Help me understand my Christian daughter

[dhh712]

A belief in God is not necessary to appreciate the wonders of the world we live in, on the contrary, I think understanding how and why things are the way they are only increases the wonder. When I stand on the edge of the Grand Canyon, I can't help but feel awe and wonder at the beauty, but knowledge of the geologic layers, the forces of erosion, the complex ecosystems that live there, and the changes in weather patterns caused by the canyon itself only increase the wonder and make the experience even more awe inspiring. It saddens me to think that my daughter might lose this, and be convinced by people like you that science is cold and confining. It's not, science is the process of finding answers, it's never-ending, because for every answer that's found countless new questions arise. Everything we think we know can be revised and updated with every new discovery. How is that confining? I feel like she understood this as a child, and I don't want her to lose that sense of wonder.

A belief in God is definitely not necessary to appreciate the wonders of the world. I have done so myself when I did not believe in God. Like a few other people on here, I'm concerned as to what faith your daughter has adopted if you are worried that now that she has this faith, she can no longer appreciate science or wonder at the world. Perhaps you've said it on here in a previous post and I missed it, so I apologize for that; nonetheless, I'm still curious.

God has given us this amazing world full of wonder and awe to glorify Him. There is nothing wrong with learning about the different geological ages of the earth or gazing at the planets with a telescope and learn all about them as long as we do it to praise God, not in an effort to prove (by defective reasoning) that He doesn't exist; unfortunately, it seems like that is part of the aim of science, much to its detriment [though of course the scientific world promotes that its effort is not at all to prove or disprove God--which is definitely the truth as I'm quite sure it's main goal is the betterment of society--nevertheless, it seems to be that many atheists utilize the facts which science has discerned from the world in their arguments for how there is no God (or at least that the God of the Bible does not exist)].

Also, I don't find science cold and confining but a very wonderful blessing God has allowed us out of His love for us which has provided people with many things which make for much worldly comfort. I can't understand why science seems to be anti-God of the Bible. Yet I'm mystified by what I see as the unnecessary war that seems to be raging between the physical and spiritual world. It seems that when the one is satisfied, it causes the other to die.

It certainly does seem that throughout the ages, when there seemed to be a dearth of materialistic comfort then there seemed to be more spiritual satisfaction. Then you get to ages in time when there was more materialistic comfort (by whatever means God has arranged it, by science or something else), then you see this exodus of people falling away from God. Personally, I'm not seeking to lose material comfort, but if it came to a choice I hope that God will give me the strength and grace to choose that which is spiritually satisfying over that which comforts the physical body, knowing that such a choice would probably mean quite a deconstruction of the physical life I know now.

 

[elliott95]

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[elliott95]

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[Jeffwhosoever]

Just reading through your posts and had something to offer. The idea that you cannot reconcile science and the Christian faith is misplaced. I have a physical problem I won't go into here, but in searching for a solution, I've been to neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons and these people are directors of spine surgery at top medical schools in the US. Guess what? All of them I've seen thus far in 4 states are Christian. I'm not saying all doctors are Christian, or even the majority, all I'm saying is a lot of the cream of the crop are believers. My nephew in dental school is also a believer. He reconciled his science and faith with a view of how we got here called theistic evolution.

 

[paul1149]

Short, timely piece:

My wife and I are atheists, but our daughter wants to be baptised Catholic | James Harrington | theguardian.com

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Short, timely piece:

My wife and I are atheists, but our daughter wants to be baptised Catholic | James Harrington | theguardian.com

I wonder if people are REALLY Atheists because they just don't see any leftover evidence from a personal intelligent Theistic Creator having created things ? Or , if its just a charade ...one that I use to play for many years myself.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

A belief in God is definitely not necessary to appreciate the wonders of the world. I have done so myself when I did not believe in God. Like a few other people on here, I'm concerned as to what faith your daughter has adopted if you are worried that now that she has this faith, she can no longer appreciate science or wonder at the world. Perhaps you've said it on here in a previous post and I missed it, so I apologize for that; nonetheless, I'm still curious.

God has given us this amazing world full of wonder and awe to glorify Him. There is nothing wrong with learning about the different geological ages of the earth or gazing at the planets with a telescope and learn all about them as long as we do it to praise God, not in an effort to prove (by defective reasoning) that He doesn't exist; unfortunately, it seems like that is part of the aim of science, much to its detriment [though of course the scientific world promotes that its effort is not at all to prove or disprove God--which is definitely the truth as I'm quite sure it's main goal is the betterment of society--nevertheless, it seems to be that many atheists utilize the facts which science has discerned from the world in their arguments for how there is no God (or at least that the God of the Bible does not exist)].

Also, I don't find science cold and confining but a very wonderful blessing God has allowed us out of His love for us which has provided people with many things which make for much worldly comfort. I can't understand why science seems to be anti-God of the Bible. Yet I'm mystified by what I see as the unnecessary war that seems to be raging between the physical and spiritual world. It seems that when the one is satisfied, it causes the other to die.

It certainly does seem that throughout the ages, when there seemed to be a dearth of materialistic comfort then there seemed to be more spiritual satisfaction. Then you get to ages in time when there was more materialistic comfort (by whatever means God has arranged it, by science or something else), then you see this exodus of people falling away from God. Personally, I'm not seeking to lose material comfort, but if it came to a choice I hope that God will give me the strength and grace to choose that which is spiritually satisfying over that which comforts the physical body, knowing that such a choice would probably mean quite a deconstruction of the physical life I know now.

Im glad to read you went way beyond just appreciating our ad hoc Creation to focusing on the personal Creator . My experience was the same even as 'an Atheist' in that I appreciated the obvious design and engineering of whats required for Earth to be here (even the precise mass of our entire universe is necessary Cosmologists are concluding) ... yet I kept the Creator at arms length because I didn't want to be owned nor did I want MY life choices messed with . Finally, I surrendered to Christ and know I experience my ultimate reason for being here as well as marvel at the Creation daily . That an honor to be alive on this planet spinning at 1002 mph and heading thru space at 66,000 mph knowing it is all in the very capable loving hands of an Unlimited powerful Creator whom im going to spend eternity with one day and soon. It puts a whole new perspective on life doesn't it ? I went from having a defeatist attitude to having real hope and joy of things yet to come. To GOD be the glory of it all and for my personal salvation.

 

[SharonL]

Spirit and Truth - beautiful story about the birdcage.

Stating the feeling that I would have if my family did not believe. If you do not believe you will never know the feeling of desperation of knowing that your loved ones may be lost for eternity. They pull away because it hurts so much.

As a Christian we are promised eternity with Jesus and knowing that our loved ones would miss out on this would be more than I could endure and pulling away is their way of dealing with the hurt.

All you can do is love her because she will never give up on praying for you to become a part of her life that she holds very precious.

Having the love of God in your heart gives you the longing for others to share in this faith. The Bible even tells us to bring the love of God to others and if they don't listen to dust off your shoes and move on (I'm paraphrasing) - This is to not let the temptation of unbelievers beliefs rub off on a believer and is God's protection for us.

Just love her and know that her pulling away is desperation and fear - she has a secure future for eternity with Jesus and knows unless you change your faith that you will not be part of it. This is just normal actions to protect the heart from being broken.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

How about imagination? I am an atheist, but that does not restrain my creativity. Sure, anything we can prove to exist is what most atheists believe exists, but that does not mean we cannot enjoy reading about the gods of the ancient Greeks, or gain morals and values from Christianity. The vastness and beauty of the universe as it is leaves me in awe, as you realize we are not even a speck of dust in the wind by comparison. Our existence is glorious with or without some distant deity, but some people cannot seem to accept just being a small part of our universe, and have to believe that it was all created for us to feel special. And that, my friends, is the epitome of pride and narcissism. Even the bible places us at the center of the universe. Isn't life grand enough that we can live with being a random event? But that whole debate has left me seeing humanity at its worst, as the issue of religion leaves everyone to discard common human decency because they cannot allow other people to have a different view than themselves and coexist. I may not have any faith in god, but that is not the reason why I am losing my faith in humanity.

When you take a look at just what is required for us to be on this lspinning planet, it is very very humbling indeed. We are a heck of a lot more than a speck of dust or a graduated animal looking to fulfill its own needs ; when you consider the actual mass of the entire Universe has to be exactly as it is, add to that over 150 extremely narrow design constants .. some to the 120th power maximum deviancy otherwise we aren't here, plus our physics and chemical and mathematical laws all working together flawlessly....it is no reason that many atheist and agnostic Scientists, particularly Astro Physicists, have abandoned the notion that 'we are accidental' and the 'cosmos was pure luck' . The more One chooses to explore this creation, the more One has to make excuses for not admitting there is a masterful intelligent personal Architect for the incredible personal intelligent effects leftover for all to observe .

Yes, creativity can be had apart from admitting God exists...but you cant justify non physical entities such as our creativity, morals, will, emotions, reason, rationale, and abstract thinking...coming from materials / hydrogen / helium / planets / mass and the like. To be a real Atheist, requires far more faith than what a Theist requires. In fact, the Atheist has to borrow from the theistic worldview to try and make his/her view credible (such as reason, etc..)

We can and should allow whatever another chooses to believe in , but I see nothing at all wrong with challenging someone elses religion whether it be secular or Creator-based . Afterall, we should be able to defend our Beliefs if we hold fast to them as the truth, and if not, then perhaps they are believed in for something other reason and motive .

 

[seashale76]

How on earth did this thread take a turn from helping the OP attempt to understand her daughter to this?

 

[elliott95]

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[moerunamida]

CaryW, I hope all is well with you and that you are finding some answers you are looking for

 

[dhh712]

God is practically screaming at Mankind that he is real, and hopes we will come to enter into a dynamic personal relationship with him. Between our Creation and the historical Jesus Christ....hes gone way beyond trying to reach us. Its up to us to return the ball that's now in our court. Returned love to God is something No One will ever be regretful for doing.

Personally, I feel arrogance is at the root of it. I know it was for me though I wouldn't have admitted it at the time. I didn't want to be seen as a bible-thumping fool who got deluded into believing fairy-tales. I wanted the respect of learned individuals. I didn't feel I was being arrogant, just that I was using that which I had, my rational mind; and to me, God didn't add up and a good part of it was that there were too many bad things in the world like diseases as someone had mentioned.

A few of my family members think I'm a bible-thumping fool now; thankfully, the relationship I've graciously been given to have with God and my gratitude for everything He's done for me is worth far more than their opinions of me.

 

[CaryW]

I'm back, I haven't check this forum in a week or so, and it did get a bit off topic, but I think the question of science vs. religion is very relevant to me. I still see that as one of the major reasons I can't believe in a God. I'm not sure I should really be calling it "science", I see it more like "reality". Going back and reading some of the past posts, here are some things that really strike me as key points:

Oi-antz, when talking about miracles, writes: "But, if technology is capable of turning water to wine one day, then can't you assume that God has the ability to do that too? All I am saying is that your experience (or lack thereof) does not nullify someone else's experience."

This is exactly what I mean when I say a belief in God would mean radically changing how I understand reality. Water cannot turn into wine without magic. Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, those atoms cannot just change their form to become the atoms that form alcohol molecules and the other substances that make up wine. Water can only change into something that is made up of only hydrogen and oxygen. What you're saying is that God has the ability to tear apart atoms into subatomic particles and rearrange them into the exact atoms and molecules to make wine. That's just too far removed from reality to be believable. Especially when it makes perfect sense that the water-into-wine story is just that, a story, a myth, meant to be a metaphor to show the greatness of Christ.

TheyCallMeDavid: sorry, but the statistics you posted only illustrate a complete misunderstanding of probability. The earth already existed before life formed, so you can't look at the odds of it being the way it is that way. Think of it this way, if you roll a dice ten times you get a string of numbers, for example, 2,6 3,6,4,2,2,1,4,3, the odds of rolling that exact string of numbers is very, very small. But I already rolled them, so the probability that I rolled that string of numbers is 1, or 100%, because we know it already happened. All those figure you quote about the earth work the same way. Our planet formed with all those qualities, the dice have already been rolled, that's why it's so hospitable for life as we know it.

Thank you all again for posting on this thread, I really have been reading them all and trying to understand, but I don't always have the time to respond to everyone. A part of me is definitely saying, "maybe my daughter is onto something and I should explore her beliefs", but I still feel I'm mostly hitting a brick wall. The only one who's responded here that really makes sense to me is PsychoSarah, who also claims to be an atheist.

 

[CaryW]

Short, timely piece:

[My wife and I are atheists, but our daughter wants to be baptised Catholic | James Harrington | theguardian.com[/url]

I actually already read this because I saw in on another source (it showed up on the app, Zite, that I have on my phone). It seemed a bit absurd to me that the parent send their kid to a catholic school then act surprised when she wants to be baptized. The poor kid just wants to fit in with her peers, I think the parents are fooling themselves when they say she has thought long and hard about her faith, I think she's probably just feeling a lot of peer pressure.

In my situation, I never tried to hide my kids from religion, but now I feel like I should have discussed religion and my own beliefs with them more when they were young. My daughter's best friend in elementary school was from a Christian family and she did occasionally go to church with them. She also went to before-school Mormon seminary with some other friends for a few months in high school (we live in Utah, so this is very normal), but I would never would have sent her to a religious school.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Good to see you back, Cary

I

Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, those atoms cannot just change their form to become the atoms that form alcohol molecules and the other substances that make up wine. Water can only change into something that is made up of only hydrogen and oxygen. What you're saying is that God has the ability to tear apart atoms into subatomic particles and rearrange them into the exact atoms and molecules to make wine. That's just too far removed from reality to be believable.

Well, if God created the atoms out of subatomic particles in the first place, created the rules by which they operate, and so on ... why couldn't He in fact?

Not trying to give you a hard time or mock you, but ... if He IS the Creator, then He did just that, so it would follow that it COULD be reasonable.

Look at how much "reality" has changed in the past 200 years? What we've learned? Those things have always been true, we just didn't understand them before. Who is to say that in another 200 years, we couldn't easily rearrange sub-atomic particles to create different elements and recombine them?

How far fetched is that, compared to the way in which our current knowledge and abilities would appear to people 200 years ago?

I daresay they would see much of our science as "magic" or "miracles".

 

[paul1149]

It seemed a bit absurd to me that the parent send their kid to a catholic school then act surprised when she wants to be baptized. The poor kid just wants to fit in with her peers, I think the parents are fooling themselves when they say she has thought long and hard about her faith, I think she's probably just feeling a lot of peer pressure.

How exactly do you know all that? Or for that matter, any of that? IIRC, the article said there was only one religion lesson per week, which is a pretty thin gruel. (When I attended RC grade school, we had religion every day, top of the morning, so things have obviously changed). The author was explicit when he described the clarity of the position his daughter took.

You may be correct, it certainly is possible, but I don't see what basis you have for your opinion. Would you not think that these intelligent, very committed atheist parents would have probed the angle of peer pressure, to prevent their daughter from making a mistake for emotional reasons? Have you thought this through non-prejudicially? If not, perhaps you need to examine your own motivations toward the subject. You may find the answer to how to better relate to your daughter there.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Personally, I feel arrogance is at the root of it. I know it was for me though I wouldn't have admitted it at the time. I didn't want to be seen as a bible-thumping fool who got deluded into believing fairy-tales. I wanted the respect of learned individuals. I didn't feel I was being arrogant, just that I was using that which I had, my rational mind; and to me, God didn't add up and a good part of it was that there were too many bad things in the world like diseases as someone had mentioned.

A few of my family members think I'm a bible-thumping fool now; thankfully, the relationship I've graciously been given to have with God and my gratitude for everything He's done for me is worth far more than their opinions of me.

Yes, I can relate to your story. Same for me. WHen I came to understand that many very intelligent famous people became Christians because of the evidence, it was then that I felt a desire to move forward and really check it out . The fact of Gods existence is the ONLY thing that makes sense in light of our obvious ad hoc Universe/Solar System/Human Anatomy, DNA, etc... to try and make up excuses that it doesn't require a Master architect and engineer...is akin to taking delivery of a new car thinking that it took many sticks of dynamite exploding in a materials warehouse to produce the finished product ------ and a car is far far far less complicated than our Cosmos or even just our Human Anatomy and what it goes thru in operation for each and every day. In fact , our DNA molecules are wrought with intelligent messages of instruction to get the job done perfectly . The language of God , for , where else can such messages come from other than a separate independent intelligent Source (?) But to the willful 'atheist', no amount of complexity , order, or amazing operation of anything....would ever be enough ; to them...it is only going to take a face to face meeting (which is scheduled for the future to clear up the matter once and for all) .

 

[elliott95]

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[Scott1979]

I agree. Just because someone doesn't believe what you do doesn't make them arrogant.