Help me understand my Christian daughter

[aiki]

Myths are incredibly powerful, just because something is not literally true, does not mean that it is worthless. Consider the state of the world during the time the bible was written, for the most part it was a pre-literate society, so how were knowledge and information passed from one person to the next? The answer is, through stories, and to make those stories have more of an impression on us and to make the lessons more memorable, things are exaggerated and made fancier. Every culture has it's folk tales, and while they may be written as if they are factual, they all contain things that sound like magic, or talking animals, or something that is inconsistent with what we know of the physical world.

You're making many assumptions here about the Bible and the stories recounted in it. Among texts of its kind the Bible is extraordinarily factual/historical. There have been many instances now where the Bible was thought to be in error about historical claims it made only to be eventually proved to be quite correct. One article on the historicity of Scripture points out:

[FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva]Biblical Cities Attested Archaeologically.[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva] In addition to Jericho, places such as Haran, Hazor, Dan, Megiddo, Shechem, Samaria, Shiloh, Gezer, Gibeah, Beth Shemesh, Beth Shean, Beersheba, Lachish, and many other urban sites have been excavated, quite apart from such larger and obvious locations as Jerusalem or Babylon. Such geographical markers are extremely significant in demonstrating that [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva]fact[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva], not [/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva]fantasy[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva],[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms, geneva]is intended in the Old Testament historical narratives; otherwise, the specificity regarding these urban sites would have been replaced by “Once upon a time” narratives with only hazy geographical parameters, if any.[/FONT]

Another article lists a number of the instances where persons and places mentioned in the Bible were proved to be quite historically accurate:

The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep&#8221 in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.

• The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
• Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
• It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
• Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.

Clearly, the Bible is not merely a collection of fanciful tales meant only to communicate principles and moral lessons. The Bible communicates historical fact, which is something archaeologists have relied upon now for many, many years.

When I read stories in the bible, I can't help noticing how similar they are to the myths of other cultures.

Well, you may need to read more carefully. The Bible is quite distinct from other religious texts in its level of historical accuracy.

So when I read that Jesus turned water into wine, rather than trying to somehow convince myself that God can transform one element into another, the logical explanation is that this is an exaggeration, or a bit of fiction added to the story to make a certain point or to explain a lesson we are supposed to learn from the story.

This is a form of begging the question. You impose naturalistic presuppositions upon the biblical narrative and therefore assume the supernatural accounts of the Bible must be fiction. It seems to me, though, that supernatural/miraculous events would quite naturally mark the actions of God. It would be bizarre for Jesus to proclaim he was divine and then act in a perfectly mundane way. Such a claim to deity would necessarily require proof! And Jesus produced such proof again and again. This seems perfectly plausible to me...

So I guess I am suggesting that you are reading it wrong if you are taking everything in the bible as literal truth. Certainly you don't take everything in the bible as literal truth, do you?

Only when the context indicates that I should.

Selah.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Myths and legends can't be formed by the same generation that experienced the real thing. The New Testament came from the original Apostles and others living in the same generation. There wasn't time for the stories to change and evolve as legends and other "myths" do.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Thank you all who have responded, I wish I could say it has helped, but the truth is I just feel like I'm at a total road block to understanding what you mean. I just can't get over the hump of believing in something that has no evidence and cannot be observed and tested. Eternal life and supreme beings just don't fit into everything I understand about reality.

I think Talitha hit on exactly why I feel so frustrated when she said this: "When we find the love of God, it's like everything finally comes together and makes sense."

I have never felt this, I can't even comprehend what this might feel like, and I can't see any kind of logical path that lead me to feel that way. I have read and tried to understand part of the bible, but what I see in the bible is stories. Stories like the birdcage story. Certainly these stories are important and can help us lead better, more fulfilling lives, but they are still stories, just because a story says I can have everlasting life doesn't mean it can really happen.

Just a suggestion.

Have you ever tried going to church with your daughter, if possible, or to any good church nearby.

Try this for about a year.

If you feel you can, also pray to God to reveal to you that He does indeed exist and to show you the way.

As to science or atheism having disproven God, if you want I could discuss this with you. I firmly believe that such is not the case. In fact I believe that the only scientific conclusion is that God does exist.

Here is what the word of God says.

Romans 1:19-20
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[AvgJoe]

Thank you all who have responded, I wish I could say it has helped, but the truth is I just feel like I'm at a total road block to understanding what you mean. I just can't get over the hump of believing in something that has no evidence and cannot be observed and tested. Eternal life and supreme beings just don't fit into everything I understand about reality.

I think Talitha hit on exactly why I feel so frustrated when she said this: "When we find the love of God, it's like everything finally comes together and makes sense."

I have never felt this, I can't even comprehend what this might feel like, and I can't see any kind of logical path that lead me to feel that way. I have read and tried to understand part of the bible, but what I see in the bible is stories. Stories like the birdcage story. Certainly these stories are important and can help us lead better, more fulfilling lives, but they are still stories, just because a story says I can have everlasting life doesn't mean it can really happen.

CaryW, I don't know if you're still checking this thread, as it's been awhile since any new posts have been added to it but I'm going to post what I have anyway. I wanted to share an article with you, titled, "Science And Faith: Enemies Or Friends?" The premise of the article is that science and faith are friends and that the much hyped conflict between faith and science is really a conflict between men of science and men of religion, rather than science and religion themselves.

Here is the link to the article~~~> Does God Exist? - Science and Faith: Enemies or Friends? - January/February 2014

The website, from which the article came (Does God Exist?), may be of help to you, as the purpose of the organization behind the website is to provide evidence to open-minded, thinking people that God does exist — that the Bible is his word and that science and belief in God are compatible. The author of this material is a former atheist who came to belief in God through science. He was a science teacher specializing in physics and earth science. It is our contention that those who deny the existence of God have either not seen the evidence, or have embraced bad science and/or bad theology in making science and faith enemies.

They also offer a free bi-monthly journal that is available on the website~~~> Does God Exist? - Home Page

I hope you find their material helpful.

 

[bdavison]

What is the appeal of Christian faith? By this I mean, what is she getting out of it that she couldn't just get from a loving family and friends?

You can travel to far off lands without a boat or plane, but the journey will be a hard long swim and the sharks will likely get you before you get there. I could stand next to you as a friend or even a family member shouting "I love you" at the top of my lungs while you swim, but it won't help much when you are about to be devoured. Love alone cannot save you from a tragic ending. You need a savior. You need someone who will rescue you.

What your daughter is finding in the christian faith, is first and foremost that she has a Savior. She has someone who will protect her, and keep her from being devoured. He will not fail in this task. Through her church family she finds fellowship with other people who have the same savior and will help her on her journey, call out to the savior on her behalf when she needs help. When the sharks come, she will be rescued....guarenteed.

Jesus stands before you, and is telling you that he will save you guarenteed, no payment necessary. No harm will come to you, IF you accept his gift.

How do Christians find a way to make science and religion compatible? To me, any belief in the supernatural defies the basic foundation of science, I don't get how you can make them computable.

Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Boyle, Ray, Linnaeus, and Cuvier were all Christians, even Einstein said "I want to know how God created this world. . . .I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." If these scientists all believed in God, certainly the foundations of science that they layed forth do not defy a belief in God.

I see a lot of talk about how "Jesus loves us" and "God gave his only son to save us from our sins", but I don't really understand what this means. Sure, it's nice to be loved and I feel gratitude for someone making a sacrifice for me, but why is that love more special than love from family and friends? How can someone else sacrifice themself for my sins? That just doesn't make sense, aren't I responsible for myself? It just don't understand why that's such a big deal.

Think of the soldier that layed out across a grenade for his friends. He sacrificed his life so that others could live. Just like those soldiers, you are doomed to a most certain and horrible death, and Jesus comes running forward and jumps on that grenade so that you can live.

The big deal is that as a sinner apart from God we have no standing with God. We cannot plead our case, justify our actions, ask for protection, we have nothing to offer God in exchange for his recognition, peace, understanding, wisdom, favor, etc. There isn't enough in you to pay the debt of sin in your heart. We start this life on the devil's side. How are you going to cross over? What could you possibly offer God that is valuable enough to buy your way into heaven? What do your friends or family have that could pay that debt? The debt in your heart alone is so overwhelming that NOTHING is sufficient except for Christ.

ONLY through Christ's sacrifice, can your debt be payed in full. God himself gave up His own Son who was willing to take your deserved punishment for your debts, so that you can be spared.

Jesus says "For God so loved the world (that's you) that he gave his one and only son (his own child), so that whoever believes in Him (you believe in His Son) will not perish (you won't suffer an eternity of punishment for your debt of sin) but have eternal life (your debt will be payed, you will be rescued, you can live for eternity under his loving arms)."

No man has ever reached it without Jesus Christ and he never will.

Those that deny this sacrifice, or choose not to believe will suffer their deserved punishment. Their debt will not be forgiven and they will suffer the punishment for eternity. Cast out, tormented day and night with no hope of rescue for all time.

Oh, I pray you don't suffer that fate. I wish I had something that would satisfy your debt, which I would gladly give. But I can't. It's only through Christ and His sacrifice that you can be saved.

Call out to Him, ask Him for forgiveness, turn to Him and believe in His sacrifice, and join your daughter as a rescued soul no longer threatened by a debt you cannot pay on your own.

 

[bdavison]

Thank you all who have responded, I wish I could say it has helped, but the truth is I just feel like I'm at a total road block to understanding what you mean. I just can't get over the hump of believing in something that has no evidence and cannot be observed and tested. Eternal life and supreme beings just don't fit into everything I understand about reality.

I think Talitha hit on exactly why I feel so frustrated when she said this: "When we find the love of God, it's like everything finally comes together and makes sense."

I have never felt this, I can't even comprehend what this might feel like, and I can't see any kind of logical path that lead me to feel that way. I have read and tried to understand part of the bible, but what I see in the bible is stories. Stories like the birdcage story. Certainly these stories are important and can help us lead better, more fulfilling lives, but they are still stories, just because a story says I can have everlasting life doesn't mean it can really happen.

Seriously, tell Him that. Tell Him, "I don't know you, I don't understand you, I have so many questions. But I'm acting on that, and I want to know you. I want to understand you, help me to know you. Reveal your truth to me, show me who you are."

Also, read His word, the Bible. He will answer a lot of your questions in there.

 

[TheJust]

Some quick background: I was raised with only minimal religion, raised my own two kids without religion, and now consider myself an atheist. My daughter, now a college junior, started attending Christian churches when she started college and now considers herself a Christian, to the extent that she got baptized last fall and is now engaged to her Christian boyfriend. I desperately want to talk to her about her religious beliefs and understand what she's getting out of it, but I fear she's already pulling away for her family and the last thing I want to do is push her away even more. So I've come here to get some of my questions answered and gain some understanding of her beliefs.

Then I'll throw out a few questions:
What is the appeal of Christian faith? By this I mean, what is she getting out of it that she couldn't just get from a loving family and friends?

How do Christians find a way to make science and religion compatible? To me, any belief in the supernatural defies the basic foundation of science, I don't get how you can make them computable.

I see a lot of talk about how "Jesus loves us" and "God gave his only son to save us from our sins", but I don't really understand what this means. Sure, it's nice to be loved and I feel gratitude for someone making a sacrifice for me, but why is that love more special than love from family and friends? How can someone else sacrifice themself for my sins? That just doesn't make sense, aren't I responsible for myself? It just don't understand why that's such a big deal.

Thanks for listening! I hope to start a dialogue and post more questions as they come up

You need to accept the fact that God is real first of all, second you must realize that Christianity is like a harmless cult of psychopaths (please don't ban me for saying this, it is the truth) so treat her as you would a mentally challenged person and simply treat her with gentle kindness. I know the real God and therefore I'm aware he is rarely found in Christianity unfortunately.

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
Proverbs 17:27

 

[CaryW]

I have come back to read this a few times, and I do appreciate those of you who have taken the time to post here, so I hope I don't offend you by saying this, but the reason I haven't posted in so long is because what I'm reading here is just too crazy. It just makes me depressed and hopeless to think my dear daughter might be one of you. I have spend the last few month reading more about Christianity, atheism, and reading some of the articles you have suggested in this forum, and all I see is the same tired arguments over and over. I see people who so desperately want to believe that they come up with absurd justifications to make their beliefs compatable with the world around them.

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that the world is as we observe, measure and expiriance it. It is a belief that we are not living in some kind of Matrix, like the movie, but we are living in the world we see every day. Believing in a god would be giving up reality. No matter how much I go to church, read the bible, pretend to be Christian or pray, giving up reality would be like giving up breathing, it just not physically possible. I know in my heart there is no God, I know when I pray that I'm just talking to the walls, and as much as I love my daughter, I can't change who I am for her. I can't continually pretend to be someone I'm not for her. If you truely love someone, sometimes you have to let them go. I would rather see her live a happy life without me in it than have an unhappy life with me (but, of course, what I want most of all is to see her lead a happy life with me in it!). But that doesn't mean it doesn't break my heart to see her slipping farther and farther away from me.

She's getting married in a little over a month and I'm absolutely dreading the wedding. I think she's making a huge mistake, but I'm afraid to say anything for fear of driving her away from me even more. I'm not sure if I can handle standing there in front of my family and so many strangers who want to get to know me, forcing a smile, as I watch her abandon her old family to join a new one. I always though my kids would just be ADDING to their family when they got married, but she's marrying into a family that's not going to be compatable with her old family. As much as I will try to be tolerant and accepting, I know that inevitably she is going to have to choose sides, and I know which side she's going to choose. I miss her so much already.

 

[talitha]

You have an amazingly clear perception, I must say. But what I'm reading between the lines is that you would rather lose your closest relationship than admit that you might possibly be wrong. Actually, as a Christian, I must admit that I feel pretty much the same way. I am convinced that Jesus is the way, the Son of the Creator, crucified for me, and nothing and no one can convince me that He is not. I went through the searching thing when I was in my twenties and at one time thought I could not ever again believe in God. For me it was an act of abject humility to entertain the thought that my intellect could be cheating me out of the greatest joy possible. But when I truly entertained that thought, it wasn't long before the Lord met me. I'm not going back. I truly hope that the end of this wrestling match of yours will be that you come into relationship with God through Jesus - not for your daughter's sake, but for your own.

 

[CaryW]

I would have no problem admitting I was wrong, I just need some reason to believe I might be wrong. In some ways, I think that's what I was looking for here, a way to make Christianity fit in with reality, but I didn't find it. What I did find was people like you who have such confidence in their faith that they are certain they will never change. I think it's time I accept the fact the my daughter may feel the same way. So instead of trying to "figure out" Christianity, I should be focussing on finding common ground with her and keeping our relationship from falling apart even more. So I'm posting some new questions:

I'm wondering if any of you have close family members and friends who are non-believers or practice other religions, and how do you feel about them?

One thing I find very troubling is the thought that our different beliefs might make her think less of me or that she fears I won't go to heaven because I haven't been saved, like she has. How do I convince her that I, and much of the rest of her family, are just fine?

How is the best way to deal with divisive social issues?

The church she attends is decidedly pro-life and she is beginning to show signs that she agrees with them. I don't think she has a clue how offensive this viewpoint is to most of us. There does not seem to be any middle ground on this issue, so I'm not sure how to bring it up without upsetting her, but I'm also not willing to let her get away with denying basic biology and calling one of her most beloved family members a murderer.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Cary, it is good to see you have come back to talk some more. If you remember, I did ask you a question in my last post to you, which may or may not give you a reason to admit you are wrong. Would you mind reviewing that question and letting me know what your thoughts are?

I would have no problem admitting I was wrong, I just need some reason to believe I might be wrong. In some ways, I think that's what I was looking for here, a way to make Christianity fit in with reality, but I didn't find it. What I did find was people like you who have such confidence in their faith that they are certain they will never change. I think it's time I accept the fact the my daughter may feel the same way. So instead of trying to "figure out" Christianity, I should be focussing on finding common ground with her and keeping our relationship from falling apart even more. So I'm posting some new questions:

I'm wondering if any of you have close family members and friends who are non-believers or practice other religions, and how do you feel about them?

My sister does not believe in Christianity. She likes some Buddhist philosophies. There is a level of resentment there that makes me feel that it is better not to force it down her throat. I know her heart values righteousness, so I guess the reason she is bitter at Christianity is due to some objectionable ideas that she associates with Christianity. I don't believe she has any personal resentment against Jesus or God, so I believe that if she is to see Jesus in His glory then she will probably love Him. Not everyone who lacks faith would respond that way, but some would. So I don't want to aggravate the wound, whatever has caused it, by making the stereotype she has chosen be something that she thinks has turned her brother on her. I would rather do as St Paul described, sow and water and let God give the increase. It does concern me when she expresses her resentment, because I know she is objecting to an image of Christ that isn't true.

One thing I find very troubling is the thought that our different beliefs might make her think less of me or that she fears I won't go to heaven because I haven't been saved, like she has. How do I convince her that I, and much of the rest of her family, are just fine?

You can tell her that you have no problem with Jesus, and should you find yourself in His presence in the context that Christianity describes, you will bend your knee and call Him your king. That is to have the same faith that every Christian has, but without the certainty of knowing that the event will happen. You are therefore pledging that you support Jesus, but you cannot be sure that there is life after death or that God is real until you have an experience that provides sufficient reason for you to believe it. How do you feel about that attitude? Is it something you would object to?

How is the best way to deal with divisive social issues?

In a fair way. Promote liberty and freedom and speak in support of everyone's best interests.

The church she attends is decidedly pro-life and she is beginning to show signs that she agrees with them. I don't think she has a clue how offensive this viewpoint is to most of us. There does not seem to be any middle ground on this issue, so I'm not sure how to bring it up without upsetting her, but I'm also not willing to let her get away with denying basic biology and calling one of her most beloved family members a murderer.

These attitudes are difficult, these are attitudes of intolerance. The problem is not actually the fact that someone would wish to abort, the problem is a social problem that robs the mother of hope for herself and for her child. Ideally an expectant mother would obtain the support required to give the child a fair go in life, but for some people who can't find sufficient support, a child could mean extreme poverty and a struggle to survive. So the problem is usually a problem of the society than the mother, and perhaps she would benefit to understand this and look to how she might be able to contribute to developing support networks for helpless mothers instead of condemning them. But there is only so much we can do. I do share your concern on this one. Abortion is tragic, and so is the wider social impact it has.

 

[Messy]

I would have no problem admitting I was wrong, I just need some reason to believe I might be wrong. In some ways, I think that's what I was looking for here, a way to make Christianity fit in with reality, but I didn't find it. What I did find was people like you who have such confidence in their faith that they are certain they will never change. I think it's time I accept the fact the my daughter may feel the same way. So instead of trying to "figure out" Christianity, I should be focussing on finding common ground with her and keeping our relationship from falling apart even more. So I'm posting some new questions:

I'm wondering if any of you have close family members and friends who are non-believers or practice other religions, and how do you feel about them?

One thing I find very troubling is the thought that our different beliefs might make her think less of me or that she fears I won't go to heaven because I haven't been saved, like she has. How do I convince her that I, and much of the rest of her family, are just fine?

How is the best way to deal with divisive social issues?

The church she attends is decidedly pro-life and she is beginning to show signs that she agrees with them. I don't think she has a clue how offensive this viewpoint is to most of us. There does not seem to be any middle ground on this issue, so I'm not sure how to bring it up without upsetting her, but I'm also not willing to let her get away with denying basic biology and calling one of her most beloved family members a murderer.

I was raised as an atheist. When all of a sudden my brother and I were saved and went to church and my mother who did believe, but never did anything with it went out to check it and stayed too, it was a bit too much for my dad. He still can't understand us, but it's much better now. We sometimes have conversations about things and he just understands we think different and I understand he thinks different, no problem. I only love him more since I got saved. I tested God out by the way for a year and asked for signs and when I was convinced that He existed, because everything happened, I went to church. I'm not at all worried that he doesn't get saved. We pray for him. If God can convince me, He can convince him. I shouldn't take it too personal that she's pro life. Of course she is pro life, I believe you have a spirit and soul immediately and if someone does abortion the kid goes to heaven. Since someone who does that isn't aware of that I wouldn't call them a murderer.

 

[talitha]

instead of trying to "figure out" Christianity, I should be focussing on finding common ground with her and keeping our relationship from falling apart even more. So I'm posting some new questions

Okay, I am glad..

I'm wondering if any of you have close family members and friends who are non-believers or practice other religions, and how do you feel about them?

One thing I find very troubling is the thought that our different beliefs might make her think less of me or that she fears I won't go to heaven because I haven't been saved, like she has. How do I convince her that I, and much of the rest of her family, are just fine?

My step-daughter is not a Christian; she is into other things, and her present earthly life is going fine, so she thinks she doesn't need God. She is an EXTREMELY intelligent, responsible, admirable, charitable person and a good mom, but when I think of where she is headed for eternity, it makes me very sad. I do NOT think less of her, nor do I "fear" that she won't go to Heaven. I simply know that she will not go to Heaven unless she receives Christ. If your daughter is truly a Christian, which it sounds like she is, you will not be able to convince her that you are just fine, because the fact is that you are not.

How is the best way to deal with divisive social issues?

The church she attends is decidedly pro-life and she is beginning to show signs that she agrees with them. I don't think she has a clue how offensive this viewpoint is to most of us. There does not seem to be any middle ground on this issue, so I'm not sure how to bring it up without upsetting her, but I'm also not willing to let her get away with denying basic biology and calling one of her most beloved family members a murderer.

You are right in your suspicion that there is no middle ground. As a Christian, your daughter will not be convinced that she is wrong about this or any other "divisive social issue", nor will your feelings of offense sway her convictions. Truth is not determined or changed by people's feelings; it is static, like a stone foundation, something to build a life upon. More than likely your daughter is not upset about her conviction nor about your offense, but she may be upset about your repeated efforts to convince her that she needs to change her belief. She is an adult, and your emotions are not tools to be used to punish her. If she uses the word "murderer" directly in reference to a beloved family member, she may need to develop some tact, but that comes with time as a Christian.

I think that it might help you to realize that Christians believe that ALL sins (lying, cheating, adultery, murder, theft, gossip, etc.) are forgiveable. To recognize something as a sin is really the first step to freedom from its grip. Recognizing that I was a sinner in need of redemption is what led me to the Cross for forgiveness, and a new life. To become a Christian we must realize that some things that we do are repulsive to God - okay, many things that we do - and then with that knowledge we are supposed to go to Him for forgiveness and healing and re-formation - so if I were to recognize that in the sight of God I am a murderer, then at that point I would have the motivation and the sense of urgency to go to Him and be made right. Perhaps that is what your daughter is hoping will happen.

blessings
tal

 

[seashale76]

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that the world is as we observe, measure and expiriance it. It is a belief that we are not living in some kind of Matrix, like the movie, but we are living in the world we see every day. Believing in a god would be giving up reality.

Except that atheism isn't what you're claiming it to be at all. You're projecting. Atheism is a lack of belief in any gods. That's it. Whatever your personal beliefs that got you there or that you tack on to that are just that- yours.

No matter how much I go to church, read the bible, pretend to be Christian or pray, giving up reality would be like giving up breathing, it just not physically possible. I know in my heart there is no God, I know when I pray that I'm just talking to the walls, and as much as I love my daughter, I can't change who I am for her. I can't continually pretend to be someone I'm not for her. If you truely love someone, sometimes you have to let them go. I would rather see her live a happy life without me in it than have an unhappy life with me (but, of course, what I want most of all is to see her lead a happy life with me in it!). But that doesn't mean it doesn't break my heart to see her slipping farther and farther away from me.

So- you're at the ultimatum stage. You will lose your daughter if you keep up this attitude- be she Christian or anything else. Do you realize you sound exactly the same way some believing parents do who go off the deep end when their kids become atheists?

She's getting married in a little over a month and I'm absolutely dreading the wedding. I think she's making a huge mistake, but I'm afraid to say anything for fear of driving her away from me even more. I'm not sure if I can handle standing there in front of my family and so many strangers who want to get to know me, forcing a smile, as I watch her abandon her old family to join a new one. I always though my kids would just be ADDING to their family when they got married, but she's marrying into a family that's not going to be compatable with her old family. As much as I will try to be tolerant and accepting, I know that inevitably she is going to have to choose sides, and I know which side she's going to choose. I miss her so much already.

I think you're being a little melodramatic, honestly. I'm sure you're familiar with the adage that you can't control other people you can only control how you react. Quit with the emotional manipulation and guilt tripping. I just get the feeling you're upset because you don't feel like you're in control any longer and your status quo has been upended. You can't bring back the past, you don't share your daughter's beliefs, you don't want to share her beliefs, but you want her to go back to how things were before. You speak of reality, but it seems you're having difficulty accepting that this is the reality you have to deal with.

 

[seashale76]

I would have no problem admitting I was wrong, I just need some reason to believe I might be wrong. In some ways, I think that's what I was looking for here, a way to make Christianity fit in with reality, but I didn't find it. What I did find was people like you who have such confidence in their faith that they are certain they will never change. I think it's time I accept the fact the my daughter may feel the same way. So instead of trying to "figure out" Christianity, I should be focussing on finding common ground with her and keeping our relationship from falling apart even more. So I'm posting some new questions:

I'm wondering if any of you have close family members and friends who are non-believers or practice other religions, and how do you feel about them?

I love them. I keep them in my prayers, the same way I do the believers in my life.

ETA- My sister, her husband, my husband's siblings (save one) and their spouses, two of my first cousins and their spouses, two of my uncles, an aunt, and a considerable amount of my friends are non-religious/non-believers.

One thing I find very troubling is the thought that our different beliefs might make her think less of me or that she fears I won't go to heaven because I haven't been saved, like she has. How do I convince her that I, and much of the rest of her family, are just fine?

If she thinks less of you, then that is her problem, and isn't part of the Christian faith anyway. In Orthodoxy, we don't go around claiming to be saved anyway, as we consider that this is a lifelong journey and we must endure to the end to be saved. You don't convince her of anything. If you ever become a believer, it isn't your daughter that will make you one, and there is nothing she could do to make it so.

How is the best way to deal with divisive social issues?

The church she attends is decidedly pro-life and she is beginning to show signs that she agrees with them. I don't think she has a clue how offensive this viewpoint is to most of us. There does not seem to be any middle ground on this issue, so I'm not sure how to bring it up without upsetting her, but I'm also not willing to let her get away with denying basic biology and calling one of her most beloved family members a murderer.

Did she call one of her most beloved family members a murderer? If you don't want to deal with divisive social issues then you simply refuse to talk about them.

Okay- I'm going to have to call you out on this one. How- exactly- is being pro-life denying basic biology? That makes no logical sense.

I consider myself pro-life. While I personally find the concept of abortion to be a serious thing which I think is way overused in our society, I don't think I should be the one calling the shots for others either. I absolutely think there should be a focus on teaching responsibility before it ever gets to the point of someone even considering abortion as an option. It's not an ideal option and should be viewed accordingly. If some are using abortion as their only means of birth control, then they need an intervention, in my opinion.

Pregnancy is an extremely unique situation when it comes to ethics. It's life, but it is symbiotic life. It is life that has the potential for becoming human- but there is NO doubt that life begins at conception. I believe that once a certain stage of development passes, it is undoubtedly murder. Viewed in this context- rape, incest, and the mother's life being endangered seem to be the most reasonable parameters- as while abortion is never ideal, it can be used if necessary.

I find it next to impossible to judge someone who has had an abortion- and think women who have need our compassion over anything else.

 

[CaryW]

Hi Cary, it is good to see you have come back to talk some more. If you remember, I did ask you a question in my last post to you, which may or may not give you a reason to admit you are wrong. Would you mind reviewing that question and letting me know what your thoughts are?

I think the question you are referring to is what I mean by saying God doesn't "fit" with my understanding of the real world. What I mean is that If I assume God does exist then there are too many unanswered questions and inconsistencies to be believable. Why did he create the world as he did? So that it appears to be millions of years old? So that animals appear to have evolved form earlier forms? Why did he create man so flawed? Why was he so active in biblical times, but seems to be absent today? I also don't see a loving god in the bible. I see a god who can turn water into wine to keep wedding guests happy, but won't help the starving children your church is praying for. I see a god who killed every living thing on the planet, save for one boatload of people and animals. A god who told people to rape and murder. I god who wanted to keep man from gaining knowledge. How is this a loving god, worthy of praise? When I look around me I see a world that makes sense, that can be explained. We certainly don't know all the answers, but we continue to learn more about our world, and the universe it exists, in every day, and none of it relies on magic.

You can tell her that you have no problem with Jesus, and should you find yourself in His presence in the context that Christianity describes, you will bend your knee and call Him your king. That is to have the same faith that every Christian has, but without the certainty of knowing that the event will happen. You are therefore pledging that you support Jesus, but you cannot be sure that there is life after death or that God is real until you have an experience that provides sufficient reason for you to believe it. How do you feel about that attitude? Is it something you would object to?

Yes, this is something I would object to, because it would be a lie. As much as I love my daughter, I can not lie to her in order to make her feel better. It would be immoral to do so, and I would hope she would respect this and not wish to be lied to.

 

[CaryW]

Okay, I am glad..

If your daughter is truly a Christian, which it sounds like she is, you will not be able to convince her that you are just fine, because the fact is that you are not.

Thank you for being honest, Talitha, the truth hurts, but you are right, I need to accept it.

 

[CaryW]

So- you're at the ultimatum stage. You will lose your daughter if you keep up this attitude- be she Christian or anything else. Do you realize you sound exactly the same way some believing parents do who go off the deep end when their kids become atheists?

Yes, I do realize that I sound exactly like a Christian parent whoes child becomes an atheist. And that is exactly why I'm spilling my guts HERE instead of to her face. That is exactly why I'm searching for ways to understand her better, so I don't completely drive her away. I may feel exactly the disappointment and heartbreak of those other parents, but I WILL NOT kick her out of my house or shun her like some of them do.

 

[aiki]

I have come back to read this a few times, and I do appreciate those of you who have taken the time to post here, so I hope I don't offend you by saying this, but the reason I haven't posted in so long is because what I'm reading here is just too crazy. It just makes me depressed and hopeless to think my dear daughter might be one of you.

Well, not to offend, of course, but I feel the same way about atheists. It makes me sad to see how strongly deluded atheists are about the matter of God.

I have spend the last few month reading more about Christianity, atheism, and reading some of the articles you have suggested in this forum, and all I see is the same tired arguments over and over.

I have talked with atheists many times and have heard again and again their tired, often irrational, rhetoric in favour of their beliefs. Funny how we can have the same experience but from different sides of the issue.

I see people who so desperately want to believe that they come up with absurd justifications to make their beliefs compatable with the world around them.

See, again, this is pretty much how I view atheists. We're the same in this - but different.

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that the world is as we observe, measure and expiriance it.

No, this is not atheism. Atheism is simply the belief that God does not exist. Confidence in reality being, in fact, truly real is not the possession solely of atheists.

It is a belief that we are not living in some kind of Matrix, like the movie, but we are living in the world we see every day. Believing in a god would be giving up reality.

To be blunt, this is silly - and obnoxious. Essentially, you're implying that Christians are out of touch with reality. Are you saying, then, that we are all insane? It seems like it. How is this sort of rhetoric not inflammatory and offensive?

In any case, the facts of the matter are very much the opposite of what you say. Some of the greatest scientists of the last 200 years or so (Linnaeus, Keppler, Mendel, Joule, Pasteur, etc) have been theists. But how could this be possible if their belief in God puts them out of touch with reality? Quite obviously, it doesn't.

No matter how much I go to church, read the bible, pretend to be Christian or pray, giving up reality would be like giving up breathing, it just not physically possible.

But this is a false tension you've erected between theism and reality. Christianity does not require the giving up of reality. Instead, it provides a greater understanding of it.

I know in my heart there is no God, I know when I pray that I'm just talking to the walls, and as much as I love my daughter, I can't change who I am for her.

But aren't you the one who, as an atheist, is claiming the rational high ground? What does "know in my heart" have to do with rationality? You sound rather a lot like many Christians I know when you use such a phrase.

I can't continually pretend to be someone I'm not for her. If you truely love someone, sometimes you have to let them go. I would rather see her live a happy life without me in it than have an unhappy life with me (but, of course, what I want most of all is to see her lead a happy life with me in it!). But that doesn't mean it doesn't break my heart to see her slipping farther and farther away from me.

THis is all very dramatic, but it is quite unnecessary. Why can you not simply agree to disagree? This is what adults do. I have friends who are atheists and we get along fine. Why can't you? THere is no law written on the fabric of the universe which says that an atheist and a theist cannot co-exist peaceably.

She's getting married in a little over a month and I'm absolutely dreading the wedding. I think she's making a huge mistake, but I'm afraid to say anything for fear of driving her away from me even more. I'm not sure if I can handle standing there in front of my family and so many strangers who want to get to know me, forcing a smile, as I watch her abandon her old family to join a new one.

Perhaps this is the core of your angst, not your daughter's theism.

I always though my kids would just be ADDING to their family when they got married, but she's marrying into a family that's not going to be compatable with her old family. As much as I will try to be tolerant and accepting, I know that inevitably she is going to have to choose sides, and I know which side she's going to choose. I miss her so much already.

It may come as a surprise to you, but it is very likely that your daughter is not framing things in her mind in the drastic, accept-my-beliefs-or-abandon-me way that you are. But you may well push her to do so by the way that you're carrying on.

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Some quick background: I was raised with only minimal religion, raised my own two kids without religion, and now consider myself an atheist. My daughter, now a college junior, started attending Christian churches when she started college and now considers herself a Christian, to the extent that she got baptized last fall and is now engaged to her Christian boyfriend. I desperately want to talk to her about her religious beliefs and understand what she's getting out of it, but I fear she's already pulling away for her family and the last thing I want to do is push her away even more. So I've come here to get some of my questions answered and gain some understanding of her beliefs.

Then I'll throw out a few questions:
What is the appeal of Christian faith? By this I mean, what is she getting out of it that she couldn't just get from a loving family and friends?

How do Christians find a way to make science and religion compatible? To me, any belief in the supernatural defies the basic foundation of science, I don't get how you can make them computable.

I see a lot of talk about how "Jesus loves us" and "God gave his only son to save us from our sins", but I don't really understand what this means. Sure, it's nice to be loved and I feel gratitude for someone making a sacrifice for me, but why is that love more special than love from family and friends? How can someone else sacrifice themself for my sins? That just doesn't make sense, aren't I responsible for myself? It just don't understand why that's such a big deal.

Thanks for listening! I hope to start a dialogue and post more questions as they come up

I would say start by reading the bible, then you will have a better understanding of what people like your daughter believe in.