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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by WebersHome, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think you have misunderstood. Herein is the gospel:

    1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

    3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures




     
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  2. WebersHome

    WebersHome Active Member

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    In the Flood, all died-- in the ark, all lived.

    Get it?

    The time to get one's self in Christ is now, not later; because later will be too late. Just as there was no second chance for the antediluvians to get themselves in the ark, there will be no second chance for unbelievers to get themselves in Christ.

    2Cor 6:2 . . I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

    /
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 7 does not say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve"

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to.

    "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless punishment it's next to nothing.

    The word "forever" is no part of Mt.7:21.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.

    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to what happens on a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

    Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26) when all the dead in the lake of fire are made alive in Christ (v.22) and God becomes all in all (v28).

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    "AS in Adam ALL die
    SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
    BUT each in his own order:

    1. Christ the Firstfruit;

    2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

    3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
    up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
    have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
    For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
    under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
    IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

    "...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
    rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
    different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
    are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

    1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

    2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

    3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
    kingdom."

    "It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
    thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
    lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
    end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
    ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
    all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
    24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
    are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
    a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
    is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
    anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
    something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
    refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
    will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
    will never end (Luke 1:33)."

    "Four statements in this passage indicate that the
    words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
    of an end order.

    1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
    alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

    2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
    It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
    as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

    3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is God the Father.

    4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."




    This passage, 2 Cor.6:1-2, makes no mention of God's love expiring, like the date on a milk carton, when this life ends. If that were so, where are all the babies & children who died without believing in Christ.

    The word "the" does not appear in the Greek here:

    2 Corinthians 6 δε AND συνεργουντες WORKING JOINTLY παρακαλουμεν WE URGE υμας YOU και ALSO μη NOT δεξασθαι TO RECEIVE την THA χαριν GRACE του OF THO θεου GOD εις IN κενον VAIN

    Young's Literal Translation
    for He saith, 'In an acceptable time I did hear thee, and in ***A*** day of salvation I did help thee, lo, now is a well-accepted time; lo, now, ***A*** day of salvation,' -- (2 Cor 6:2)

    For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!" (CLV)

    For he saith—In an approved season, have I hearkened unto thee, and, in a day of salvation, have succoured thee;—Lo! now, a well-approved season, Lo! now, a day of salvation: (Rotherham)

    If it is "a" day of salvation that doesn't equate to "the only" day of salvation.

    If today is "a" day of salvation, tomorrow may be another day.

    To the Lord a day is as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8).

    Now is "a" day of salvation. The present moment is always "now", whether today or in a 1000 years after Paul wrote that or in 3000, 5000 or 10,000 years after he wrote it.

    Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
  5. WebersHome

    WebersHome Active Member

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    There will be no more death after the second death spoken of in Rev 20:11-15. However, according to the prophet Daniel (Dan 12:2) and according to the lord and master of Christianity (John 5:28-29) there is but one end-time resurrection allotted per person. So then, nobody will be coming back from the lake of brimstone seeing as how they will use up their one allotted end-time resurrection in order to face justice at the great white throne event.

    The abolition of death simply means that nobody will ever have to die again, but it does not mean that many of those who die prior to the abolition of death won't stay dead; viz: just as those who died in the Flood stayed dead, so those on track to die in the lake of brimstone will also stay dead because death won't be abolished until after all is said and done at the great white throne event. (Rev 21:1-4)



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    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I read Dan.12:2 & Jn.5:28-29, but nothing there spoke of just one, or only one, or "but one" end-time resurrection per person. Some people have been resurrected once already, died twice, will be resurrected a second time, could die a third time in the LOF, & nowhere does Scripture say people cannot be resurrected from the second death/LOF.

    The abolishing of death (1 Cor.15:25-26) means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

    3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

    The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But
    1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither can God yet be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished.

    So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in
    the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

    Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

    God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

    In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing? Those in the lake of fire.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    "The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

    Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture


    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!” All is not yet new while there are still those dead or suffering in the lake of fire.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:

    Psalm 72:11
    Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    Psalm 102:15
    So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

    Psalm 138:4
    All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

    Isaiah 60
    2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

    Isaiah 62:2
    The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

    Revelation 21:24
    By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  7. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Ok ~

    So, let's examine first -

    Now - or otherwise, any man's time of when
    Knows - or otherwise, hears the Scriptures
    Preached - or otherwise, the method of hearing
    Received - or otherwise, accepted what he hears
    Stand - or otherwise, can not be swayed to Not believe.
    Saved - or otherwise, because he is steadfast in belief.
    Christ died, was buried, rose up again - is the belief.
    Brethren - or otherwise are all men who stand together in these things.

    I believe these things, are regarding "ANY MAN", alive in his life, (blood), existing alive, upon his habitat, (earth);
    IS "ANY MAN'S" "NOW" time to Hear, Know, Receive, Stand, be Saved.


    You say you believe these things.

    Do you also believe and preach:
    A man's NOW TIME; to Hear, Know, Receive, Stand, be Saved ~ is IN HELL?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't say that, thus there is no need to consider that.

    These verses are not about LOVE. It is already established that God LOVES ALL OF His creations. Nothing ever says otherwise.

    These verses are WARNINGS - about men who do their OWN WILL, instead of the WILL of the Father.

    These verses give the OUTCOME - of what SHALL HAPPEN - to a man WHO DOES HIS OWN WILL, instead of, the WILL of the FATHER.

    The OUTCOME is clear - THEY SHALL be rejected to be WITH Jesus IN HIS KINGDOM.

    Matt 7
    [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    You expand; Scripture to include DEAD MEN, in Hell, confessing belief, to ALSO becoming FORGIVEN and SAVED.
    Please provide the Scriptures, whereby the DEAD MEN in hell,
    confessing BELIEF, become FORGIVEN and become SAVED.


    Correct.

    Uh no. A FEW will CHOOSE to do His will: Believe, be FORGIVEN and Be SAVED and Be Born of Gods Seed, and Be His People and Be Christ's Brethren.
    And MANY will NOT.

    Correct . "HIS PEOPLE".
    "His PEOPLE" - are the Jews, are the Gentiles - who ALL have the SAME "SEED" of Abraham, and that "SEED" IS Christ.

    ALL in ALL.....
    ALL WHO? ---> God
    in ALL WHO? ----> are IN Christ.

    Can you provide a scripture revealing that MEN IN HELL who rejected Christ; become IN CHRIST?

    Yes - the first fruits - The bodily dead, with Christ IN them, are first to rise up.
    Yes - then the fruits - The bodily alive, with Christ IN them, shall rise up.

    And? THOSE who ARE NOT Christ's ? Are "THEY" rising up to meet the Lord in the air? Scripture does not INCLUDE them, as rising up to meet the Lord in the air...

    Not in the Scripture you present, NOR in the Scripture;
    1 Thes 4
    [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Correct. What these Scriptures do, is place a particular TIME, (which is according to the Lords descent from Heaven to the Clouds), and the particular WHO, (the bodily Dead and bodily Living IN Christ) shall be risen up TO the Lord in the air/clouds.

    "THESE" are NOT going to HEAVEN; they ARE going to the Clouds, to receive their NEW BODIES.

    Uh huh.

    And what do you think HAPPENS "after the JUDGEMENT is pronounced"?

    Do you think - a man WHO DOES NOT HAVE Christ IN HIM, will be Judged, and found as Having Christ IN HIM?

    And WHERE is the Scripture, telling us, MEN in Hell, WITHOUT Christ IN HIM, WHILE IN HELL, "RECEIVE CHRIST IN HIM" ?

    And? You think JESUS' PEOPLE are IN HELL?

    Yes. The Truth will set you Free.

    The Truth is; The Savior SAVES, MEN IN Christ, during the Time they are ALIVE in their own LIFE (their blood).

    The Truth is; Your gospel teaches; The Savior SAVES, MEN who were NOT IN CHRIST, during the Time they 'WERE" ALIVE in their own LIFE (their blood).

    The Truth is; You have provided NO Scripture that teaches; your gospel.

    The Truth is; You present Scriptural Verses and attempt to APPLY those verses to MEN, WHO, while ALIVE in their own LIFE (their blood), REJECTED, belief, forgiveness, Saving, Being Born Again.......and TEACH, they SHALL be: (WITHOUT their own life (blood));
    shall be forgiven, saved, born again, anyway.

    I totally disagree with you. Nor have you provided any Applicable Scriptural support for your teaching.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where is the Scripture saying they don't? Define "hell", since that is a word the Scriptures never use. Are you referring to Hades, Gehenna, the grave, the lake of fire, Tartarus - which of these 5 "hells", if any, are you referring to? Will all eventually be saved, even if they must go through "hell" first? Yes, they will, as Scripture teaches.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    But, the English concept of Hell doesn't exist. There is no afterlife apart from the Resurrection.
     
  11. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I simply trust Scripture by what it does say.
    Scripture tells me what IS, for those IN CHRIST.
    Scripture tells me WHEN and HOW a man becomes IN CHRIST.

    Your teaching implies a man CAN BECOME "IN CHRIST"; after his own life (his blood life) has been expired, and the man has become DEAD, NOT IN CHRIST.

    Please provide the Scriptures of a physically DEAD man, becoming IN CHRIST.

    I find "hell" mentioned in over 60 verses in my Bible.

    " 5 hell's " ? Hell, supposedly never mentioned in Scripture, that you define as 5 Hell's?

    I refer to HELL, as the place deep within the Heart of the EARTH.

    I have no issue, within the context of Scripture: what place is being spoken of, who it pertains to, in what language, Because I already know;

    What and where; Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, Sheol, The Lake of Fire, The Bottomless Pit, The Grave, mean in context to Scripture.

    ALL, departed soul/spirits, who WERE SAINTS, in Hades (Greek), in Sheol (Hebrew), absolutely, "WERE" saved out of Hades, out of Sheol. That has already been accomplished.

    Matt 27
    1. [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    2. [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Not sure how you determined - EVERYONE in the Universe, INCLUDING Demons have become or SHALL become "SAINTS".

    Yes - And certainly you noticed to WHOM, this was being spoken ~

    Rev 1:
    Rev.1
    [1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

    Where does scripture specifically teach you; those who are NOT Gods Servants, are they who are heard saying;

    "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

    ?

    Again ~ It is your teaching, that includes ALL, without consideration of WHO are NOT included, NOT forgiven, NOT saved, NOT born again, NOT servants of God.

    You may not have noticed ~ but there IS DIVISION among the people even to THIS DAY.

    Your attempts to INCLUDE men divided FROM God, as being INCLUDED WITH God, is not taught in scripture.

    Ex 8
    [23] And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.

    Luke 12
    [51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

    John 7
    [43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you see this includes every human & angelic being, fallen or never fallen, that was ever created or born:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


    Of course there are saints & sinners - today - in the present mortal life and age. In Revelation 5:13, beyond the lake of fire, all will be saints.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  13. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Clarify please;

    Do you believe ~
    Men during their life who believe shall be saved?
    Men during their life who never believed shall be saved?

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Q.1. Yes.

    Q2. They will be lost until they're saved.
     
  15. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your reply.

    Perhaps I was not clear on my second question, if you wouldn't mind....

    Do you believe ~

    ALL Men who did not believe, were never saved and born again, WHILE they were alive, will be bodily raised, and saved and born again?

    Thanks,

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  16. WebersHome

    WebersHome Active Member

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    Continuing from post #257

    1Pet 5:5b . . and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

    The koiné Greek word for "humble" is tapeinophrosune (tap-i-nof-ros-oo'-nay) which means lowliness of mind; viz: modesty, which Webster's defines as freedom from conceit or vanity. Lowliness of mind is to be greatly desired for its blessing.

    Matt 5:3 . . Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Humility is very rare on internet forums. Active members are typically easily insulted and infected with vanity; plus imperious, domineering, despotic, assertive, confrontational, arrogant, conceited, reactive, thin-skinned, self-righteous, emotional, critical, and defensive. Those are not what I would call good Christian attributes. They also have a propensity to jump to conclusions, get the wrong impression, and fly off the handle. Those aren't good Christian attributes either; in point of fact; none of those attributes are blessing-worthy.

    "Grace" is one of those ambiguous abstract nouns that nobody seems to agree upon. Noah found grace in God's eyes (Gen 6:8) which in his case, regarded providence; which can be defined as kindly patronage. It was by God's providence that Noah and his family survived the Flood while the sons of God and their harems didn't. Let that sink in. Just because people label themselves a Christian, and profess a belief in Christ, is no guarantee they'll escape the horrors of the book of Revelation. Noah was a righteous man, and perfect in his generation; too many of today's card-carrying Christians are neither.

    The koiné Greek word for "proud" is huperephanos (hoop-er-ay'-fan-os) which means appearing above others, viz: haughty. Those kinds of people typically regard others with contempt, i.e. underserving of respect or even so much as common courtesy. Haughty people are typically cruel, thoughtless, insensitive, and badly infected with a superiority complex, which goes hand in hand with arrogance: defined as an exaggerated sense of one's importance, sometimes manifested in an overbearing manner.

    Arrogant people can be intolerably pushy and assertive at times; standing up to them usually always provokes an indignant reaction and a call to arms, so to speak, because these folk regard any and all disagreements with their way of thinking as demeaning attacks upon their core values and their distorted sense of self worth. These people have very little interest in harmony; they're stand-up fighters whose primary interest is winning.

    Seeing as how Heaven is reputed a place of peace, then the arrogant, the haughty, and the proud cannot be allowed to go there with their unholy personalities. For sure they'd just end up making things very uncomfortable for Heaven's normally mild-mannered, affable society.


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 147 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,927,310, new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you suppose those who died in unbelief before becoming a teenager will be thrown in the lake of fire for endless punishment?

    Even those who go into the LOF will be saved. Even Satan himself will be saved. And all his demons. Hitler, too. And Judas Iscariot. Pharoah of Moses time, also.

    Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? (Jer.32:27)

    Isn't Love Omnipotent good. He alone is worthy of all adoration & praise.

    Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  18. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  19. WebersHome

    WebersHome Active Member

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    Continuing from post #276

    1Cor 15:26 . .The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

    There will be no more death after the second death spoken of in Rev 20:11-15. However, according to the prophet Daniel (Dan 12:2) and according to the lord and master of Christianity (John 5:28-29) there is but one end-time resurrection allotted per person. So then, nobody will be coming back from the lake of brimstone seeing as how they will use up their one allotted end-time resurrection in order to face justice at the great white throne event.

    The abolition of death simply means that nobody will ever have to die again, but it does not mean that many of those who die prior to the abolition of death won't stay dead; viz: just as those who died in the Flood stayed dead, so those on track to die in the lake of brimstone will also stay dead because death won't be abolished until after all is said and done at the great white throne event. (Rev 21:1-4)


    POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 150 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,109,500, new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I read Dan.12:2 & Jn.5:28-29, but nothing there spoke of just one, or only one, or "but one" end-time resurrection per person. Some people have been resurrected once already, died twice, will be resurrected a second time, could die a third time in the LOF, & nowhere does Scripture say people cannot be resurrected from the second death/LOF.

    The abolishing of death (1 Cor.15:25-26) means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

    "Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

    3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

    The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But
    1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither can God yet be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished.

    So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in
    the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

    Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

    God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

    In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing? Those in the lake of fire.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    "The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

    Christ Triumphant, Part Three: Universalism Asserted on the Authority of Scripture


    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!” All is not yet new while there are still those dead or suffering in the lake of fire.

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:

    Psalm 72:11
    Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

    Psalm 102:15
    So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

    Psalm 138:4
    All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

    Isaiah 60
    2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

    Isaiah 62:2
    The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

    Revelation 21:24
    By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

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