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I'm using the same tool Jesus used to explain the supernatural. You know, "the kingdom of heaven is like...".Hmmm trying to explain the supernatural with the natural. No wonder we disagree.
The message is pretty clear in Acts. We are not to be scared into Christ's arms. We are to come out of desire to be with Him. I don't throw out a doctrine because it's not "scary enough".I don't think that you want to see anything in this parable. I think that you don't want to accept that we have immoral souls or that suffering due to what one does here could have consequences of suffering forever. You wish for an eternal cessation of consciousness as means of punishment rather than never-ending torment. You probably cannot fathom how a Loving God could suffer creatures that He loves to experience such a fate, without end. So, you reject the teaching first, and then work to see scripture through the filtered lens that results.
We have to become as God is, by living according to all of the commandments of Christ. Then, when we have the mind of Christ, we can be better judges of what His Word means. If we are to be simply annihilated -- unconscious for all eternity -- it is doubtful we will have nearly enough reason to do what it takes in this life to become as God is. My point is that it is spiritually damning to rule out eternal torment. Christ did not teach us to do this. He strongly emphasized that one ought to be terribly afraid of what is going to happen if you reject His gift of Eternal Life. Never-ending unconsciousness isn't scary at all, and our Lord did not teach it.
Yeah, I know. I don't either, and that is not what I would have you do. What I would have you do is to take up your cross, follow Christ, and become like God. Then, having a vision of God and the mind of Christ, it will become possible for you to know things as God knows them. This is necessary for all of us to do, because otherwise we see all things from a place of darkness, as with the eyes of the flesh and our fallen nature. Doctrines being fabricated from within the fallen rationale of such minds are of the darkness. "God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all".The message is pretty clear in Acts. We are not to be scared into Christ's arms. We are to come out of desire to be with Him. I don't throw out a doctrine because it's not "scary enough".
Another way you could look at it, Almost there, is that God's children are not all the same on the inside: we all start out at different places. What motivates one saint to seek out the glory of God may be different from that which motivates another. We have in our history some saints who had come to Love God with all of their being, that began their journey towards God out of fear of eternal torments. Other saints maybe not so much fearful of hell were motivated for other reasons. If billions of God's children were motivated by fear of hell, and would not otherwise have come to know God and inherit Eternal Life, would you want to be responsible for taking Eternal Life away from them by convincing them there is no everlasting punishment?The message is pretty clear in Acts. We are not to be scared into Christ's arms. We are to come out of desire to be with Him. I don't throw out a doctrine because it's not "scary enough".
Lazarus and the rich man is not about hell. It's not the point of the parable.
Fear is the beginning of wisdom (it's not the end of wisdom though)The message is pretty clear in Acts. We are not to be scared into Christ's arms. We are to come out of desire to be with Him. I don't throw out a doctrine because it's not "scary enough".
Almost none of the accepted parables are stated to be parables. The lost sheep, the great banquet, etc. It is accepted that they are partly because it is clear that they are and partly because it says clearly in matthew that that is how he taught lessons to the crowds. If Jesus is in the act of teaching in his verbiage to a crowd, it is a parable. You can bank on it. It is what the bible says he did.
Well, I try not to take Revelation too literally.
The seven churches are not lampstands, Jesus is not a lamb and the second death is not a lake of fire. But all three make the point they need to make. Everybody knows what happens when you throw a living thing into a lake of fire. Try it some time. Heck, just make a fire pit and find a dead raccoon on the road somewhere. Throw it in and see what happens.
One of the ways I root out my own "questionable" beliefs is to see if I'm finding a need to do any interpretational gymnastics regarding scripture to keep from damaging any of my dogmas.
I'm using the same tool Jesus used to explain the supernatural. You know, "the kingdom of heaven is like...".
Since none of us were there, we can only speculate. One of those speculations I've heard is that it was actually based on a popular story at the time. What is kind of interesting is that it is clearly not talking about eternity since it does not describe either the Jewish, nor the Christian version of eternity. And it doesn't describe the time between the death of the body and the GWTJ in Jewish nor Christian viewpoints.
And it seems to be about the 5 brothers and, key, the "not believing even if someone is raised from the dead". It appears to be Jesus talking to the descendants of Joseph and looking forward to their impending disbelief even after Jesus' resurrection.
And there is no information about the rich man to suggest that he did anything warranting eternal torture. In fact, there is a chart on the site I linked to that demonstrates that the actual actions of the two men do not warrant either of their conditions, unless one would argue that poverty is, at its core, a virtue of some sort, and being rich, at it's core, is a sin. I'm buying neither of those ideas.
I found out I'm not really allowed to talk about this in this particular thread, so I'm going to have to bow out...
I found out I'm not really allowed to talk about this in this particular thread, so I'm going to have to bow out...
well, that is it. it isn't mercy as we know it. it's God's mercy poured out on the unmerciful, which exposes and condemns the sinner's lack of mercy.
I'm no longer allowed to post in this thread. Sorry.
Have a nice day...
It's not how I feel. It is what was communicated to me in private messages. I'm not allowed to continue . I'd like to stay a member.I'm sorry you feel that way.
I saw no personal flames, which would have nothing to do with the thread itself. You are allowed according to us. If you feel personally not ... edified ... by posting here, that is your right.
Though I should add that if the intent was to change Orthodox teaching, that really isn't possible. Our whole ethos is to hold as doctrine only what we have believed from the very beginning, from the Apostles themselves. It wouldn't be changed by an alternate view drawn from Scripture 2000 years later.
God be with you.
It's not how I feel. It is what was communicated to me in private messages. I'm not allowed to continue . I'd like to stay a member.
I violated this rule:
Congregational Forum Restrictions
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.
It's not how I feel. It is what was communicated to me in private messages. I'm not allowed to continue . I'd like to stay a member.
I violated this rule:
Congregational Forum Restrictions
Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.
the main forum has no debate, but you should be able to debate here in St Justin's, since that is what it is here for.
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