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History of Icons

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by JM, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    it seems the source doesn't understand what the word Catholic actually means either.
     
  2. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    @~Anastasia~ @ArmyMatt

    I appreciate your kindness and patience.

    Just a summary before I unsubscribe from the thread and disappear from this forum.
    1. Scripture does not give us a command to make any image or likeness of God and His Saints.
    2. Scripture prohibits the making of images of God and His Saints for use in worship.
    3. We can trace the use of images being used for personal devotion and veneration to the laity, which was at first rejected by the Orthodox Church, until the head of State placed into power a person who would allow their use. (see op)
    That’s pretty much it folks.

    Yours in the Lord,

    jm
     
  3. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    If the veneration of Icons is idolatry, then all the Orthodox Saints are idolaters? All of them 'made use' of Icons in their devotions and yet they displayed such holiness of life and the gifts of the Holy Spirit... how does one reconcile the two?
     
  4. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It's hardly discussion to post then disappear, so I hope I won't seem churlish by replying.

    But we've been over this.

    Scripture does specifically record God ordering images to be made and used in worship in the Old Testament tabernacle and temple, beginning right after the command not to make idols for oneself and serve them. So ... the obvious implication is that the ban on idols was not in fact a command to make no images whatsoever. There's no way to get around that. And you can't even say images are ok but not when connected to worship, because that's exactly where God wanted them placed.



    As to the third point I can't reply without knowing what is meant, but I rather doubt that was the first use of them, having read scattered comments among the Church Fathers.


    And there are images within ancient Jewish synagogues as well as within ancient buildings used as Churches that I suspect predate your statement regarding their first use.
     
  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Scripture does command images in the Temple and Tabernacle, and we have found them in 1st century synagogues. and your history is absolutely incorrect, icons were used far before iconoclasm.
     
  6. JeremiahsBulldog

    JeremiahsBulldog Careful, he bites!

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    True enough.
    But as I mentioned in my reply, the passage can have multiple meanings. If I may rephrase Christ's complete response, to make the meanings clearer, it would go something like this:

    "Give ALL profane things unto Caesar, and ALL sacred things unto God; but let me place special emphasis on profane IMAGES versus sacred IMAGES (ICONS)."
     
  7. JeremiahsBulldog

    JeremiahsBulldog Careful, he bites!

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    To our dear departed friend, JM; in case he's watching from above. (I assume he lives at a higher elevation, as befits his "lofty" theology.)

    I have these pieces of advice:

    1- Dump the traditions of men (Col 2:8)-- specifically, John Calvin. He, like all the reformers, was reacting to the distortions of tradition of the Roman church. But, instead of joining the true apostolic tradition of the EOC, he claimed that all one needs is Scripture-- which contradicts Scripture itself (2 Th 2:15; 1 Cor 11:2). Then he even contradicted his own self by making a new tradition, for those who have itching ears (1 Ti 4:3-4). As for your other sources in the OP, we have all adequately proven that they, like Calvin, are igrorant of Church history as well as Scripture.

    2- Repent and join the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic-- and infallible-- Orthodox Church: The true vine (Jhn 15:1); the Body of Christ (Rom 12:5; 1 Cor 12:12); the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Ti 3:15), the channel through which God gave us the Scriptures (in that all Scripture writers-- inspired by the Holy Spirit-- were members of the Old Testament- or New Testament Church; and the same Church, by the same Holy Spirit, ratified the canon of Scripture).

    Here you will aquire the true Tradition (2 Th 3:6).

    You will be justified by grace through faith, in holy Baptism (Acts 8:36-39; Rom 5:9- 6:4); enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:15-17); and you will receive God's nature (2 Pe 1:4) through His uncreated glory/grace/will/activity/energy, by literally eating His flesh and drinking His blood (Jn 6:54-56; 1 Cor 10:16-17).

    Then you will be able to interpret Scripture correctly. Rather, it will be God Who gives the proper interpretation, through the Church, to you (2 Pe 1:20; 2 Pe 3:16-18; Lu 24:27, 32; Acts 17:2; Acts 8:27-35). Then, in the Church through which God gave us the Scriptures, you will not only expound Scripture correctly-- you will become Scripture (2 Cor 3:2-3).

    (BTW. When St. Paul talked about those who baptize for the dead (1 Cor 15:29), he was refering to Gnostic heretics, according to the fathers. And, no, he did not approve.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  8. JeremiahsBulldog

    JeremiahsBulldog Careful, he bites!

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    Here is an excellent article countering Protestant misconceptions of the Church's history of icons.

    Pt 1, Pt 2, Pt 3, Pt 4, Pt 5.
     
  9. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    I like icons and religious art very much. It's just the "Bowing To" and "Kissing" of the icons that bothers me.
     
  10. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    so I must ask, how is that any different than holding your hand over your heart when the national anthem is played, or kissing the photo of a loved one?
     
  11. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    I don't kiss pictures of loved ones.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  12. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith I'm Currently An Eastern Orthodox Catechumen Supporter

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    I just want to let you guys know that I mean No Disrespect Whatsoever and I love You All.

    I love The Hymns, The Divine Liturgy Etc. It's just for some reason it bothers me to see people kissing the icons and bowing to them.
     
  13. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    you might not, but do you object to those who do? if a husband dies early and his widow kisses a picture of him, would you find that wrong?
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no worries, none taken at least by me anyways. and it's an important question.
     
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  15. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It seems that Western culture differs markedly from Eastern in displays of respect and affection. In many Eastern cultures it is customary to kiss the hand of your host when attending a function, and people greet each other with a kiss on each cheek, male or female.
     
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  16. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Iconoclasm is a lie, the roots of which is sinful passion, by means of which demons are permitted by a person to implant the lie into the minds of sinners. That is why the holy ones aren't afflicted with it. The spirit/matter dualism that was the affliction of the early gnostic heretics was because of sin, and is antichrist. Likewise, the spirit/matter dualism that is the affliction of all past and present day iconoclasts is because of sin, and is antichrist.
     
  17. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    All true iconoclasts are living (acutally, dying) within the evil spiritual tradition of those Biblical Pharisees who were being reproved by Jesus. They felt and thought themselves to be righteous through knowing God's law and claimed to be adhering to it. Christ came healing on the Sabbath in the temple and they denounced Him for breaking God's Law, given in Scripture. They considered themselves the true servants of God because in their darkened and pride filled minds they were obeying God. Yet, they didn't even know God, Who they were nothing like.

    Likewise, the iconoclasts see themselves as the true servants of God because in their darkened and pride filled minds they are obeying God's prohibitions against idolatry (even though in reality, the use of any and all created matter for Communing with and glorifying the one True God is not and will never be idolatry). They, like the sinful Pharisees who are their kin, and the children of their father the devil, denounce the holy ones of God for breaking God's law, given in Scripture. Yet, they don't even know God, Who they are nothing like.

    There are those who are not sure about icons, because they have no experience with them and aren't sure. Then there are those who denounce icons in the surety of pride-filled minds, in continuation of the evil spirit of self-righteousness. We've nothing to say to such, except "repent".
     
  18. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    Iconoclasm also forgets all the saints early on who defended icons like St Athanasius the Great.
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Well, those people are not bowing to and kissing the icons. They are bowing to and kissing God, Who is being revealed through the images found in the icons, as through a window into the Divine Being and Heavenly Kingdom.
     
  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    yes, honoring a saint is honoring what God has done through that saint, because the saint clung to God. so even though we venerate objects, ultimately it goes to the source which is God Himself.
     
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