Heretical Content and/or Occult Interpretations Found in Freemasonry

[perrfekt]

what i notice, is that all of those oaths, are in the context of "Let God punish and/or kill them" for whatever the oath is for. from my understanding, thats pretty different from freemason oaths.

 

[ALX25]

Silence? Is that what you take it to be when someone responds? And what if the one to whom you speak doesn't have the luxury of having nothing better to do, as you seem to have, and can't reply until much longer after the question was asked? After all, there was only 59 minutes between question and reply. If it wasn't for the ice storm, I doubt I'd have even been in here this afternoon. It's been kinda in and out just a little bit, too, we might lose internet connection before it's over.

Seems kinda short-sighted to wait one hour, then make smug declarations of victory--especially when your reply didn't come till 12 minutes AFTER I had already replied.

Besides, some of us (unlike you, for sure) like to take a little time and actually put some thought into it before replying.

I dont beleive it your actually going to argue this one...

 

[ALX25]

That's pure hogwash. Those joining Masonry today are probably the most-informed Masons who have ever joined. One man told me he knew every detail of every degree in Masonry inside and out before he ever took the first one.

Wayne your dreaming again, the candidates don't know jack, so stop it

Well, you can substitute whatever you wish, now can't you? And you certainly did with this one. And what about all those Masons who join in jurisdictions where the oath doesn't contain the symbolic imprecatory sections? You can't make accusations about what they never took in the first place. But since you can't read minds, and since God is the only person who can, why not leave judgment up to Him? He's Judge and you're not, whether you leave it up to Him or not anyway.

Like your SC lodge right wayne? , and no one has to read minds to hear and see what masonry teaches besides God's word in Proverbs 18 20-21 is truth and already carries divine judgement, his counsel is just that Rev. judgement... and his judgement and counsel warns man about the power of the tounge SIR....


I'm sure He does, which should be even further reason for you to refrain from judging--because God knows about it when you do.

His word and his divine counsel found in the Holy Bible is his judgement , and christians follow his judgement unlike Masonry.


Nobody is "speaking death" if they take it as symbolic. I wasn't "speaking death" when I took it, because I understood the symbolism. It gets expressed in another place even more clearly, with a meaning more like "If I violate my obligation, may it be as much a pain to my conscience as the physical pain would be if these things were done." All you're doing is trying to force your own opinions upon it. All these antimasons want to do is make it look they're so smart and Masons are so dumb, that Masons were somehow duped into joining.

Then you my friend dont understand scripture, nor the divine counsel expressed in Proverbs 18 20-21 ,

Why don't you ask Mike, I've never seen anything witnessed to by him, that indicates in any way that when he took the oaths, that he was worried about any of these things being done to him. To suggest it is not only inaccurate, it's just plain silly.

Ask Mike , go right ahead , that's a first for you... running to mike...


You just don't get it, do you? Where did you think Masonry GOT the model it uses? The OT is FULL of such self-deprecatory statements when someone is indicating how serious they are about a matter:

Oh I got it , and then I got out of masonry Rev..

I could go on, there are plenty more of these, but I think the readers get the picture.


You can't and I'll prove it again


(1) It's not "speaking death," (2) it's gradually being phased out of Masonry anyway, and (3) it's not prohibited. The practice Jesus spoke of in taking oaths was in taking them frivolously, and/or not being sincere when one takes it. Pretty much a polar opposite, as anyone can see.

Your in denial Wayne, your argument has no leg to stand on... try again or stay silent ... Show me scripture where JESUS teaches oaths Reverend???

 

[Rev Wayne]

what i notice, is that all of those oaths, are in the context of "Let God punish and/or kill them" for whatever the oath is for. from my understanding, thats pretty different from freemason oaths.

You're right, they are. Freemason oaths are much milder, I promise to be faithful to those with whom I am in this relationship, I promise to be true to what I say, etc. And if I don't, then let it be such a pain to my conscience that it will remind me of my promises.

You are right, the Bible's examples are MUCH stronger than that.

 

[Skip Sampson]

The error is, you attribute this to Masonry, when Masonry's position is neutral.

Aren't you the guy that made this claim:

Freemasonry's rituals, affirming as they do, the God whom David and Solomon served, and to whose glory Solomon's Temple in the OT was erected, affirm the God of the Bible. This is and always has been the God affirmed by Masonry.

Masonry has always affirmed the God of the Bible, with its rituals founded on biblical accounts, and its truths rooted in biblical teaching.

Seems a bit self-contradictory, don't ya think? Cordially, Skip.

 

[O.F.F.]

The error is, you attribute this to Masonry, when Masonry's position is neutral.

Aren't you the guy that made this claim:

Freemasonry's rituals, affirming as they do, the God whom David and Solomon served, and to whose glory Solomon's Temple in the OT was erected, affirm the God of the Bible. This is and always has been the God affirmed by Masonry.

Masonry has always affirmed the God of the Bible, with its rituals founded on biblical accounts, and its truths rooted in biblical teaching.

Seems a bit self-contradictory, don't ya think? Cordially, Skip.

Looks like you NAILED him again my brother!

Wayne relies on what "Freemasonry was" and ignores what it has become. Yet he fails to realize that most Christian readers will find his position tantamount to a Christian remaining in a church, or denomination, or even under the leadership of a pastor that went – from a biblical worldview – to a vague, neutral, nebulous, metaphysical worldview; but somehow deceives themselves into thinking that it's still compatible with biblical Christianity.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

You're right, they are. Freemason oaths are much milder, I promise to be faithful to those with whom I am in this relationship, I promise to be true to what I say, etc. And if I don't, then let it be such a pain to my conscience that it will remind me of my promises.

You are right, the Bible's examples are MUCH stronger than that.

My dear brother,

If the GWM is to announce throughout the world that all of mankind should follow the world govts rule of being microchipped with an rfid tag, and certain Christians in your "flock" were to violate such rule, would you obey your oath to the GWM and turn over those sheep within your "flock" for failure to obey the worlds lawful order?


I suppose my question could be more easily answered if I phrase it as such.

To whom do you owe your allegiance? To the flock for which you have become shepherd, or to the lodge for which you have received fraternity?

With hope for you and your brothers,
charles

 

[Rev Wayne]

Seems a bit self-contradictory, don't ya think?

Nope, you just gotta look at what's being addressed in each. You're always doing that, pulling from one place and dumping things into another where the context and the aspects under discussion were entirely different.

Addressing simply "Masonry" in the broader aspect of it, and discussing "Freemasonry's rituals," are two different things, as anyone without a predisposed bias toward knocking whatever any Mason may post, would easily be able to discern. The God affirmed in Freemasonry's rituals most definitely IS the God of the Bible, for the Bible is the only holy book that has portions of its content as the main setting of Blue Degree rituals.

On the other hand, Masonry's "neutral" position is more of a position toward who is allowed to become a member. Everything else in the dynamics of that neutrality is focused like spokes on a wheel, right back to that idea of the neutrality of the individual who enters. Masonic "neutrality" is not a system of "anything goes," it is a structure designed to uphold the basic right of the individual to the freedom of his own beliefs.

Yet he fails to realize that most Christian readers will find his position tantamount to a Christian remaining in a church, or denomination, or even under the leadership of a pastor that went – from a biblical worldview – to a vague, neutral, nebulous, metaphysical worldview; but somehow deceives themselves into thinking that it's still compatible with biblical Christianity.

Don't know why you put it down to "a church, or denomination," when that totally confuses and thus shoots down the analogy you attempt to establish with it. Freemasonry also has many subdivisions of it, "denominations" if you will, which are not all cut of the same cloth. You have Swedish Rite Masonry, for example, whose Blue Degree lodges make Christian faith a requirement for membership. The lodges of the UGLE, the lodges of Canada, and the lodges of the U.S. all have the Holy Bible as their VSL residing upon the altar, and required as the Book which must open the lodge.

And what you call a "vague, neutral, nebulous, metaphysical worldview" is not nearly the same when you consider it from any of the smaller divisions of it. Take South Carolina Grand Lodge, for example, which is one of those smaller divisions comparable to a "denomination." It is autonomous unto itself as pertains to authority and government of its lodges. And it affirms the God of the Bible, both NT and OT, within the monitorial work in Ahiman Rezon. It also has the Holy Bible on its altar, declares the Holy Bible to be the "rule and guide of our faith," has readings from the Bible, and has degrees and lectures whose primary focus and setting are on stories surrounding the building of the temple of Solomon.

So no, your analogy is improper, and would more properly apply if the comparison were made as it should be, between Christianity itself and Masonry, NOT in a comparison between "Masonry" and "a church or denomination." Moreover, the claim of "not being compatible with biblical Christianity" is completely false in a system which is not mixing any belief systems to begin with.

As always, y'all fudge the details to conform to the accusation, and end up shooting your own arguments in the foot.

 

[Rev Wayne]

If the GWM is to announce throughout the world that all of mankind should follow the world govts rule of being microchipped with an rfid tag, and certain Christians in your "flock" were to violate such rule, would you obey your oath to the GWM and turn over those sheep within your "flock" for failure to obey the worlds lawful order?

GWM? What's that? The Gay White Male, or the George Washington Museum? I never made any "oath" to any such personage, as far as I am aware. The closest I can get this to things Masonic is, the Grand Worthy Marshal of the Knights Templar, but that's hardly someone who would be able to make any proclamations about "all of mankind"--nor do I think you can come up with anyone else who would qualify to pontificate in Masonry in any such manner.

You seem to have some kind of fantasy that Masonry has some sort of central government. I assure you they do not. The only person who might be making statements to apply to the entire jurisdiction where I reside, would be the GM of South Carolina. But I doubt if our GM, a Baptist deacon and teacher, will be making any such proclamations as you suggest.

Really, the whole basis of your question is so far beyond the merely hypothetical basis upon which you attempt to predicate it, as to be beyond even considering, much less attempting to offer a response.

As I've already stated, I joined at the Lord's behest, I will leave only in the same manner--unless you can think of some other reason why I should disobey the Lord and prefer someone else's input on the matter. I really thought from that statement, it ought to have been eminently clear to you or anyone else where my allegiance resides.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

Does the mason owe his allegiance to the fraternity or to the church, to his govt or to his ALMighty God?

Simple question, but one if your answer were to be published would violate your oath to masonry.

Brother's Daniel, Shadrach, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah had no problems answering this question. And although they were all sentenced to death, our God ALmighty gave them life, and more abundantly.

 

[ChristianMasonJim]

Does the mason owe his allegiance to the fraternity or to the church, to his govt or to his ALMighty God?

Simple question, but one if your answer were to be published would violate your oath to masonry.

Brother's Daniel, Shadrach, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah had no problems answering this question. And although they were all sentenced to death, our God ALmighty gave them life, and more abundantly.

My loyalty is first to God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, next my loyalty is to my family and my vocation, then my loyalty is to the fraternity. That's how it was explained to me. Other jurisdictions may communicated differently. But then anti-Masons dismiss anything that is communicated orally. And stating this is certainly not compromising any obligations I took as this information is not secret.

 

[ALX25]

Just like old times Wayne, almost like everybody get's a turn at you like a pinata at a party....

 

[Skip Sampson]

Freemason oaths are much milder, ... the Bible's examples are MUCH stronger than that.

Really? Where in the bible does one promise to have his throat cut from ear to ear, or his bowels torn out? Cordially, Skip.

 

[ALX25]

Your in denial Wayne, your argument has no leg to stand on... try again or stay silent ... Show me scripture where JESUS teaches oaths Reverend???

Wayne your silence says it all.........

 

[Skip Sampson]

ALX25:
I like your pinata picture. Mike captured Wayne's general expression and you've captured the intent of his posts. Marvelous! Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Does the mason owe his allegiance to the fraternity or to the church, to his govt or to his ALMighty God?

Simple question, but one if your answer were to be published would violate your oath to masonry.

I already responded, just because you don't like my answer and are fishing for another one, does not mean there is one. Apparently, though, you have something in mind, which, no matter what it is, is certainly not MY response. Maybe you can enlighten us as to what it is you seem to have been TOLD would be the answer.

While you're at it, perhaps you can get around to clarifying for us, as I requested, just what a "GWM" is.

Brother's Daniel, Shadrach, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah had no problems answering this question.

Good story. And I have no problem answering either, I serve the One Who came fourth in the fire, Whom I understand to be the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who, of course, by YOUR count, would have been the FIFTH man in the fire, since you seem to have named four already. Just jesting, of course, perhaps you didn't realize that Shadrach was identical to Hananiah, being the Chaldean form rather than the Hebraic.

 

[O.F.F.]

Some Short Notes on

The Golden Dawn and its Connection to Freemasonry
from mastermason.com​

This Temple [Isis-Urana No.3] was consecrated as a successor to Hermanubis No.2 which had ceased to exist , owing to the decease of all its Chiefs.

The Temple No. 1 of Lichte, Liebe, Leben is a group of continental mystics who have not been in the habit of performing ceremonies in open lodge...

‘Historical Lecture’ of the Golden Dawn[1]

The origins of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, the wellspring of almost all modern occult thought and practice, is a matter of some controversy. The Golden Dawn was founded on the discovery of a manuscript in cipher that, when subsequently deciphered, formed the basis of its ritual. Where this ritual ultimately originated is a mystery as is the role of an address that was found with the manuscript, an address of a Rosicrucian adept in Germany who was to give permission for the ‘re-establishment’ of an English branch of the Order.

Can the origin of the Golden Dawn to be found in a Masonic lodge? I believe so.

The clues for the Masonic genesis of Golden Dawn are many. The name of the Order as given in the Cypher Ms is in Hebrew, ChBRTh ZRCh AVR BQD, or according to Westcott’s translation, Chabrath Zerek Aour Bokhr or ‘Society of the Shining Light of Dawn’[2]. Gerald Suster, in a short essay rebuffing some of the claims of Ellic Howe, who wrote the definitive history of the Golden Dawn, quotes from Gershom Scholem’s book From Berlin to Jerusalem to the effect that there was a ‘so called Frankfurt Jewish Masonic Lodge named Chabrath Zereh Boqer Aour’[3]. This I believe is no coincidence.

The Frankfurt Jewish lodge did exist. It was chartered on June 17 1807 as Loge St. John de L’aurore Naissante by the Grand Orient of France when Frankfurt was occupied by the Grande Armee of Napoleon. A number of Jews petitioned the Grand Orient for a charter since they could not gain entry into the anti-Semitic German lodges of the day. L’aurore Naissante admitted both Jews and Gentiles, raising the Jewish members up to the degree of Master Mason, but the Christian members were entitled to the option of progressing through the ‘higher degrees’ of the Scot Rite, degrees which barred Jewish members from participation due to their Christian nature.

As part of the French Empire all restrictions against Jews had been lifted but with Napoleon’s defeat toleration ended and the Jewish Freemasons were again ostracised. With the withdrawal of Napoleon’s troops it was thought expedient not to be associated with anything French, so L’aurore Naissante immediately deleted any reference to the Grand Orient in its materials, changed its name to Loge zur aufgehenden Morgenrothe, and began to look for another obedience to associate with. They applied to Prince Carl von Hessen, himself a mason and one of the ‘movers and shakers’ of the ‘Asiatic Brethren’ which not only admitted both Jews and Gentiles but was also very involved in mystical, even occult, elements of Freemasonry and kaballah. Negotiations eventually broke down. Eventually in 1817 Morgenrothe found the full recognition it was seeking through August Frederick, Duke of Sussex, the Grand Master of the United Grand Lodge of England, who empowered the lodge to operate as a Masonic lodge without any restrictions, with the added assurance that ‘parallel degrees would be instituted for them’[4]. Morgenrothe eventually left UGLE for membership in the Eclectic Covenant of Frankfurt in 1870.

One of the great points of significance in the history of the Morgenrothe is the desire for an alternative to the Scottish Rite accessible to Jewish members. It is possible that the Chabrath Zereh Boqer Aour was created to replace the Scot Rite and from this desire a set of rituals were drafted and discussed but never used. This possibility is made more intriguing by the fact Westcott gave the name of the German ‘Mother Temple’ of the Golden Dawn as Lichte, Liebe, Leben or in English ‘Light, Love, Life’, which is also the motto of the 18º of the Scot Rite of Freemasonry[5]. It is also perhaps significant that in English Masonry the Scot Rite is known as the Rose Croix, or Rose Cross, degrees. It is also worth noting that many of the foundation members were associated with both Baron von Hund’s Strict Observance Freemasonry as well as the Asiatic Brethren, both systems were full of mystical speculation.

If this is the case how did the Cypher ms fall into the hands of Mathers and Westcott?

Rafal Prinke in his essay ‘The Deeper Roots of the Golden Dawn’ provides the information that in 1817 the Duke of Sussex also chartered a daughter lodge of the Morgenrothe in London called ‘Aurore naissante’, which was closed down in 1822 at the request of its motherlodge. Prinke suggests that the lodge ceased Masonic operation but survived as a form of esoteric study group. Prinke also suggests that Lord Bulwer-Lytton, a noted Rosicrucian, first made contact with the London group and from there received an introduction to a ‘Rosicrucian lodge in Frankfurt’, meaning the esoteric element in the Jewish Morgenrothe lodge. From there he received a copy of the cipher manuscript which was acquired by by his friend Frederick Hockley after his death. Hockley was one of the founders of both the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, an esoteric branch of Freemasonry, and the Society of Eight, the inner core of the SRIA.

From there the cipher manuscript could easily have passed into the hands of Westcott or Mathers, both of whom were members of both groups[6]. There is another remote possibility. Sometime during the mid nineteenth century the Grand Secretary of the grand Lodge of England paid a fraternal visit to the Morgenrothe lodge. It is possible that which he was there he picked up the Cypher manuscript – maybe as a result of checking up on aspects of Masonic orthodoxy within the lodge. From there it may have been taken back to England and found its way into the archives or individuals of the SRIA since Hockley, Westcott, John Yarker and others were active collectors of rites and rituals.


[1] ‘The Historical Lecture’ in Ellic Howe The Magicians of the Golden Dawn (Aquarian Press, 1985) pp. 24-25

[2] Darcy Kuntz The Golden Dawn Sourcebook (Holmes Pub Group, 1996), p. 48

[3] ibid., p.150

[4] Jews and Freemasons in Europe (Harvard UP, 1970) p 66

[5] In the Scot Rite, as practised in England, only some of the degrees are actually worked as a ceremonial, the vast majority are conferred without the benefit of ritual. The Degrees 4-17 are conferred during the course of the 18º ceremony and in effect the 18º ‘rules’ the lesser degrees. The significance is that 18º acts as a natural partition within the higher grades and would be a logical stopping point in the construction of a degree system that is designed to replace the (English) Scot Rite.

[6] See Prinkes Essay in Kuntz, pp 150-154

 

[O.F.F.]

Truth​

All truth passes through three stages:

First, it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed
Third, it is accepted as self-evident!

Arthur Schopenhauer [1788-1860]

Please consider the three stages of truth as you seek the truth about yourself and Esoteric Freemasonry. Then consider...

Man has written nothing you should believe unconditionally,
spoken nothing you should believe unconditionally,
and accomplished nothing you should believe unconditionally.

The safest route to Divine Truth is to
believe nothing that you read,
believe nothing that you hear,
believe nothing that you feel,
believe only what you know
in your mind, heart and soul
to be true
beyond all shadow of a doubt.

From "Masonry is Meditation" by Past Master Dr. John Gilbert [1977]​

 

[Rev Wayne]

Some posts are their own refutation. Can't believe you'd even go there.

Fringe Masonry existed. By examining it in a rational manner and in the context of its time we can defuse it and render it worthless as a weapon of attack on mainstream Freemasonry.

John Hamill. Transactions of Quatuor Coronati Lodge. Vol. 109. p. 214.

Fringe Masonry encompasses those regular freemasons whose interest in mysticism and the occult led them to such organizations as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD) and the Ordo Templi Orientis. Neither of these organizations was ever recognized by any regular masonic body. The Golden Dawn had no masonic pretensions but the fact that the founders of the OTO made such claims opened it to accusations of being clandestine or irregular Freemasonry. Since 1919 (Equinox Vol. III, No. 1) they ceased to claim being or having any authority regarding Freemasonry. Currently most masonic Grand Lodge jurisdictions are unaware of, or indifferent to, the existence or history of the OTO.

It must be stressed that although Freemasonry recognizes many of these men as freemasons, no recognized masonic body, and few freemasons, endorse their opinions and conclusions as an accepted extension or interpretation of the teachings of Freemasonry. Their published works have had no positive or lasting impact on Freemasonry. In fact their writings are more often quoted, out of context, by anti-masons attempting to link masonic teachings with these individuals' opinions.

These authors do not, in any fashion, represent the teachings or beliefs of recognized Freemasonry. (BC/Yukon GL website)

Weird indeed. First you post stuff on "Masonic Orthodoxy," and then turn around and post something poles apart from it, without batting an eye.

 

[Rev Wayne]

And now what are you doing, quoting from the AA & EF site again? Tsk, tsk.