Hell's Population Clock

[ClementofA]

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Case in point is Jacob's brother.

"Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Heb 12:16-17)

The koiné Greek word for "repentance" is metanoia (met-an'-oy-ah) which essentially means to change one's mind; viz: to reconsider.

Esau was an okay guy, but he was secular to the bone. He "got religion" right quick when he saw his way of life costing him the blessing; but alas, the poor slob was a day late and a dollar short; so to speak.

Lesson to be learned: The time for people to believe in hell is not when they get there, but before they get there.

"This text has reference to Esau (verse 16) selling the right to his birthright; and afterward, altho he wept sore, he could not get it restored. This is one of the texts that have been used by the enemy to torment oversensitive Christians, and to lead them to believe that they have committed the unpardonable sin, and for them there is nothing left but an unending hell. Every pastor of experience has met a number of such cases. This text, or some other text, has become the ground of their despair. Melancholia, or even a permanent insanity, has often resulted..." Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 15 Unpardonable Sins

Heb.12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

If fornicators can find "no place of repentance", then why do we read this re a fornicator:

1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Is there a contradiction?

"Is there a Bible contradiction in Hebrews 12:17? - Defending Inerrancy

"HEBREWS 12:17—WHY COULDN’T ESAU REPENT IF HE SOUGHT IT WITH TEARS?

"PROBLEM: The Bible informs us here that Esau “was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” But why wouldn’t God accept his sincere repentance, when He commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and is patiently waiting for people to repent (2 Peter 3:9).

"SOLUTION: There are two important things to observe about this pasage. First, the statement “no place for repentance” may refer to his father’s inability to change his mind about giving the inheritance to Jacob, and not to Esau’s change of mind. At any rate, the circumstances did not afford Esau the opportunity to reverse the situation and get the blessing.

"Second, tears are not a sure sign that a person has genuinely repented. One can also have tears of regret and remorse that fall short of true repentance or change of mind (cf. Judas, Matt. 27:3).

"Finally, this text is not talking about spiritual blessing (salvation), but earthly blessing (inheritance). God always honors the sincere repentance of sinners and grants them salvation (Acts 10:35; Heb. 11:6)."

Is there a Bible contradiction in Hebrews 12:17?

What is it that Esau sought with tears?

"...The question is, What did Esau seek with tears? What is the “it” of Hebrews 12:17 (“he sought for it with tears”)? Many people assume it is repentance. The word order in English leaves the other possibilities obscure. At face value in many translations, it does seem like it is repentance toward God that Esau is seeking.

"...However, there is another, and I believe, more faithful way to understand this passage. The pronoun “it” has not one but two possible antecedents. When structured like the translations I cited, the common way to read this in English is to look for the closest possibility as the referent to what Esau sought. And the closest referent to “it” is indeed “repentance.” However, the Greek language follows a different set of rules. Word order is secondary to inflection. The word “it” is a feminine pronoun, which means that the noun it modifies will be feminine too.

"In this verse there are two feminine nouns: “repentance” and “blessing.” Therefore, there are two viable options here for what Esau sought with tears. It was either repentance or the blessing. Neither is necessarily preferred based on grammar and syntax, so we must look to the context of the story the author of Hebrews references. So let’s look at the story of Esau.

"The Loss of Esau’s Blessing

"When we turn back to the narrative in Genesis 27, we see Esau being tricked out of his blessing by Jacob and his mother. After Esau found out he had been tricked and that Isaac hadblessed Jacob, he broke down. Notice how the story goes:

"And he said, “Your brother came deceitfully and has taken away your blessing.” Then he said, “Is he not rightly named Jacob, for he has supplanted me these two times? He took away my birthright, and behold, now he has taken away my blessing.” And he said, “Have you not reserved a blessing for me?” But Isaac replied to Esau, “Behold, I have made him your master, and all his relatives I have given to him as servants; and with grain and new wine I have sustained him. Now as for you then, what can I do, my son?” Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father.” So Esau lifted his voice and wept. (Genesis 27:35-38...

"Esau did indeed weep and repent. But what did he weep over? It was the loss of his blessing. The context in Genesis is clear. I think we must see the passage in Hebrews through the context of the original storyline. The author of Hebrews is saying that Esau sought his blessing, not repentance, with tears."

Is It Ever Too Late to Repent?

Rather than having sought repentance for his sins, contrary to the common interpretation of Hebrews 12:16-17, Esau immediately made plans to murder his brother. But the story has a happy ending. Jacob goes into hiding, some 20 years later Esau & Jacob meet again, Esau does not murder Jacob, & the two are reconciled with each other (Genesis 32 & 33).

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[WebersHome]

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It's sometimes proposed that Noah could have jumped off the Ark had he been inclined. Well; I seriously doubt that Noah would have done something so foolhardy. But no matter, because according to Gen 7:16, he was shut in.

The Lord not only shut him in, but sealed him in too. The hatch to hull mating surfaces had to be waterproofed with bitumen the same as all the rest of the hull. (Gen 6:14)

The Hebrew word for "shut" actually means to shut up; like as when a corral gate is closed to pen livestock and/or the door of a jail cell is locked to confine a convict. In other words, Noah was trapped inside the Ark by a door that could be opened only from the outside. That's interesting. It means that once the Ark's door was sealed, Noah's free will no longer mattered; it was trumped by the free will of a higher power; and were he, or anybody else inside, to change their mind about going, it was too late.

● Rev 1:9-18 . . I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

. . . I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

. . .When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living one; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

● Rev 3:7 . . What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

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[Kyrilllos el Antony]

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According to Jesus Christ's testimony as a credible expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; most of the world's responsible souls haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of June 19, 2017 @ 07:02 pm New York Time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 325,271,936 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 5,234 of the current daily death rate per 24 hours are adults.

Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by limiting their maximum percentage to 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,670 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 111 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 55 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld.

Using the ratio of 2,670 condemned souls per 325,271,936 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,398,439,461 people, would suggest something like 60,730 new arrivals in the fiery sector of the netherworld every 24 hours; which translates to approximately 2,530 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 20 hours and 47 minutes. In other words: if the world's daily number of condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 02:47 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher.

Christianity's hell never closes; no, not at all: it's open for business 24/7/365 nonstop and indifferent to global warming, Wall Street crashes, massive layoffs, outsourcing, high school shootings, terrorism, tsunamis, earthquakes, nuclear meltdowns, air, water, and soil pollution, freeway pile-ups, brown-outs, threatened species, the price of oil, student debt, GMO, trade deficits, protests, Federal debt, factory recalls, overpopulation, desertification, genocides, revolutions, civil wars, acid rain, road rage, oil spills, conscious decoupling, ISIS, LGBT marriage, Obamacare, blood diamonds, fracking, twerking, and/or President Donald Trump's wall.

If Christianity's perception of Jesus Christ and the hereafter is correct; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the abyss in an endless procession like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through Tyson chicken-processing plants on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, Chic-fil-A, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.

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Most people in the US are still Christian. What is more, as the Last Judgement has not happened, the suffering and perhaps the final disposition of those facing damnation might be eased or relieved through the prayers of the Church. This is why we pray for the departed in the Divine Liturgy.

We stop praying for the departed, and start praying to them, if it becomes evident that they are in Heaven, i.e. glorified saints. However we know of only a tiny fraction of the people in Heaven; it is a great comfort to consider that. (Really, only in cases of heroic virtue or martyrdom, backed up through miracles and in many cases, incorrrupt relics, are we able to assert their glorification)

 

[WebersHome]

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● Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

The "now" spoken of in that passage isn't today's here and now, rather, the now that will be after the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is past and a new cosmos and a new earth are brought on line.

The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends, family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic, desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get them over it.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 68 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,129,640 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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[Kyrilllos el Antony]

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● Rev 21:3-4 . . Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

The "now" spoken of in that passage isn't today's here and now, rather, the now that will be after the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is past and a new cosmos and a new earth are brought on line.

The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends, family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic, desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get them over it.

POPULATION CLOCK UPDATE: 68 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,129,640 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since June 19, 2017.

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This particular eschatological horror strikes me as incompatible with the Biblical doctrine of God as love.

 

[WebersHome]

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This particular eschatological horror strikes me as incompatible with the Biblical doctrine of God as love.

When certain personality types stand before God in judgment; I seriously doubt they'll be inclined to kneel or bow and talk to Him in soft respectful tones. No: they will be assertive, indignant, loud, confrontational, and furious; they will argue vehemently, pointing out where He is a hypocrite and a liar; throwing it up at Him that He's supposed to be a God of love and nothing but love.

When those kinds of people are brought up out of hades to face justice at the Great White Throne event as per Rev 20:11-15, I suspect they will be shackled in body chains and escorted by angelic corrections officers to prevent them from lunging at the person appointed by God to pass judgment on their behavior: none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

● John 5:22 . . Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

● Acts 17:31 . . God has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all by raising him from the dead.

People who have been led to believe that God is a God of love and nothing but love are in for a terrible awakening; but by then, it will be too late.

"There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death." (CCC 393)

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[Kyrilllos el Antony]

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When certain personality types stand before God in judgment; I seriously doubt they'll be inclined to kneel or bow and talk to Him in soft respectful tones. No: they will be assertive, indignant, loud, confrontational, and furious; they will argue vehemently, pointing out where He is a hypocrite and a liar; throwing it up at Him that He's supposed to be a God of love and nothing but love.

When those kinds of people are brought up out of hades to face justice at the Great White Throne event as per Rev 20:11-15, I suspect they will be shackled in body chains and escorted by angelic corrections officers to prevent them from lunging at the person appointed by God to pass judgment on their behavior: none other than the sweet little baby away in a manger.

● John 5:22 . . Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

● Acts 17:31 . . God has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all by raising him from the dead.

People who have been led to believe that God is a God of love and nothing but love are in for a terrible awakening; but by then, it will be too late.

"There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death." (CCC 393)

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The Bible says that God is Love, and God is perfect; indeed, God is three persons, united in perfect love. What you describe is not in accord with that Biblical doctrine. It's closer to the Islamic doctrine of a singular god devoid of attributes which is "perfect" but on arbitrary terms, and whose decisions are entirely arbitrary and capricious, as opposed to the Christian God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who we see at work throughout the entire Bible focused on bringing about the salvation of humanity.

Furthermore, Scripture also assures us that before Christ, every knee will bow.

 

[WebersHome]

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Scripture also assures us that before Christ, every knee will bow.

The knees about which you speak include the knees of souls in hell.

● Php 2:10 . . At the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth

● Rev 5:13 . .Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

For now, respect for Christ is voluntary; but in the future it will be mandatory; no doubt with even more force and fear than North Korea's respect for Kim Jong-un.

● Isa 2:17 . . The haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the pride of men shall be brought low; and The Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

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[ClementofA]

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The knees about which you speak include the knees of souls in hell.

● Php 2:10 . . At the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth

● Rev 5:13 . .Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

For now, respect for Christ is voluntary; but in the future it will be mandatory; no doubt with even more force and fear than North Korea's respect for Kim Jong-un.

● Isa 2:17 . . The haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the pride of men shall be brought low; and The Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

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9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil.2:9-11)

"Now, the verb that indicates the proclamation of the lordship of Jesus Christ on the part of all is ἐξομολογέω, which in the NT always means a voluntary and spontaneous, and not forced, confession, just like ὁμολογέω and ὁμολογία. This universal confession will be voluntary..." [p.40-41]

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory

"Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

"...either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4" "

A Pauline Universal Salvation? Universalism and Philippians 2:9-11 (4) | jeremy bouma

3 Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12)

22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.…(Isa.45)

11 It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God. (Rom.14:11)

"In looking at Phil. 2:10, "That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow," it may be objected that they "should," but they will not. But the original here means that they not only "should," but that they also will; the same construction is in John 3:16 where the Word reads "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish," etc. There is no doubt expressed in the word "should," a believer will certainly not perish. Besides, the passage in Isa. 45:23 states by the divine oath that "every knee shall bow." "In the Name of Jesus" (Greek and R. V.) means more than simply using the name of Jesus. It signifies, according to the Hebrew idiom, in the very nature of Jesus. This implies not only a change of heart, but that He has bestowed His own nature and spirit. Besides, the confession is that "Jesus Christ is Lord." No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is "to the glory of God the Father." No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father." The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly "in the Name of Jesus" and "to the glory of God the Father." Note, further, that those who "bow" and "confess" are in heaven," "in earth," and "under earth." This includes the whole creation of God."

Is Hell Eternal? Or Will God's Plan Fail? Ch. 8 The Neglected Age

"It is admitted that the scope of Phil. 2:10-11 is universal. Yet our writer states that many of those who bow and confess will finally be lost. No doubt this is partly due to his profound ignorance of the niceties of Greek grammar. It escapes, him that the word "confess" here, as usually, is in the Greek Middle Voice. This grand fact ensures that the confession is not forced or artificial, but with the emotions, from the heart, spontaneous, with the whole man behind it. It is confession indeed. That is the force of the Middle Voice in Greek. One needs only compare this verb (exomologeO), which only occurs once in the Active Voice, with the shorter verb(homologeO), which only occurs once in the Middle Voice, to observe that the former expresses the heart's emotions and zeal, whereas the latter expresses mere matter of fact confession."

ALEXANDER THOMSON: An Answer to the Challenge of Hell

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[WebersHome]

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ClementofA;

I suppose there are a few people here and there on the internet with enough interest to read your lengthy excerpts of other people's writings, but I assure you, I am not one of them. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't think for yourself, then you aren't thinking at all; and if you can't speak for yourself, then you shouldn't be speaking.

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[ClementofA]

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ClementofA;

I suppose there are a few people here and there on the internet with enough interest to read your lengthy excerpts of other people's writings, but I assure you, I am not one of them. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't think for yourself, then you aren't thinking at all; and if you can't speak for yourself, then you shouldn't be speaking.

You consider those "lengthy" excerpts? It seems you may not have seen some other people's posts in this particular forum.

I am not sure why this even needs to be stated, but obviously if that is your M.O. then you could read only the portions in every one of my posts where i am speaking, rather than quoting someone else. I trust that you can discern the difference.

I do find it interesting, though, that you chose to spend the time to respond in this manner rather than to the content of what was posted. What motivated that? No surprises there, though. Par for the course, as far as you are concerned.

 

[Kyrilllos el Antony]

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The knees about which you speak include the knees of souls in hell.

● Php 2:10 . . At the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth

● Rev 5:13 . .Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

For now, respect for Christ is voluntary; but in the future it will be mandatory; no doubt with even more force and fear than North Korea's respect for Kim Jong-un.

● Isa 2:17 . . The haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the pride of men shall be brought low; and The Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

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Once again, you continue to describe God with dark language. The Jack Chick, damnation-threatening approach to proselytization has backfired; a large portion of my generation and generation X have been driven to atheism by the compounded destructive actions of this hellfire-and-brimstone approach coupled with the doctrinal equivocation of the mainline Protestant churches,

The verses you interpret furthermore are subject to alternate interpretations, and extreme humility is required when interpreting eschatological prophecy. Recall what Peter wrote: "No prophecy is of any private interpretation."

 

[Lazarus Short]

This particular eschatological horror strikes me as incompatible with the Biblical doctrine of God as love.

Yes, indeed. If there is no more (Revelation 21:4) death, sorrow, crying or pain, then HOW can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? I have been waiting a long time for an answer to this question.

 

[Sea Horse]

I don't know where is Hell population clock , buyt there is "fullness of Gentiles " , which is what will cause Rapture , i wonder who will be last person to be saved . Romans 11:25

 

[Rajni]

This particular eschatological horror strikes me as incompatible with the Biblical doctrine of God as love.

It would seem that the true God of Love is often conflated with Loki.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It would seem that the true God of Love is often conflated with Loki.

View attachment 206513

Um...this same True God of Love told us not to even mention the name(s) of NOPE's (Name Of Pagan Entity).

 

[WebersHome]

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Peter wrote: "No prophecy is of any private interpretation."

The KJV's obsolete language is misleading. Here's that same passage in updated language.

● 2Pet 1:20-21 . . Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

That passage isn't talking about your own personal understanding of prophecy, rather, the origin of prophecy. In other words: the sayings of the prophets didn't arise from human reasoning and a fertile imagination. No, they got their sayings directly from God.

Now, the sayings they got from God are not quite the same as the sayings that you see in print. No, the sayings you see in print are the prophets' interpretations of the sayings they got from God; viz: they translated God's language and grammar into common language and grammar that you and I can understand. That's pretty amazing when you think about it.

For example: Jesus once said that his words are spirit (John 6:63). Well that right there is a bit of a problem because I don't have in my possession an Enigma machine designed to decode spirit words; so were I not blessed with the anointing as per 1John 2:26-27, I'd be sort of like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there when it comes to spirit words.

● 1Cor 2:12-13 . .We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

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[Rajni]

Um...this same True God of Love told us not to even mention the name(s) of NOPE's (Name Of Pagan Entity).

Too late. Oh well.

 

[WebersHome]

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If there is no more (Revelation 21:4) death, sorrow, crying or pain, then HOW can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell? I have been waiting a long time for an answer to this question.

Well; I have a sneaking suspicion that you've already been given an answer but didn't like it so you keep on looking for another that's acceptable to your way of thinking.

Within the context of the twenty-first chapter of Revelation, the absence of death, sorrow, weeping, and pain only pertains to people selected to be inhabitants of the new cosmos and the new earth.

In point of fact, according to Isa 66:22-24, the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15 will be a sort of tourist attraction on the new earth like the La Brea tar pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric beasts are on display. But of course the lake will contain human carrion instead of animal. I'd imagine the scene will resemble a huge apple-bobbing tub what with all the many thousands of carcasses floating around in it.

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[Sea Horse]

I just saw wonderful preacher talking about hell and why it even exist . If anybody struggle with that question i really recommend watching this .