worship God according to your own imagination.

    Happy? I hope so. lol

    I have already answered, given reasons why and the logic behind it...from sacred and profane history.

    JayEhm
     
  17. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Another example of Church – State relations gone awry in addition to my post on Icons being forced upon the church.

    I’m reading a bio of Rasputin by Douglas Smith and he repeats the story of how Seraphim of Sarov was canonized. According to Douglas, and I have heard this story before from another source, the Orthodox Church examined life and teachings of Seraphim but refused to canonize him. The Tzar received a prophecy from a French occultist named Monsieur Phillippe who stated that if he prayed to St. Seraphim of Sarov he would have the heir he so desperately desired, the problem was, the Church rejected Seraphim’s canonization.

    How was the problem solved?

    According to Douglas:

    “…Nicholas, to the anger of the Holy Synod, the church’s governing body, overrode the decision (“The Emperor can do anything,” an angry Alexandra insisted) and ordered that Serephim be canonized.” p.46

    And that folks is how Seraphim of Sarov became recognized as a Saint.
     
  18. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    @truefiction1

    If it is not commanded in revelation it is idolatry.

    Have I had bad experiences with Icons? Nope. I still have them on my walls. Nothing wrong with having images as artwork but since they are not commanded to be used in scripture we should not be using them during worship - at the very least, they should not be imposed upon Christians as needful. We are free from culture captivity when we worship God the way He has commanded us to.

    - God alone is to determine how the sinner approaches God in worship
    - extra biblical practices usually tend to nullify true biblical worship
    - we call into question the sufficiency of God's revelation/scripture when we add or make additions to the biblical norm
    - the Bible explicity condemns all worship that is not commanded (Lev. 10.1-3; Deut. 4.2, 12.29-32, 17.3; Josh. 1.7, 23.6-8; Matt. 15.13; Col. 2.20-23)
    - how God is to be worship is explained here Deut. 12.29-32

    John Owen, " Three things are usually pleaded in the justification of the observance of such rites and ceremonies in the worship of God: First, that they tend unto the furtherance of the devotion of the worshipers; secondly, that they render the worship itself comely and beautiful; thirdly, that they are the preservers of order in the celebration thereof. And therefore on these accounts they may be instituted or appointed by some, and observed by all."

    A closer look at Deut. 12;

    v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
    v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name in …the Tabernacle
    v. 4. “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, your own way
    v.8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
    v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
    v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture (Icons were cultural in the Eastern Empire and used by Greek Pagans)
    v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
    v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    @JM, you are completely eluding the question at the heart of the very matter: WHERE, or WHO is the miraculous myrrh that streams from this icon coming from?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    you mean half Scripture, and then reason and logic based on half of what is there.

    nice, and what actual Russian sources from that time do you have? because folks say that the Titanic was bombed. unless you actually have stuff from Russia at the time, it's simply your own hyperbole and more eisegesis.

    that is not the definition of idolatry. so since what you just wrote here is not actually said in Scripture anywhere, that makes this claim of yours which you have said, an idol. Trinity is not found in Scripture anywhere, so since that is not commanded in revelation as you are narrowly and very personally defining it, that must be idolatry too.

    funny, because He commanded the Jews to put images up in the place He commanded them to worship Him.

    true

    while true, but you presuppose that you worship in truth, because you presuppose you read Scripture in truth, which others must accept prior to any claim you have that follows.

    yes, but you have yet to show that you are rightly defining the Biblical norm, aside to say that you are.

    you assume that what we are doing is not what God has commanded. you are forgetting that St Paul commands us to maintain the oral tradition. just because it was not clearly written in Scripture, that does not mean it was not commanded by God. even though images in His place of worship IS commanded by God.

    you assume you have not added to or taken away from what God commanded us. you also assume that only what is clearly in Scripture as you read it is the standard, which is also not written in Scripture.

    your line of argumentation is the same that Richard Dawkins uses to try to discredit Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
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