Hell's Population Clock

[ClementofA]

1 Corinthians 6:9a Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Yup. Not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, but become [as all shall be] righteous "in Christ":

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist

 

[WebersHome]

-
Christ is often thought of as a pacifist. But the fact of the matter is, Christ and the fearsome God of the Old Testament are in total agreement.

● John 10:30 . . I and my Father are one.

In other words; Christ would never disapprove of the Flood, nor of the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah. In point of fact, had Christ been on hand for those events, he would have been only too happy to lend a hand.

● John 8:29 . . He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.

It's puzzled me why Christ's enemies weren't more afraid of him because when you think about it: if he could cure blindness, then he could just as easily cause it, and if he could cure paralysis, then he could just as easily cause that too; and if he could cure the deaf and the dumb, then he could just as easily take away the ability to speak and hear; and if he could feed thousands, then he could just as easily starve thousands; and if he could calm a storm, then he could just as easily generate a storm; and if he could replace a severed ear, then he could just as easily take an ear off; and if he could turn water into wine, then he could just as easily turn water into acid; and if he could exorcise demons, then he could just as easily muster demons for wide-spread possession.

The first time Christ came, he came as a victim; the next time he will come as a conqueror. One day out ahead, Christ is taking the reins of this planet, and his administration will be neither soft hearted nor soft headed.

● Ps 2:9-12 . .You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery. Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve The Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

Some time ago I noticed that the law Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy contains no stipulations for plea bargaining, imprisonment, or appeals-- justice is swift and some of its punishments are what we today in our sophisticated society would call cruel and unusual; plus capital punishment is ordered for quite a variety of violations. There is no such thing as a life sentence in that law. Those that would otherwise deserve it, are simply put to death.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 133 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,077,090 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

/

 

[SBC]

-
According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of June 19, 2017 @ 07:02 pm New York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 325,271,936 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,234 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,670 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 111 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 55 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.

Using the ratio of 2,670 condemned souls per 325,271,936 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,398,439,461 people, would suggest something like 60,730 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 2,530 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 20 hours and 47 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 02:47 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.

Christianity's hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, protests, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, Obamacare, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's wall.

If Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.

/

Interesting commentary.

General guesswork estimates about 110 Billion people have been born on this earth.
And the general world's surface is nearly 200,000,000 sq miles (30% land, 70% water),
and there will be no more seas, and only certain people will have forever life and occupancy upon the earth. I would wildly guess, that when the population of the faithful reaches an equal amount to fill the earth, according to how much land each individual will possess, the time clock as we know it will be anew. And all the millions of souls in hell, agreeably out numbering the faithful, will be but ash, purified, eternally separated from God and remembered no more.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[SBC]

="WebersHome, post: 71933671, member: 398053"]-
Christ is often thought of as a pacifist. But the fact of the matter is, Christ and his Father are in total agreement.

Agree.
The fact is: some people are uninformed;

Rev 6
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

"And what about judgment? "In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent's head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God's revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)...[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment..in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, 'I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope' -- words pregnant with suggestion."

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture

"Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Pour her a double portion from her own cup" (Rev.18:6)

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." (1 Jn.1:5)

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (Js.1:17)

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[Soyeong]

I'd hate to imagine what daylight savings does to Hell's population clock.

 

[SBC]

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

"And what about judgment? "In the first judgment recorded in Scripture, mercy goes hand in hand. If Adam is to die, mercy follows; the serpent's head is to be bruised (Gen 3:15). So, too, even the vengeance of eternal fire on Sodom ends in her restoration (Jude 7, Ezek 16:53-55). We thus understand the striking juxtaposition of mercy and judgment in God's revelation of himself to Moses (Exod 34:6-7)...[f]ew more beautiful illustrations of the view I am urging can be found than that afforded by the story of Achan, stoned by a terrible judgment..in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:24-25); for if we turn to Hosea 2:15 we shall find this promise, 'I will give her the Valley of Achor for a door of hope' -- words pregnant with suggestion."

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture

"Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Pour her a double portion from her own cup" (Rev.18:6)

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." (1 Jn.1:5)

"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (Js.1:17)

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Not all are saved.

Luke 13
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

Not all are saved.

Luke 13
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

God Bless,
SBC

Matthew wrote of "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Answer:

Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says
is for "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).

-
According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't
been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that
be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason,
didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He
means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?


1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Yes, even Judas, Pharoah, Sodom & Hitler.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

 

[SBC]

Matthew wrote of "few" finding it. Paul says "many" will (Rom.5:18-19). Who is wrong? How to harmonize?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Answer:

Matthew was speaking in the present tense (not final destiny)

Paul was speaking in the future tense (final destiny).

Also Paul was teaching universalism. The "many" in v.19 is a Hebraism meaning all. Just as Jesus says He would give His life a ransom for "many" (Mk.10:45) which Paul says
is for "all" people (1 Tim.2:4-6).



Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason,
didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He
means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?


1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Tim.2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Yes, even Judas, Pharoah, Sodom & Hitler.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

All shall believe. All shall not be forgiven or saved.

Isa 45
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Some confess BY their natural LIFE, which is their BLOOD.

John 8
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

A man DEAD IN HIS SINS, is a physically DEAD MAN, without HIS LIFE, (his blood).
He shall be raised up in HIS DEAD BODY, IN HELL, "SEE" the Lord, and CONFESS BELIEF. And bow to Him.

Too bad such men did not "confess" their belief, while their LIFE (his blood) was alive ON earth.
Yes, Too Bad, they missed out on being "FORGIVEN".
Yes, Too Bad, since, SAVING of man comes AFTER "forgiveness".
Yes, Too Bad, since, the book OF LIFE, will be opened, and their name will not appear.

Deut 9
[14] Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven:

Pss 109
[13] Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Rev [5] He that overcometh, .. I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..

He that overcometh, IS He that was living (his blood, his life) in his own flesh, and by his own life, gave his own life, to God and was forgiven.

NOTHING whatsoever, teaches, that men who see the Lord IN HELL, and believe, ARE then forgiven or saved.

Matt 10
[28] ....fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"THEY" didn't. Thus they stand before Him in judgement; IN hell; giving their shout out, they believe; And He shall OPEN, His BOOK, His Records; and their name shall NOT appear in His Book of Life; thus their sentence shall commence, and both their body and soul destroyed. Separated from the Lord forever, and remembered no more.

His truth prevails. His prophecy fulfilled.

Luke 12
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Forever LIFE "to" those HE MADE WHOLE.
Forever absence of LIFE, and destruction "for" those who rejected Him, and He did not forgive and did not make whole.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

All shall believe. All shall not be forgiven or saved.

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins. (Psa.130:8)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom.11:26)

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Matt 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

John 8
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

A man DEAD IN HIS SINS, is a physically DEAD MAN, without HIS LIFE, (his blood).
He shall be raised up in HIS DEAD BODY, IN HELL, "SEE" the Lord, and CONFESS BELIEF. And bow to Him.

Too bad such men did not "confess" their belief, while their LIFE (his blood) was alive ON earth.
Yes, Too Bad, they missed out on being "FORGIVEN".
Yes, Too Bad, since, SAVING of man comes AFTER "forgiveness".
Yes, Too Bad, since, the book OF LIFE, will be opened, and their name will not appear.

How many babies, children & teenagers do you think will go to "hell"? Will they burn forever or be annihilated forever?

Deut 9
[14] Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven:

Pss 109
[13] Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Rev [5] He that overcometh, .. I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..

He that overcometh, IS He that was living (his blood, his life) in his own flesh, and by his own life, gave his own life, to God and was forgiven.

To remove their name from "under heaven" refers to this mortal life on earth. God was speaking of killing the idolatrous Israelites & making a nation out of Moses instead. Of course this would not mean they were annihilated forever since all will be resurrected (Jn.5:28-29, etc). Whom God removes from the book of life, He has the power to put back in the book of life later.

"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up." (1 Sam.2:6)

Sheol = Hades = "hell" in Luke 16:19-31

NOTHING whatsoever, teaches, that men who see the Lord IN HELL, and believe, ARE then forgiven or saved.

See all of the comments & scriptures above.

Matt 10
[28] ....fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"THEY" didn't. Thus they stand before Him in judgement; IN hell; giving their shout out, they believe; And He shall OPEN, His BOOK, His Records; and their name shall NOT appear in His Book of Life; thus their sentence shall commence, and both their body and soul destroyed. Separated from the Lord forever, and remembered no more.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt. Like the rebuilding of a car engine:

Category:Rebuilt buildings and structures - Wikipedia

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

His truth prevails. His prophecy fulfilled.

Luke 12
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Forever LIFE "to" those HE MADE WHOLE.
Forever absence of LIFE, and destruction "for" those who rejected Him, and He did not forgive and did not make whole.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[SBC]

They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31)

And? Is this a speech given IN HELL, to men alive in their own blood? No.
There are no body's of men IN HELL, dead or alive in their blood.
This is a speech giving to men ON Earth, alive in their own blood.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.
He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins. (Psa.130:8)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom.11:26)

Who do you think "his people", "my people" are?
Men who, in their own blood lives, rejected God?
Men who, in their dead body's, in the grave, rejected God?

You think those, are "his people", "my people" ?
What Scripture teaches you that?

Because Gods Word, divides people; Some are WITH God, (and those ARE His People), set apart, FROM other people WHO are AGAINST God, (and those are NOT His People).

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Yes. Christ takes away the sin of the world.
Some people, will TAKE, His Salvation. Some will not.
The Earth, has no say in the matter.
Yes. Christ will TAKE AWAY, all sin, from all things, OF the World,
The men who did not Take His Salvation, The angels who rejected Him, The earth that has become corrupt. Yes - all of sin of the world, He shall TAKE AWAY.

Matt 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

And? What does a man forgiving his brother, have to do with Christ's forgiveness?

How many babies, children & teenagers do you think will go to "hell"?

How many have heard of God, learned and reasoned what is His Way?

I would say baby's, children, teens, know not, nor are responsible for their immature ability to know and reason, nor will go to hell.

Will they burn forever or be annihilated forever?

No.

Is it them you advocate for? Or is it adults, with ears to hear, reasoning abilities, to know, dead things, do not reproduce? Animals do not reproduce men? Statues do not reproduce men? Life comes from life?

To remove their name from "under heaven" refers to this mortal life on earth. God was speaking of killing the idolatrous Israelites & making a nation out of Moses instead. Of course this would not mean they were annihilated forever since all will be resurrected (Jn.5:28-29, etc). Whom God removes from the book of life, He has the power to put back in the book of life later.

No. Your name, is your identity, connected to your body, your soul, your natural spirit, and the same to your dead body, your corrupt soul, your natural spirit, and the same to one who has a sanctified dead crucified body, a restored soul, and a born again spirit.

Your name is connected to your mortal body - soul - spirit. Regardless of what your mortal body does, or does not do. Regardless of where your body, your soul, your spirit, is or is not.

"The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up." (1 Sam.2:6)

Correct. OT men, whose physical body died, that body was buried. Their living soul, went to Hell. Believers and Unbelievers. In Hell, there was a division. The faithful on one side together, in comfort, with Abraham, with the Tree of Life, keeping them sustained IN GOD, And on the other side of the division was, living souls of men, who had rejected God, without God, without comfort, and thus in agony.

Since Samuel's day, and since Jesus' day, of His bodily death, His living soul went also to hell's comfort side. Jesus called it Paradise. And by and through study of Scripture, we know, Paradise is where the Tree of Life is. (the Tree of Life, sustains the soul, with God). The Tree of Life, WAS, in the Garden of Eden, WAS in the comfort side of hell, IS in Heaven, and SHALL BE, in Christ's Kingdom on Earth).

Living souls in the comfort side of Hell, could not leave, UNTIL, He who is before all things, had LEFT. It is Jesus, (the Word of God), who IS before all things. His living soul went to the comfort side of hell, and LEFT. Thereafter, the Living souls in the comfort side of Hell, who had been waiting, ALSO left, and went to Heaven, to WAIT.
There they praise God, and WAIT, for their body's to be resurrected and changed to glorious body's.

A lot has happened, since Samuel's day. His physical body died. His living soul went to the comfort side of hell. Jesus' soul came and left. And so also did Samuel's living soul, leave, and go to Heaven, along with all the other living souls in the comfort side of hell. And he waits for His body to be resurrected and changed.

Sheol = Hades = "hell" in Luke 16:19-31

Yes - the Hebrews and the Greeks, in their own languages, had names for the comfort side of hell and the torment side of hell.

Some English speakers, use the Hebrew and Greek languages to distinguish the divisions in hell.

Me. I speak English and identify the divisions, simply by noting the division, and call one side the comfort side, and one side the torment side. It is the same division, the Hebrews and Greeks reference.

The division is Scriptural - regardless of who calls each side whatever.

Luke 16
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16 describes, those on each side, have their senses, (hearing, speech, smelling, etc.), can see and hear each other, but can NOT join each other, because they are separated by a great gulf, that will not allow, any to pass from one side to the other.

See all of the comments & scriptures above.

Context is paramount. While all Scriptures do apply to men. Not ALL Scriptures apply to EVERY man.

Unsaved living souls, that depart a physically dead mans body - still go to hell, and wait in torment, separated from God, waiting for their judgement of rejecting God and destruction of their body and soul.

Saved living souls, that depart a physically dead mans body - now go to heaven, and wait with God, waiting for their new body's, and their judgement of their works that glorified God.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt. Like the rebuilding of a car engine:

Men are not buildings.

God "forgives" the whole of a man (who chose to believe), while they were in their own life. (blood)
....How does a dead man, NOT in his own life, (blood) choose God?

God "sanctifies" body's, (of men who believed) then kills their body with Christ.
....Some choose to NOT be killed WITH Christ.
....Hello - no body sanctification.

God "restores" the living souls of men (who chose to believe)

God "quickens" the spirit of man (who chose to believe)

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

God does not "destroy" HIS LIFE. God "PUTS", imparts "His life" into "things" He has created and made.

When the "thing", chooses to BELIEVE in Him, He gives that "thing" forever life from Him.

When the "thing", chooses to NOT BELIEVE in Him, He withholds giving that "thing" forever life from Him.

What God destroys, are "things" He has created and made, AFTER, He departs "life from Him" out of the thing.

Gods "LIFE" returns to Him. It is the "thing" that is destroyed.

The "destruction" pertaining to a man; is his body (void of life) and his soul (void of life). Is it burned in fire? Yes. Is the man yelling oochie, ouchie, the fire, it burns, it hurts? Well? How can he? He has NO life in him. How does something with NO life in it feel or know anything? So is his body and soul destroyed? Yes. It is no longer a body or a soul. So is it (body and soul) forever in torment of flames? Yes.

While it is no longer a body or soul, It is ash.

Simply understanding - what was created in the beginning, has been here since the beginning. There is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc 1:9)

Nothing disappears - but most all things, CHANGE, in appearance of what men's eyes can see.

You can SEE dust, but you can not SEE a man being made from dust.
You can SEE body's, but once a body dies and returns to dust, ALL you would see is dust, and you would no longer called it a body, yet you could know it's name.

So, body's and soul's that rejected God, become burned and become ash. The ash does not disappear, and it remains in the flames forever. It is a forever purification, as fire purifies. And everything will be purified. But not all will be WITH God.

And so, WHY is only their body and soul destroyed?

Because FOREVER LIFE, is ONLY given to a man who was living in his body (his blood),
who called on the Lord's NAME, and submitted to Him in Belief. THEY are given a new spirit. A spirit born of Gods Seed. Spirits NEVER die. Thus, IF God had given a man, who rejected Him, a "new spirit", that "spirit would forever be alive, in flames, separated from God". Gods mercy on men who reject Him, is to NEVER give them a "new spirit", that would be ALIVE forever "separated from Him".

Angelic spirits, who rejected God, shall also be in flames, (being purified forever) and
they (unlike men) ALIVE forever, and forever separated from God. They have not the mercy of God, because they were created with knowledge of God, (unlike men who have to hear and learn).

God baptizes TWO ways. And the WAY, depends on who stand with God, and who has stood against God.

A man who CHOOSES (in his life, his blood), to stand with God, is baptized with the Holy Spirit and the receives the Seed of God, that births a man a new spirit.

A man who DOES NOT CHOOSE (in his life, his blood), to stand with God, is baptized with Fire.

Matt 3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Every man has the CHOICE to choose WHEN to believe, and with which baptism He desires to receive.
Because ALL will believe, and ALL will be baptized.

You advocate that men who stand against God, will be joined in habitat, with men who stand with God. THAT IS THE HERE AND NOW. And you think, that is also the future?

No friend. The future is not a co-habitation of those without God and his without his spiritual life, and those with God and his forever spiritual life.

Nothing whatsoever informs you, God gives his forever spiritual life to body's and soul's of men in hell, that rejected them, then "in hell" claim belief.

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Come to terms quickly with your adversary? What do you think that means?
Join your adversary? No. It means, get to getting and reject your adversary, before it is too late. Because I assure you, you WILL pay, all you own, before you are free from your adversary. What is their freedom from their adversary? BAPTISM.

With the Holy Spirit, IF they will quickly turn away from their adversary.
or... With Fire, where their adversary will have no more hold on them.

Matt 5: 25-26 is basically tell men, get on the ball, and make a decision. Because if you do not Decide, it will be decided for you. You will be dragged to the judgement of hell and baptized with fire.

You are advocating, "no hurry", "no urgency". Hey, it doesn't matter if you stand againt God (in your life, your blood), God is going to raise up your dead, blood-less body, and save you anyway. (No consideration, that God NEVER gave you a forever living spirit).

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins.

Why do you "take" to "include", men who stand against God, as "His People" ?

Gods PEOPLE, are those who believe in Him AND are born of His Seed, divided from those who are NOT His People, rejecters of belief in Him AND not born of His Seed.

Ex 8
[23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people:

Luke 12
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Gal 3
[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Christ IS the Seed of God. It is ON Earth, NOT MANY, receive the Seed of God.
Abraham received Gods Seed, but not ALL of the Hebrews did, nor will ALL of the Jews, nor ALL of the Gentiles.

John 8 [56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

As well, men who receive Gods Seed, rejoice and are glad.

But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

That nonsense is mankind's mindful nonsense. (license to sin). pfft!

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

It entails more than "justifying". There is that matter of sanctifying, anointing, cleansing, covering, being crucified with Christ, quickening of their spirit, being kept with Christ, and being raised by and unto Christ.

Where are dead body's of men who rejected Christ, forgiven, sanctified, their spirits quickened, given the Holy Spirit, raised up unto Christ in the clouds, and given a new body?

1 Thes 4
[8] ... God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Where does this speak to those NOT in Christ? And Gods Holy Spirit, NOT in a man?

You can go on and on, trying to prove, all sinners are raised and changed and forever with the Lord.

However - everyone born on this earth, is a sinner, born in sin and has committed sin.
And all on this earth, do not repent, or are given forgiveness, or are changed.
Some will defy God, Some will believe and be sanctified and given eternal life.
And each has the consequences of their choices, while they are on their earth, clearly revealed.

You attempt to use Scripture for one man and his choices, and apply it to another man and his choices. Face it.
There IS a division among men, their body's, their soul's, and their spirits.
And their choices and consequences are NOT the same.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

The division is Scriptural - regardless of who calls each side whatever.

Luke 16
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16 describes, those on each side, have their senses, (hearing, speech, smelling, etc.), can see and hear each other, but can NOT join each other, because they are separated by a great gulf, that will not allow, any to pass from one side to the other.

The duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed. After all, God is omnipresent.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,

"Son
Lit., child.

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)."

Luke 16:25 Commentaries: "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from the story.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

----------------

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[WebersHome]

-
The Bible can be made to support a pretty wide variety of ideologies; affording people quite a few options here in America where the US Constitution prevents government interference in matters of religion.

Some of the available ideologies-- e.g. Universalism --try to tone down the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15 by attesting that it's only temporary rather than permanent. But even so, are there really people out there actually comfortable with the prospect of a fate akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron? Wouldn't they much rather completely avoid the brimstone altogether? Perhaps in their mind's eye, there exists no way to completely avoid the brimstone; they're honestly convinced it's inevitable.

/

 

[SBC]

The duration, nature & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

If we are going to guess a time-frame -
I would reject your less than 5 minutes, and go with scripture, being from his physical bodily death, plus 1,000 years.

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol/Hades/hell), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

Already covered this. Where the faithful "were" or "are" is where God is. In the OT, living souls of the deceased faithful "were" in hell, with the Tree of life. Jesus left, so too did the souls of the faithful, and the Tree of life. God is not with the spiritually dead, who are spiritually separated from Him.

We are told the rich man requested water. He seemed to think a few drops of water would ease his sufferings. Apparently this isn't served in "hell" (Hades), but whether or not alcohol & morphine is on the menu is not revealed.

Nonsense psychobabble. Hell is unquenchable thirst, separation from God and His Word, hot, and the putrid smell of sulfur.

After all, God is omnipresent.

Gods presence, is God being fully aware of all goings on. It does not mean, He is WITH, all men.

Luke 16:27-28 seems to show the rich man's concern for others. Perhaps he was beginning to have a change of heart. Supposedly that is the purpose of those in Hades recieving the word of the Lord, in this case via Abraham.

Change of heart? Or experiencing his rejection of God, and not liking it, and having no way to rectify. The rich man wanted to warn his brothers, Abraham, basically said no.
A man has to make his own choices to believe, while he is alive in his own life (his blood).

So does this story do more harm than good for the endless tormenting god position, even if taken literally?

If taken literally? WHO spoke this "story"? I recall the speaker being Jesus, who is called the TRUTH. Why would what the TRUTH speaks, not be the TRUTH?

I would find HARM, IF, hell's torment was a surprise, and unknown.
However the torment of hell, was revealed, that men could make their own choices, to be sent there, or not.

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

Hell does reveal the divide, and who is on each side of the divide.
Living souls on the faithful side, are no longer in hell, nor are living souls of the faithful now sent to hell.
Whether or not the gulf remains, is irrelevant, the Tree of Life, is not there.

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,

"Son
Lit., child.

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)."

The rich man addressed Abraham as "father Abraham".
That gives you notice; the rich man was "descended" from Abraham's "stock" (natural sperm) descendant. (meaning the rich man was also a Hebrew/ Jew).

Abraham replying to the rich man, as Son, is Abraham acknowledging, their "stock" (Hebrew/Jew) relationship.

However, Scripture has revealed; NOT ALL of Abraham's stock descendants, are included as "a child of Abraham", regarding the promise made to Abraham.

Those who ARE included as "a child of Abraham", ARE, those who have the Seed of God.
Those who ARE included "may or may NOT be" Abraham's stock descendants.
Those who ARE included; ARE, anyone, (Jew or Gentile), who have received within them the Seed of God (who is Christ; the Word of God)
Those who ARE included: ARE, included, by Promise, (not race or gender or earthy status).
Those who ARE included; ARE, by Promise, children of Abraham.
Those who ARE included; ARE, by Promise, heirs of the Land, promised to Abraham.

Luke 16:25 Commentaries: "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Any proof that the story of the rich man & Lazarus disproves universalism is absent from the story.

Gods division - is not a mystery. Men who are alive on this earth, in their own life (blood of their body), make their own decisions to believe in God or not.

Those who do choose to submit in belief To God - body - soul - spirit are WITH God forever, and God WITH the mans body - soul - spirit forever.

Those whose life (their blood of their body), becomes deceased, WITHOUT having chosen to submit to belief in God - shall ultimately be separated from God forever.

Once they are dead (bodily, void of their life, ie their blood), the door is shut.
There is no opening of the door to them, after the door is shut.
Their fate is sealed, that they shall forever be separated from God.

And a man WHO, enter through the door, so too , is their fate sealed, that they shall forever be WITH God.

Luke 13
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

You are desperately trying to pry the door open, and let in those who rejected God.
Scripture does not say that.

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

"they", being the rejecters, do not "get out of hell".

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Not a secret, the Word of God is for all to hear.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Yes, Glory to God. Rejecters of God did not glorify God, nor shall enjoy peace on earth.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;

Yes, a revelation of Gods works within a faithful man, and the restoration of the earth, to an earth without chaos.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Already covered that. The salvation of God is Jesus. Already said, some will see Jesus in the clouds. Some will see Jesus in hell, and believe, and be then judged and sentenced.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

And?
Unbelievers can do right by their enemies, so what? It doesn't glorify God.
Believers who do right by their enemies, do so in Gods NAME, which does Glorify God.

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Yes, going after that one lost living thing. Not news, and precisely what Gods Word spread around the world to every living thing is purposed to do.

Gods Word going after the physically dead? No.

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Reaching the lost, by revealing Gods Word around the world, IS Gods Work, done in the manner He chose.

God providing His light within men to spread His Word to the lost around the world, IS Gods Work, done in a manner He chose.

Finding and revealing the Word of God to all around the world, IS by Gods efforts and His faithful servants.

You are attempting to imply; all who are found and hear, WILL agree and believe and submit. They don't. Nor are they forced to agree, believe or submit.

What you don't recognize is; God does all to reveal to all His Word of life and truth.
Those, who choose to reject Him, shall be without "excuse", on judgement day.

Rom 1
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

You are desperately trying to make excuses for men who physically died in their sins, without forgiveness, to be forgiven, after the fact, after the door was shut to them.

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Only God forgives sin. Men repeatedly trespass against other men, and a forgiveness between men is taught for men to repeatedly forgive other men.

God forgives all sin, of a submission man. Physically dead men (void of their life; their blood), know nothing, do nothing, and can not therefore confess their sin or be forgiven their sin.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

Once they are dead (bodily, void of their life, ie their blood), the door is shut.
There is no opening of the door to them, after the door is shut.
Their fate is sealed, that they shall forever be separated from God.

And a man WHO, enter through the door, so too , is their fate sealed, that they shall forever be WITH God.

Luke 13
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

You are desperately trying to pry the door open, and let in those who rejected God.
Scripture does not say that.

Compare Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".

Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve"

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless punishment it's next to nothing.

The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.

Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.


1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[ClementofA]

They get out of "hell" (Luke 16:19-31) in Revelation 20:11-15, if not sooner.

"they", being the rejecters, do not "get out of hell".

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them...(Rv.20:13a)

 

[SBC]

Compare Mt.7:21-23...Jesus says to the wicked "depart from Me".

Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve"

Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

Pretty lame? odd.

"Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless punishment it's next to nothing.

Actually it is a "Big Deal".
Every man who IS With the Lord, becomes the Lords "inheritance".
Every man whom the Lord rejects, is a loss of the Lords "inheritance".



And what exactly IS this "endless punishment" that concerns you?
Reveal what that is.

The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.
Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

Matt 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;

If you need to see the words forever and denial - Go read the texts concerning those who stand in their own life (blood), and deny God, and die in their own life (blood) having denied God/

Everyone starts out not doing God's will.

True.

Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

Why would it mean that? Starting out is one thing; a man submitting to the Lords changing of the man......come on; think. They are no longer, how "the started out"!

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Yes Israel is His people. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
How handy, Gentiles, can become children of Abraham, and included, as His people.

Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

Of course God will be "all in all". All those who are His People!

And All those who are NOT His People? They all shall be put under his feet.



1 Cor 15:
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Already covered that.

And? What? There commences no judgement? No sentencing? The book of life is not opened?

The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

And? So, go search the Scriptures and see if another verse does.

John 8: [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven.

It doesn't have to say never. It already said WILL NOT.

In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Already covered this.
I explained it, but I can not understand it FOR you.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

Already covered this.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Already covered this.

All sin, all corruption, all death SHALL be removed from the world!
You keep trying to INCLUDE, sin, corruption, death, to remain in the world!

Sin, corruption, death....are things AGAINST GOD....and they shall be removed from the earth.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ClementofA]

Pretty lame? odd.

Lame compared to endless punishment. Surely.

Actually it is a "Big Deal".
Every man who IS With the Lord, becomes the Lords "inheritance".
Every man whom the Lord rejects, is a loss of the Lords "inheritance".

He is heir of "all", not of only a lucky few:

in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all, through whom also He made the world. (Heb.1:2)

And what exactly IS this "endless punishment" that concerns you?
Reveal what that is.

A doctrine of demons.

Yes Israel is His people. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
How handy, Gentiles, can become children of Abraham, and included, as His people.

Israelites like Judas Iscariot shall be saved from their sins (Mt.1:21, 2:6)

Of course God will be "all in all". All those who are His People!

All "in Adam" (1 Cor.15:22,28).

And All those who are NOT His People? They all shall be put under his feet.

Under His feet. Not endless punishment.

You'll be under His feet, too, as will "all":

25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

John 8: [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Die in sins. Not endless punishment.

It doesn't have to say never. It already said WILL NOT.

Wrong. He says depart. He doesn't say depart forever.

You keep trying to INCLUDE, sin, corruption, death, to remain in the world!

I never said any such thing. Death & sin will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26; Jn.1:29).

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[SBC]

-
The Bible can be made to support a pretty wide variety of ideologies; affording people quite a few options here in America where the US Constitution prevents government interference in matters of religion.

Some of the available ideologies-- e.g. Universalism --try to tone down the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15 by attesting that it's only temporary rather than permanent. But even so, are there really people out there actually comfortable with the prospect of a fate akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron? Wouldn't they much rather completely avoid the brimstone altogether? Perhaps in their mind's eye, there exists no way to completely avoid the brimstone; they're honestly convinced it's inevitable.

/

But even so, are there really people out there actually comfortable with the prospect of a fate akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron?

It is not fate akin to ~ thus what is not comparable, does not affect my comfort level.

a foundry worker ~ is alive in his own life (his blood)
a foundry worker ~ has all his senses (living soul) (and would feel extreme pain)

A man subjected to the consequences of hell - shall STAND in judgement, body & soul.

His life is already void of it's life (ie it's blood)
The life in his soul, is life from God. It's Gods life, and shall depart from the mans soul and return to God.

The mans body (void of life) and the mans soul (void of life) shall be destroyed; thus forever his body and his soul, shall be no more. No body, No soul, but rather ASH, or what his body and soul was.

What has this man, VOID of life, felt? Nothing.
Thus not comparable to a man in the foundry, who would feel the pain of the mouton fire.

Wouldn't they much rather completely avoid the brimstone altogether?

Brimstone, is the burning of the brimstone, which causes a putrid smell, of sulfur.
Unpleasant, and part of the agony.

Perhaps in their mind's eye, there exists no way to completely avoid the brimstone;

Of course there is a way.

Man's life, is his blood. God is going to TAKE a man's life, one way or another.

Men who are living (have the blood of their life), and choose to give their life to God,
(crucified with Christ), they shall keep their life forever.

Men who are living (have the blood of their life), and choose to keep their life (blood), (not crucified with Christ), shall lose their life forever.

they're honestly convinced it's inevitable.

Correct.

Luke 17:
[33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[WebersHome]

-
Continuing from post #222

● 1Pet 3:15b . . Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you.

The koiné Greek word for "hope" in that passage, and in others (e.g. Rom 8:23-25) is elpis (el-pece') which means expectation; viz: elpis isn't wishful thinking, nor crossing your fingers, nor is it a blend of longing, insecurity, and doubt; no, elpis is a confident kind of hope that looks forward to something that it fully expects to obtain; ergo: elpis is an anticipating hope; viz: it doesn't pray for the best, while in the back of its mind dreading the worst.

The Bible says that elpis is a "calling"

● Eph 4:5 . .You were called to one hope when you were called

When people aren't 100% sure what the afterlife has in store for them-- if there is even the slightest possibility they might be disappointed --they can't possibly comply with Peter's instructions for the simple reason that the hope that is in them, if any, is the wrong kind of hope.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 138 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,380,740 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

/