Hi/Bye

[JacksBratt]

He seems to be unfamiliar with the occasional need for 'tough love' ; particulary towards hypocrites, Jesus' diatribes were extraordinarily vehement - as were John the Baptist's.

Because he sees this as a kind of game for his amusement, in which he makes the rules and can generally feel superior, even magisterial, we should defer to this extraordinarily presumptuous attitude of his. No. Our faith is not a game for us, even to impress manifestly complacent atheists.

Am I alone in thinking that he seems to expect us to beg him to stay ?

This is an assumption on my part, however, I sometimes think there are different types of people.

1/ Found God and know Him by miraculous events in their life that reinforce their belief.
2/ Found God and continue to worship and believe even without obvious reinforcement of their belief but continue by faith and hope in Christ Jesus knowing Him by His word and having total faith, defending it until death, with no evidence other than their personal relationship with Him.
3/ Absolutely do not want to believe in a deity and will fight tooth and nail to keep this belief. This includes those that know that God exists and continue to try to convince themselves otherwise. Also, those that hate the idea of their being a deity that they must answer to.
4/ Have no ability to understand the concept of faith or the ability to have faith. Therefore they cannot believe in something unless the see it, taste it, touch it, smell it......Also includes those that just float along through life without the need or desire to search for a god or don't give a sniff whether there is one or not.
5/ Those searching for God, or say they are but expecting Him to show up and burn the alter, the water, all the bulls on the alter, the alters of the prophets of Baal and the prophets of Baal themselves, right in their house, or, they won't believe.

As Blade said.....
You need to go directly to Him and not search for Him in the words of other people on a cyber site.

Go to a dark quiet room, get on your knees or go prostrate on your face and tell God you need Him, you are searching for Him, you want Him to change you, you are a sinner and desperately want to be forgiven for the things you have done. You accept that Christ is real and died for your sins. Pour out your heart and desires to Him directly.

This is why the veal of the temple was torn from top to bottom. We need not go between, no priest to talk to God for us. We have a direct line.

If you want God in your life. Truly want to be changed and know Him. Then get serious and submit to Him. Leave nothing hidden, open yourself to Him and tell Him.

HE WILL SHOW UP.

 

[KWCrazy]

I'm coming here asking if there is a reason to stay.

The first question that comes to my mind is, why are you here in the first place? Understanding your motive for coming to a forum is an important part of deciding whether a forum is right for you. You present yourself as an atheist in a Christian forum. The two leading reasons an atheist come here are because they really want someone to show them the way to the Lord, or because they really want to show Christians how dumb they are for believing in God. This is based on several years of dealing with atheists and, yes, they are generalizations. So ask yourself, are you bringing discourse or hostility? What you present to others will determine how they view and respond to you. Come to me with a smile and I will smile back. Come to me with fists clenched and my guard is up.

I was born into a Christian home and indoctrinated into the faith my whole childhood.

Indoctrinated is not educated. It would have been better had you been educated into the faith. You can't backslide if you aren't a believer, and it doesn't sound like you were ever converted. In many (formerly most) families the parents raise their children to believe as they had been taught. but too often this consists of telling them to read their Bible, say their prayers and wear good clothes to meeting. While these things are good for appearance sake, none of them will of themselves bring a child to the Lord. That is a very personal process. I was saved when I was 12, but I had some pretty good evidence of the power of the Lord to change people and save souls.

This utterly obliterated my faith.

The Bible is a mystery to the unsaved because they lack the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. It's one thing to know what it says and quite another to know what it means. A good teacher will walk you through the Scriptures, showing you the deeper meaning in the verses which were originally written in another time for people in a vastly different culture. Much of the Bible is hard to believe for the skeptic because it starts with a world view they reject; "In the beginning, God..." We are taught in schools that we live in a world governed by natural laws and everything has a cause and effect relationship to everything else. The revelation is that; while the world may go on based on the physical laws that apply to it, there is a greater law that can supersede physical law as easily as a writer can add a plot twist to an otherwise predictable story. Lacking this understanding, the story of creation at the beginning of the Bible seems completely implausible because it is at odds with the natural processes we can observe.

I'm not convinced that I have a good reason to stay on these forums and if nothing enlightening happens on this thread then I'm done

That's a rather lofty expectation for a forum. True enlightenment will not come from us. True enlightenment comes from opening your heart to infinite intelligence and taking your questions directly to the Creator. If the Bible; written by God's greatest prophets and Christ's devoted disciples; could not bring enlightenment to you then I'm afraid our attempts will fail miserably.

The vast majority of attempts at answering my questions have been abysmal failures, which wasn't surprising, but what surprised me was the amount of vitriol and hate Christians have spewed at me.

While there is no excuse for anger for simply asking questions, put yourself in the position of many her who endure countless attacks from atheist and make-believe Christians on a daily basis all with one unified goal; to attack and erode their faith. Given that information, can you see where someone might get defensive when you ask many of the same questions that others ask as if there was a pre-written schedule of arguments to use against Christians?

I've participated in this, sometimes instigating and sometimes rightfully responding to unprovoked attacks,

So you admit to instigating and sometimes rightfully responding to unprovoked attacks? That seems rather confrontational, don't you think? I saw that chart you posted comparing the resurrection of Christ; the most important happening in the history of the earth; to an alien abduction. I might add, however, that the last part is a lie. The disciples neither sought nor received personal glory on earth. They were stoned, spit upon, beaten, tortured and murdered, and yet with their dying breaths they refused to recant the things the Lord had taught them and the story of Christ's resurrection. The legions of Rome couldn't put down the story. It spread throughout the world. Why would a man suffer and lie for a lie? He would not. He would only be so confident if he knew what he was saying was the undisputable truth. You make light of that, denigrate their sacrifice, attack the Scriptures and complain that you haven't seen love and intelligent discourse? That hardly seems like the action of one seeking debate. It's more like saying, "In your face, Christians."

I simply do not see the love of Christ anywhere on these forums.

If we didn't love you we'd just agree with you and let you follow your own path to destruction. When people tell you you're going the wrong way it's not because they want to see you fall, but because they want to share in the glory of the Lord with you. And yet, by your own words you aren't extending love yourself. Remember that the people on these forums are human beings with feelings. If you attack you're liable to get hit back. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.

In my time here I've seen hatred, mockery, and willful ignorance. What I haven't seen is love or intelligent discourse.

That depends on what you consider willful ignorance. Are we ignorant because we don't agree with you? Because we hold the Bible in higher regard than the laws of physics? Because we believe that when God said He made the world in six days that He was telling us the truth? I could easily say that it takes willful ignorance to pretend that we live in a world where Jesus is NOT the son of God; where God is NOT the creator; where there is no existence other than the physical world; where angels and demons do NOT war for the souls of man. The difference between ignorance and enlightenment is truth. If our truth is correct, then we are the enlightened ones and the non-believers are the ignorant ones. As for intelligent discourse, I haven't read your other threads. I can't comment on that. I can tell you, however, that the non-believers are not enlightened by their refusal to accept the Lord. To be intelligent one has to have a certain knowledge of the world around them. Most atheists, by definition, lack this knowledge. Their interpretation of reality is distorted by their rejection of the greater reality that lies beyond. Wisdom comes in loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. Everything else is temporary and transient.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

If there are paradoxes and unanswerable questions, isn't it trolling if one refuses to admit that and instead provides a terrible answer that cannot withstand casual scrutiny?

Well no, it simply means that either as apologists they failed in their task by failimg to note the paradoxical nature of the subject matter, or it could perhaps mean that there was a breakdown in communication. Trolling is malicious posting designed to harass or distress members or cause their perspectives to be dismissed, and I believe its against the rules of the site.

I am reticent to put much weight on the idea of casual scrutiny, however, because this seems potentially very subjective.

I will say however I have seen a few people troll in here, including some doctrinaire fundamentalists, who appear to have never tried to explain the faith to members like you put who merely wished to post their own opinions about why your personal worldview or perspective is worthless. And that's not cool; it is trolling.

But I did also see a few instances where someone was trying sincerely and earnestly to explain a complex theological subject to you, I remember one specific vase involving the devil, and you did claim they were trollimg and put them on ignore, and I think in doing that you missed out on the chance to hear what rhey were sincerely trying to explain, and it struck me personally as being heavy handed or unfair.

I think that trolling is where someone is simply mocking you or posting statements of their Christian faith in a triumphalist way in response to your threads without even in some cases looking to see what your thread was about, or where they did take not of it, it was just so they could flood the thread more, and Inthink much of the trolling I saw could be identified by the fact that it was not personally identified to you. I think however if someone is talking to you, personally, and earnestly trying to explain something, they are probably not trolling, and you should give them the benefit of the doubt and try to hear them out.

Now, I would love join you in an open or private discussion, and to work with @Truthfrees to try to seriously answer some of your questions, along with certain other members we mentioned. Some of us are members of a debate club, and our debate club has an Ombudsman furthermore; if we proceed forward with the discussion with @Truthfrees and you think anyone breaks the rules, you should report us; Truthfrees is also a mod and I am sure will whack us upside the head if any of us dare to say anything of a trolling kind if we have this discussion. But, if I personally posted anything that offended you but which you did not think was against the rules of the forum, you could also complain to @St_Worm2, the ombudsman of my club; we are prohibited by our own internal club rules from making any recourse to logical fallacy, ad hominems or any kind of personal abuse, so if you thought I was trolling you and @St_Worm2 agreed, he could force me to edit my post and apologize, and if I refused, kick me out of the club (and I am one of two co-presidents).

@Truthfrees on the other hand is a mod, a very honorable and well qualified and educated member of the staff, and is accountable to all of the other mods, in the same way I am accountable to my club; I don't know what kind of rules the forum staff have for participation in debate and how they comoare wih ours, but considering the good job they do with these forums, I am sure we could have a constructive debate and answer some of your questions in an environment free of trolling.

So please let myself and @Truthfrees know if you want to do that.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Nihilist,

I just joined the site. I am a retired United Methodist minister and, prior to that, was a theology professor for 12 years. As a doctoral student, I was a Teaching Fellow at Harvard. Why not give me a chance to engage your questions? We can do this either in private communications or in a new thread. A suggestion: Why not start a thread in Apologetics entitled, "Burning Questions," and then list all of yours, including all your doubts and barriers to faith? If you don't find our critical engagement productive or if you just don't like my attitude, then just discontinue it.

I appreciate the offer but if I make such a thread it will be locked. I once made a thread with four questions and that happened.

I already have several threads up in the apologetics forum. You need a certain amount of posts and likes to be able to post there, so if you read my posts and want to reply but need help with getting likes then I'll help you out.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I think you should consider reading books about Christian apologetics from people that have done more research on Christianity than the average person including myself.

Already have.

Who moved the Stone?, Mere Christianity, More than a Carpenter, Amazing Grace...

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Perhaps you should try a Christian forum that isn't an Evangelical Christian forum. Have you been to such a forum? Have you considered non-Evangelical Christianity?

If I was going to come back to Christianity, it would not be to the denomination that deliberately allowed thousands of children to get raped. I cannot conceive of anything more insidious than that.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

In real life that's a very self centered and unreasonable expectation, and I know you say you don't and may even consider this hateful, but you kind of are that, whether you have the desire or not.. Christian or not, life is a two way street.



You have to play a role in that too. I could be wrong but you seem to be determined to shut down everything. I mean that's nothing new for the Atheist but still, if you are open to nothing, then nothing gets in.

I want you to stay too, but attitude begets attitude, those are just the facts. You require others to have a thick skin in order to be around you, you'll have to grow one yourself. If you have the desire to know God, you'll keep at it and not essentially run yourself off. I've no doubt you've gotten some hateful responses, but there is a point there where just maybe we as Christians are put together to lose patience at some point, in order to drive home points that need making.

What exactly are you looking for? I mean are you in the "need proof God even exists" stage? God's just a meany stage? All that and then some? What turns you off about the whole thing? If it's merely hateful Christians, again...two way street/Golden rule would be a good start there.

And lastly, the person with the attitude generally has too much of an attitude to see they have one at all...been there myself and still go there on occasion, maybe even often so, isn't just you, but doesn't get us very far nonetheless.

My best advise...never give up looking for this. Yell/scream, pitch a fit with God/others whatever it takes. If you knock and it isn't opened unto you...knock louder.

What stage am I in? I'm in the stage where I'm sick and tired of lukewarm Christians and I would like to see their faith cemented or destroyed. If Christians actually made a genuine effort to honor and obey Christ then this world would be vastly better. And it goes without saying that if they all just dropped their faith then the world would be immeasurably better.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

There are alternatives: I myself like to associate with churches facing active martyrdom, like the Coptic Christians killed last year by ISIL, depicted in this beautiful icon. Some of these churches are Evangelical; a great many are the ancient Orthodox or apostolic churches like the Assyrian Church of the East, or non-Roman Catholic churches like the Chaldeans, who did not have a paedophilia scandal.

If I was going to come back to Christianity, it would not be to the denomination that deliberately allowed thousands of children to get raped. I cannot conceive of anything more insidious than that.

Well, in that case, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East might be worth looking into, as none of them ever had a major problem with that, but all three have been the victims of genocide. The Armenians, Pontic Greeks, Syriac Orthodox and Assyrians were the victims of the Turkish genocide in the early 20th century, in which many children were not only raped but killed in incredibly cruel ways while their parents were forced to watch, while the soldiers laughed. Then, the Soviets launched a very cruel persecution of the Eastern Orthodox in Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Albania, the Ukraine and elsewhere, so that nearly all Eastern Orthodox were being persecuted, with the exception of those in Greece and the Middle East. Now the tables have turned and the Assyrians, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox in Iraq and Syria are facing a genocide at the hands of ISIL, along with related Protestant denominations like the Assyrian Pentecostal church, and Eastern Catholics.

And in Egypt, the Copts (OO) and the Eastern Orthodox monks pf Sinai (EO) and Alexandria are facing pre-genocidal conditions; 21 Copts and nearly 70 Ethiopians were martyred in Libya last year.

 

[Cappadocious]

What stage am I in? I'm in the stage where I'm sick and tired of lukewarm Christians and I would like to see their faith cemented or destroyed. If Christians actually made a genuine effort to honor and obey Christ then this world would be vastly better. And it goes without saying that if they all just dropped their faith then the world would be immeasurably better.

Sounds legit. Now, would it be worth it to be the only one you know with a cemented faith, or do feel you'd need others?

 

[Cappadocious]

If I was going to come back to Christianity, it would not be to the denomination that deliberately allowed thousands of children to get raped. I cannot conceive of anything more insidious than that.

Ok, if you mean the RC, I don't think that's a fair shake at them, but there are plenty of other non-evangelical Christians, like:

Orthodox
Anglican
Old Catholic
Lutheran
Presbyterian
Etc.

 

[JacksBratt]

I appreciate the offer but if I make such a thread it will be locked. I once made a thread with four questions and that happened.

I already have several threads up in the apologetics forum. You need a certain amount of posts and likes to be able to post there, so if you read my posts and want to reply but need help with getting likes then I'll help you out.

What were these four questions? I have seen some pretty radical topics here and the thread has only been locked for actions or statements of posters that were condescending or insulting.

So, go ahead, shoot.... there are a few of us with perked up ears.

 

[JacksBratt]

If I was going to come back to Christianity, it would not be to the denomination that deliberately allowed thousands of children to get raped. I cannot conceive of anything more insidious than that.

"If you were going to come back to Christianity" It would not be to a certain denomination?

You do realize that Christ hates religion, right? That is what He was killed for. He came and told the "religious" leaders that they were hypocrites. Yes, He did admit that He was the "I am" which infuriated them. However, His big problem to the "high priests" was that He exposed their faults and misconceptions.

All religions are man made. Christ came to free us and this meant freedom from religious constraints. He only wants a relationship with you and for you to live by His word and His examples. Yes, you need to get on your knees and suck it up. Admit that you are a sinner and truly repent (be sorry and remorseful) of what you have done, and have a genuine desire to strive for a more righteous life. Yes, you need to accept that He is God made man, the messiah who conquered death and that He did this for you.

If you do this and ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to come into your heart and guide you in your life.....you will need not worry about "denomination" or the actions of others. You find a church that has a policy or covenant that you can agree with or live with. None will be perfectly in line with your view but many differences are only minor discrepancies.

Then you attend, get involved, read scripture, pray for others and yourself, grow in your relationship with Christ and help the church (the group of people who attend) strive to attain the goals of the policy. Help do the one and only thing we are told, by Christ, to do...... "go and make disciples".

 

[aiki]

What stage am I in? I'm in the stage where I'm sick and tired of lukewarm Christians and I would like to see their faith cemented or destroyed. If Christians actually made a genuine effort to honor and obey Christ then this world would be vastly better. And it goes without saying that if they all just dropped their faith then the world would be immeasurably better.

Well, inasmuch as you don't know all Christians, or even a majority of them, your criticism of the few you think you do know can't be legitimately expanded to apply to all Christians.

Many Christians work very hard to make the world a better place, but what the World thinks is a better place and what a Christian thinks is a better place are not always one-and-the-same thing. Often, then, the work Christians seek to do in the World is met with resistance and criticism.

Many hospitals, schools, universities, charities, orphanages and many of the rights and freedoms enjoyed by western societies would be absent if Christians had just "dropped their faith." I don't, then, see how their doing so would make the world "immeasurably better." Many countries that have lived under secular, godless political systems are much the worse for having done so. Just ask those who lived under Stalin, or Mao, or Pol Pot. Taking God out of the picture doesn't seem to improve things but is often the herald of a culture's slow slide into dissolution.

Selah.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What stage am I in? I'm in the stage where I'm sick and tired of lukewarm Christians and I would like to see their faith cemented or destroyed. If Christians actually made a genuine effort to honor and obey Christ then this world would be vastly better. And it goes without saying that if they all just dropped their faith then the world would be immeasurably better.

Then I'd suggest you get back in there and do better...do your part in making the world a better place on your own instead of bellyaching about what others do or don't do. Set an example for those lukewarm around you, show them how to cement their faith and if that doesn't work, you tried and that's all that can be expected of you..

We only have full control of ourselves. If done properly, we may be able to sway others, but that's about as far as it goes. Your gripes are far from good reason to get away from the faith, but all the more reason to hold on to it. What can I say? there will always be insincere people in this world...don't let them take away your salvation.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The first question that comes to my mind is, why are you here in the first place? Understanding your motive for coming to a forum is an important part of deciding whether a forum is right for you. You present yourself as an atheist in a Christian forum. The two leading reasons an atheist come here are because they really want someone to show them the way to the Lord, or because they really want to show Christians how dumb they are for believing in God. This is based on several years of dealing with atheists and, yes, they are generalizations. So ask yourself, are you bringing discourse or hostility? What you present to others will determine how they view and respond to you. Come to me with a smile and I will smile back. Come to me with fists clenched and my guard is up.

Indoctrinated is not educated. It would have been better had you been educated into the faith. You can't backslide if you aren't a believer, and it doesn't sound like you were ever converted. In many (formerly most) families the parents raise their children to believe as they had been taught. but too often this consists of telling them to read their Bible, say their prayers and wear good clothes to meeting. While these things are good for appearance sake, none of them will of themselves bring a child to the Lord. That is a very personal process. I was saved when I was 12, but I had some pretty good evidence of the power of the Lord to change people and save souls.

The Bible is a mystery to the unsaved because they lack the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. It's one thing to know what it says and quite another to know what it means. A good teacher will walk you through the Scriptures, showing you the deeper meaning in the verses which were originally written in another time for people in a vastly different culture. Much of the Bible is hard to believe for the skeptic because it starts with a world view they reject; "In the beginning, God..." We are taught in schools that we live in a world governed by natural laws and everything has a cause and effect relationship to everything else. The revelation is that; while the world may go on based on the physical laws that apply to it, there is a greater law that can supersede physical law as easily as a writer can add a plot twist to an otherwise predictable story. Lacking this understanding, the story of creation at the beginning of the Bible seems completely implausible because it is at odds with the natural processes we can observe.

That's a rather lofty expectation for a forum. True enlightenment will not come from us. True enlightenment comes from opening your heart to infinite intelligence and taking your questions directly to the Creator. If the Bible; written by God's greatest prophets and Christ's devoted disciples; could not bring enlightenment to you then I'm afraid our attempts will fail miserably.

While there is no excuse for anger for simply asking questions, put yourself in the position of many her who endure countless attacks from atheist and make-believe Christians on a daily basis all with one unified goal; to attack and erode their faith. Given that information, can you see where someone might get defensive when you ask many of the same questions that others ask as if there was a pre-written schedule of arguments to use against Christians?

So you admit to instigating and sometimes rightfully responding to unprovoked attacks? That seems rather confrontational, don't you think? I saw that chart you posted comparing the resurrection of Christ; the most important happening in the history of the earth; to an alien abduction. I might add, however, that the last part is a lie. The disciples neither sought nor received personal glory on earth. They were stoned, spit upon, beaten, tortured and murdered, and yet with their dying breaths they refused to recant the things the Lord had taught them and the story of Christ's resurrection. The legions of Rome couldn't put down the story. It spread throughout the world. Why would a man suffer and lie for a lie? He would not. He would only be so confident if he knew what he was saying was the undisputable truth. You make light of that, denigrate their sacrifice, attack the Scriptures and complain that you haven't seen love and intelligent discourse? That hardly seems like the action of one seeking debate. It's more like saying, "In your face, Christians."

If we didn't love you we'd just agree with you and let you follow your own path to destruction. When people tell you you're going the wrong way it's not because they want to see you fall, but because they want to share in the glory of the Lord with you. And yet, by your own words you aren't extending love yourself. Remember that the people on these forums are human beings with feelings. If you attack you're liable to get hit back. Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.

That depends on what you consider willful ignorance. Are we ignorant because we don't agree with you? Because we hold the Bible in higher regard than the laws of physics? Because we believe that when God said He made the world in six days that He was telling us the truth? I could easily say that it takes willful ignorance to pretend that we live in a world where Jesus is NOT the son of God; where God is NOT the creator; where there is no existence other than the physical world; where angels and demons do NOT war for the souls of man. The difference between ignorance and enlightenment is truth. If our truth is correct, then we are the enlightened ones and the non-believers are the ignorant ones. As for intelligent discourse, I haven't read your other threads. I can't comment on that. I can tell you, however, that the non-believers are not enlightened by their refusal to accept the Lord. To be intelligent one has to have a certain knowledge of the world around them. Most atheists, by definition, lack this knowledge. Their interpretation of reality is distorted by their rejection of the greater reality that lies beyond. Wisdom comes in loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul. Everything else is temporary and transient.

Thank you for drafting an in depth response. My purpose for being here, or rather what I'd like to see, is for Christians to either abandon their faith or embrace it. I think either would be a good thing. Imagine a world with no religion. Or perhaps imagine a world where Christians dine with sinners and give all they have to minister to the poor - NOT difficult whatsoever. There is no excuse for watching a 70 inch TV while children starve to death around the clock while also professing to be a follower of Christ. I cannot conceive of a thought that is more laughable.

 

[Deadworm]

NV, in the Christian apologetics and theistic evolution sections where a newbie like me can post, I have started and will be starting threads with scientifically and biblically literate skeptics like you in mind. I grew up as a devout Canadian Pentecostal boy, whose crippling doubts festered especially during long prayer and fasting sessions in our church steeple. My conversations with Pastors and Bible school teachers only made my faith crisis worse, because they gave me the standard pat answers that I had already carefully considered and discarded. What initially made the decisive difference for me was not conventional Christian apologetics, but awesome paranormal experiences of divine power and intervention that have interrupted my life and the lives of Christian friends and associates throughout my life.

In my view, these experiences fit best in the Apologetics section for Christians, though a new section on Christianity and the Paranormal seems advisable to me. Please monitor my threads there, and when I can post in the skeptics section, I will look for your responses to the issues I've raised.








canadian Pentecostal

 

[aiki]

Christians dine with sinners and give all they have to minister to the poor - NOT difficult whatsoever. There is no excuse for watching a 70 inch TV while children starve to death around the clock while also professing to be a follower of Christ. I cannot conceive of a thought that is more laughable.

It's...convenient how by apostasizing from the faith you have exempted yourself from your own criticisms.

If Christians gave all they had to the poor, they would themselves be the poor and in need of the charity of others. You see, then, the foolish and unsustainable nature of the demand for extreme charity you're placing on Christians.

Selah.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well no, it simply means that either as apologists they failed in their task by failimg to note the paradoxical nature of the subject matter, or it could perhaps mean that there was a breakdown in communication. Trolling is malicious posting designed to harass or distress members or cause their perspectives to be dismissed, and I believe its against the rules of the site.

I am reticent to put much weight on the idea of casual scrutiny, however, because this seems potentially very subjective.

I will say however I have seen a few people troll in here, including some doctrinaire fundamentalists, who appear to have never tried to explain the faith to members like you put who merely wished to post their own opinions about why your personal worldview or perspective is worthless. And that's not cool; it is trolling.

But I did also see a few instances where someone was trying sincerely and earnestly to explain a complex theological subject to you, I remember one specific vase involving the devil, and you did claim they were trollimg and put them on ignore, and I think in doing that you missed out on the chance to hear what rhey were sincerely trying to explain, and it struck me personally as being heavy handed or unfair.

I think that trolling is where someone is simply mocking you or posting statements of their Christian faith in a triumphalist way in response to your threads without even in some cases looking to see what your thread was about, or where they did take not of it, it was just so they could flood the thread more, and Inthink much of the trolling I saw could be identified by the fact that it was not personally identified to you. I think however if someone is talking to you, personally, and earnestly trying to explain something, they are probably not trolling, and you should give them the benefit of the doubt and try to hear them out.

Now, I would love join you in an open or private discussion, and to work with @Truthfrees to try to seriously answer some of your questions, along with certain other members we mentioned. Some of us are members of a debate club, and our debate club has an Ombudsman furthermore; if we proceed forward with the discussion with @Truthfrees and you think anyone breaks the rules, you should report us; Truthfrees is also a mod and I am sure will whack us upside the head if any of us dare to say anything of a trolling kind if we have this discussion. But, if I personally posted anything that offended you but which you did not think was against the rules of the forum, you could also complain to @St_Worm2, the ombudsman of my club; we are prohibited by our own internal club rules from making any recourse to logical fallacy, ad hominems or any kind of personal abuse, so if you thought I was trolling you and @St_Worm2 agreed, he could force me to edit my post and apologize, and if I refused, kick me out of the club (and I am one of two co-presidents).

@Truthfrees on the other hand is a mod, a very honorable and well qualified and educated member of the staff, and is accountable to all of the other mods, in the same way I am accountable to my club; I don't know what kind of rules the forum staff have for participation in debate and how they comoare wih ours, but considering the good job they do with these forums, I am sure we could have a constructive debate and answer some of your questions in an environment free of trolling.

So please let myself and @Truthfrees know if you want to do that.

I've already accepted the offer but I do not know if I'm interested in the participation of ViaCrucis or St_Worm2 because they have a tendency to abandon conversation without notice.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

NV, in the Christian apologetics and theistic evolution sections where a newbie like me can post, I have started and will be starting threads with scientifically and biblically literate skeptics like you in mind. I grew up as a devout Canadian Pentecostal boy, whose crippling doubts festered especially during long prayer and fasting sessions in our church steeple. My conversations with Pastors and Bible school teachers only made my faith crisis worse, because they gave me the standard pat answers that I had already carefully considered and discarded. What initially made the decisive difference for me was not conventional Christian apologetics, but awesome paranormal experiences of divine power and intervention that have interrupted my life and the lives of Christian friends and associates throughout my life.

In my view, these experiences fit best in the Apologetics section for Christians, though a new section on Christianity and the Paranormal seems advisable to me. Please monitor my threads there, and when I can post in the skeptics section, I will look for your responses to the issues I've raised.








canadian Pentecostal

Ok, thank you.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Then I'd suggest you get back in there and do better...do your part in making the world a better place on your own instead of bellyaching about what others do or don't do. Set an example for those lukewarm around you, show them how to cement their faith and if that doesn't work, you tried and that's all that can be expected of you..

We only have full control of ourselves. If done properly, we may be able to sway others, but that's about as far as it goes. Your gripes are far from good reason to get away from the faith, but all the more reason to hold on to it. What can I say? there will always be insincere people in this world...don't let them take away your salvation.

Bellyaching? I don't care whether they live or die any more than you do. I am just tired of hearing you Christians drag Christ's name through the mud. He said specifically who his followers are, and what his followers would do... and then the self-professing Christians vote Republican, lol.