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Hell.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
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I too think Jesus died for our sins. It was a man that hammered the nails in, not a demon or an angel. No righteous man can take another's life except in the direst of circumstances. Jesus Bled. Anything that can bleed can be killed, or will eventually die of old age. So Jesus could have lived the rest of his life with Mary Magdelene in France and fulfilled Dan Brown's fantasies. But He didn't run. He showed us how to live, and how to die.
I believe that His teachings are every bit as important as His death. In fact, if they weren't important, he could have just gathered a crowd together and said" Hi---- Believe I exist, (for those neo-christians) and you will live forever. Drive safe. Have a nice night."
But He didn't. He took His time, sometimes exhausting Himself, to teach people the difference between right and wrong. Without His martyrdom, He would have been just another forgotten philosopher, or street magician. AND.....He saw it coming.
"(13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."~ Gospel of Thomas
I too think Jesus died for our sins. It was a man that hammered the nails in, not a demon or an angel. No righteous man can take another's life except in the direst of circumstances. Jesus Bled. Anything that can bleed can be killed, or will eventually die of old age. So Jesus could have lived the rest of his life with Mary Magdelene in France and fulfilled Dan Brown's fantasies. But He didn't run. He showed us how to live, and how to die.
I believe that His teachings are every bit as important as His death. In fact, if they weren't important, he could have just gathered a crowd together and said" Hi---- Believe I exist, (for those neo-christians) and you will live forever. Drive safe. Have a nice night."
But He didn't. He took His time, sometimes exhausting Himself, to teach people the difference between right and wrong. Without His martyrdom, He would have been just another forgotten philosopher, or street magician. AND.....He saw it coming.
"(13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to someone and tell me whom I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a righteous angel."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your master. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring which I have measured out."
And he took him and withdrew and told him three things. When Thomas returned to his companions, they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"
Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the things which he told me, you will pick up stones and throw them at me; a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."~ Gospel of Thomas
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
Yeah---we have different creation stories, bvut it amounts to the same thing; We wouldn't call it "fallen" nature, but rather "animal" nature. We were ahead of Darwin by about two thousand years. Hence, we have no problem with evolution because it fits in generally with our faith.
"My son, accept the education and the teaching. Do not flee from the education and the teaching, but when you are taught, accept (it) with joy. And if you are educated in any matter, do what is good. You will plait a crown of education by your guiding principle. Put on the holy teaching like a robe. Make yourself noble-minded through good conduct. Obtain the austerity of good discipline. Judge yourself like a wise judge. Do not go astray from my teaching, and do not acquire ignorance, lest you lead your people astray. Do not flee from the divine and the teaching which are within you, for he who is teaching you loves you very much. For he shall bequeath to you a worthy austerity. Cast out the animal nature which is within you, and do not allow base thought to enter you. For ... you know the way which I teach. "~ Sylvanus
n, listen to my teaching, which is good and useful, and end the sleep which weighs heavily upon you. Depart from the forgetfulness which fills you with darkness, since if you were unable to do anything, I would not have said these things to you. But Christ has come in order to give you this gift. Why do you pursue the darkness when the light is at your disposal? Why do you drink stale water, though sweet wine is available for you? Wisdom summons you, yet you desire folly. Not by your own desire do you do these things, but it is the animal nature within you that does them. ~Sylvanus
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Jesus is God, He can do whatever He wants. anything He does is not unnecessary, but rather it is necessary. He is not bound to the limits of human sin and fallen nature. nothing contains God, God contains all. lies do not set the standard, God sets the standard. God did not say "aww shucks the devil/humans done got me in a trap and now I have to do this or that to save the human race due to the actions that they took" rather He holds his hand up in heaven and says "there is no God beside me." in His hand, is my heart. and that is how I know God is Love and He never gives up, because a lie is not stronger than Truth, all will be saved from the lie, that God is not Love. because He gets to say what His attributes do and mean, not fallen man and their opinions of what this or that word means.
the thing that people say will suffer forever or be deleted. you know it as in, me and you and that guy with the duck face.
holy holy holy
Isa 6:2-10 (ESV)
(6:2) Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. (6:3) And one called to another and said: ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; ​​​​​​​the whole earth is full of his glory!” ​​​ (6:4) And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. (6:5) And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” (6:6) Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. (6:7) And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.” (6:8) And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (6:9) And he said, “Go, and say to this people: ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​“‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; ​​​​​​​keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ ​​​ (6:10) ​​​​​​​​Make the heart of this people dull, ​​​​​​​and their ears heavy, ​​​​​​​and blind their eyes; ​​​​​​​lest they see with their eyes, ​​​​​​​and hear with their ears, ​​​​​​​and understand with their hearts, ​​​​​​​and turn and be healed.” ​​​
those beings are made of pure God Love. do you know how I know? because those being were God. that was the Trinity right there. the Lord and the 2 Seraphim. the Holy Spirit and Christ. but can you not see the Truth? God looks like evil darkness and He is divine darkness. God speaks love but the hardness of the heart turns those people blind. Holy Holy Holy. you tell me what it means.
if the earth is full of His glory, then how is it that it is going to perish forever or be condemned forever? they sawed Isaiah in half, guess who they were. the religious folks. but its hard to believe when your heart is hard. am i accusing you? no but i'm trying to let you see your chains so that you may have the chains of Love instead. they cut isaiah in half, and even his death speaks how men read the word of God. they do not see it as 1, they have to divide it, like they divided isaiah.
God is single, all He is Himself. we can not take out all his different characters and dress them up. but my poor brother, all those characteristic that you say God has, they are dung if you apply human understanding to them. because men do not know Gods character. furthermore you tried to define what I mean when i said God is Love. but you can not define what Love is because the Spirit of God defines what Love is, and not the Spirit of man. you know what Love is. and i know what Love is.
Isaiah saw God and when he saw God he saw what himself was without God. dirty and unable to speak. but then Christ made him clean, and so he could say “Here am I! Send me.” isaiah became like God, and so his words were like God. and men can not understand the words unless God makes them.
free will does not choose God because mans free will is a fallen free will because free will is a character of God. true free will in God is of God and is in God and is with God. the free will that men often speak about is nothing more than a blindness and a lie, a fallen good, and you know what good is when it is fallen? it is evil. and so it picks evil. but when God touches us, we are cured and we can pick God.
omnomnomnom
God is Himself. a Father that Loves all his children. i just told my pet dog that I love her and that she deserves all the love that i can give her. so i know that God Loves more than that and never runs out of Love to give. and Grace to give. and Goodness to give. eternal torture, or deletion imply that God has stopped giving. God does not change but men do not understand what God is, because they use their own strength rather than Gods to learn about God. and then they think God has told them, because they read it in the bible. and they believe that God told them what He said in the bible. God did tell them, but it did not stop those men from being blind and deaf. knowledge puffs up, everything from God destroys you when it is not in God, because if you are not in God then all you have are distortions of what God is. and a distortion of Truth is a lie.
God is often cryptic, I try to parrot Him. :o
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It's not a problem. I am not bound by Protestant rules. If a book is useful, I'll use it. If not, reading the book doesn't hurt me. I read other books that are not in the Protestant Bible.
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
That is a common misconception. Gnosis is knowledge, particularly divine knowledge, learned by experience, and by personal revelation of Jesus Christ, as pertaining to the nature of God. It is not particular to just Gnostics, which in scholarly terms now means "pre-catholic". Anyone in any denomination, can, and do, receive gnosis, though they may call it by another term.
Gnostic, was used as a derogatory term to describe all non catholics by Ireneus. Historically, the only self described Gnostics were Sethians. Modern Christian Gnostics place particular emphasis on John 17:3 as well as make use of non catholic materials.
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Christopher0121
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I met a Christian woman named Ruby a few years ago. Ruby is a nurse who works in a nursing home. She is very big on Bible study, prayer, meditating upon the word, and gifts of healing. She was charming, radiant, positive, loving, upbeat and very inspirational. I sincerely felt like she had the Holy Ghost. She sincerely believes the Bible, she happens to be Oneness (former ALJC), believes in the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, and all the “gifts of the Spirit”… and yet she doesn’t classify herself as an “Evangelical”, “Charismatic”, or “Pentecostal” Christian.
So I asked her what brand of “Christian” she was. Her answer troubled me.
Ruby classified herself as a “Christian Spiritualist” or a “Christian Mystic”. I was a bit taken aback, because I didn’t know exactly what that meant. She explained that most Christians are “religious” and not “spiritual”. They are wrapped up in the traditional dogmas of their church or denomination. While she believes that the Bible is the Word of God, she also believes that the Bible doesn’t tell us everything about spiritual things, some things have to be learned by “walking in the Spirit”. She went on to say most Christians define salvation according to a decision they made at one time to be a follower of Jesus. Or they define salvation in accordance to the sacraments of their church. However, she feels that once one has come to Christ and has received the baptism of the Holy Ghost they must spiritually progress into the fullness of spirituality, spiritual truths, and spiritual living. For the most part, she embraces nearly all major Christian doctrines.
I asked her if she believed in anything outside of the Bible like the book of Mormon, the Vedas, crystals, horoscopes, or any other spiritual source of information. She stated that she whole heartedly only believes in the Bible. However, she explained that she also believes that some things can be found in the Bible that the Christian religion rejects. For example she believes we can find the following in the Bible:
-Praying until one enters a trance wherein they commune one on one with God directly through the Holy Ghost.
-Gifts of supernatural healing.
-The ministry of angels.
-Casting out of devils & demons, banishing.
-Speaking in tongues.
-Interpreting tongues.
-All the gifts of the Spirit.
-That (in a sense) we become angels after death.
-That the Zodiac (the Mazzaroth, Hb.) is something originally ordained of God that has been distorted by Satan.
-Universal Reconciliation
-That some human spirits are reincarnated for a divine purpose.
-Hauntings.
-Prayer cloths, candles, and anointing oil.
-That there are prophets and seers alive today.
-That we are to strive to be one with God through the Holy Spirit as Jesus was one with God through the Holy Spirit.
Those are the only things that I can remember her talking about. Some of what you've said just reminds me of Ruby. She was very interesting. Of course, I was a lay minister in a local Pentecostal church at the time. Though she was one of the most loving, kind, and interesting people you could meet, I don't think she'd ever fit in with most main stream Evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, or Fundamentalist churches. -Gifts of supernatural healing.
-The ministry of angels.
-Casting out of devils & demons, banishing.
-Speaking in tongues.
-Interpreting tongues.
-All the gifts of the Spirit.
-That (in a sense) we become angels after death.
-That the Zodiac (the Mazzaroth, Hb.) is something originally ordained of God that has been distorted by Satan.
-Universal Reconciliation
-That some human spirits are reincarnated for a divine purpose.
-Hauntings.
-Prayer cloths, candles, and anointing oil.
-That there are prophets and seers alive today.
-That we are to strive to be one with God through the Holy Spirit as Jesus was one with God through the Holy Spirit.
Do you think she was a Gnostic Christian?
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Soulgazer
Christian Gnostic
No, I don't, there are just some things that we don't have in common. A Christian Gnostic places a lot of emphasis on education, particularly in the realms of science, philosophy and psychology. Our forebears believed that Jesus taught a type of evolution called "emanation" wherein everything that exists is a derivation of whatever preceded it. Carl Jung, one of the fathers of modern Psychology based his theories on gnostic text, and our forebears did not hide their admiration for Plato.
What we would share in common, is that the nature of Jesus was the perfect image of the nature of the Father. However, we would reject anything as false that was dissimilar to the nature of Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels. And of course, we continue to reject the teachings of the prophets because of Jesus statement that all those that had come before Him were as thieves and robbers. We reject the idea of accurate prophesying after the Baptist, for "the head of prophesy was cut off with John"(Apocryphon of James). We don't practice astrology, for Jesus took away a third of it's power(cf pistis Sophia), but astrological signs have been discovered as mosaics in many ancient Jewish temples.
I HAVE found, that the gift of instantaneous healing by laying on of hands, or aura manipulation is common with Christian mystics, as well as Gnostics, so the Lord must approve.
Mark 9:38-39
Or, in a text you would not be familiar with; "{Jesus said}"Let not the Kingdom of Heaven wither away. For it is like a date palm shoot whose fruits poured down around it. It put forth leaves and, when they budded, they caused the productivity of the date palm to dry up. Thus it is also with the fruit which came from this single root; when the fruit was picked, fruits were collected by many harvesters. It would indeed be good if it were possible to produce these new plants now; for then you would find the Kingdom."
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Evergreen48
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Matthew 26: 51. "And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54. But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
But to die of old age, or any other malady ___ not a chance. You see, "the wages of sin is death". Jesus could collect no such wage as this because he never sinned.
P.S. I am not trying to start a fight, but admittedly it is hard to pass up so much ammunition as you give me to fight with.
What does its being a "man who hammered the nails in" versus "a demon or an angel" doing that, have to do with anything on this subject, or is that just to fill in the gaps to make your post longer?
No one is saying that Jesus could not be killed, as it is very obvious that he could be. But he could have only been killed if he allowed and agreed to be.
Matthew 26: 51. "And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54. But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"
But to die of old age, or any other malady ___ not a chance. You see, "the wages of sin is death". Jesus could collect no such wage as this because he never sinned.
P.S. I am not trying to start a fight, but admittedly it is hard to pass up so much ammunition as you give me to fight with.
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hmm i have not a full vision of it. I see that Jesus does not want his disciples to die, they seem very important to Him.
notice how Jesus agrees with what i said:
Mark 14:36 (ESV)
(14:36) And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
if they are possible for the Father, then they are possible for the Son. the Father does what he wants, and so the Son also does what He wants. if you have seen the father then you have seen the Son, if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. but let a bishop tell you what it means, I just found this guy and his word spoke what i could not. its long but it will give you an understanding who of Jesus is in the garden.
Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria said:
IV. - An Exposition of Luk 22:46, Etc.
This prayer He also offered up Himself, falling repeatedly on His face; and on both occasions He urged His request for not entering into temptation: both when He prayed, “If it be possible, let this cup pass from me;” and when He said, “Nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt.” For He spoke of not entering into temptation, and He made that His prayer; but He did not ask that He should have no trial whatsoever in these circumstances, or that no manner of hardship should ever befall Him. For in the most general application it holds good, that it does not appear to be possible for any man to remain altogether without experience of ill: for, as one says, “The whole world lieth in wickedness;” and again, “The most of the days of man are labour and trouble,” as men themselves also admit. Short is our life, and full of sorrow. Howbeit it was not meet that He should bid them pray directly that that curse might not be fulfilled, which is expressed thus: “Cursed is the ground in thy works: in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;” or thus, “Earth thou art, and unto earth shall thou return.” For which reason the Holy Scriptures, that indicate in many various ways the dire distressfulness of life, designate it as a valley of weeping. And most of all indeed is this world a scene of pain to the saints, to whom He addresses this word, and He cannot lie in uttering it: “In the world ye shall have tribulation.” And to the same effect also He says by the prophet, “Many are the afflictions of the righteous.” But I suppose that He refers to this entering not into temptation, when He speaks in the prophet’s words of being delivered out of the afflictions. For He adds, “The Lord will deliver him out of them all.” And this is just in accordance with the Saviour’s word, whereby He promises that they will overcome their afflictions, and that they will participate in that victory which He has won for them. For after saying, “In the world ye shall have tribulation,” He added, “But be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” And again, He taught them to pray that they might not fall into temptation, when He said, “And lead us not into temptation;” which means, “Suffer us not to fall into temptation.” And to show that this did not imply they should not be tempted, but really that they should be delivered from the evil, He added, “But deliver us from evil.” But perhaps you will say, What difference is there between being tempted, and falling or entering into temptation? Well, if one is overcome of evil - and he will be overcome unless he struggles against it himself, and unless God protects him with His shield - that man has entered into temptation, and is in it, and is brought under it like one that is led captive. But if one withstands and endures, that man is indeed tempted; but he has not entered into temptation, or fallen under it. Thus Jesus was led up of the Spirit, not indeed to enter into temptation, but “to be tempted of the devil.” And Abraham, again, did not enter into temptation, neither did God lead him into temptation, but He tempted (tried) him; yet He did not drive him into temptation. The Lord Himself, moreover, tempted (tried) the disciples. And thus the wicked one, when he tempts us, draws us into the temptations, as dealing himself with the temptations of evil; but God, when He tempts (tries), adduces the temptations as one untempted of evil. For God, it is said, “cannot be tempted of evil.” The devil, therefore, drives us on by violence, drawing us to destruction; but God leads us by the hand, training us for our salvation.
if I could find a bishop as that man was, i would go to church everyday for as long as I could.
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Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Yes to a certain extent. Whenever you go beyond the bible to things that are not really associated with it or have a negative inference in it and accept them as "good" you can be headed down the path of gnosticism. As for the mysticism etc., I have come across many what I call "spiritual" Christians that instead of standing on the bible first and foremost they end up standing on what they "feel" in the spirit and at times forget to test those spirits with sound biblical understanding. If you query them about their knowledge of biblical doctrines they will be already wrong on many fronts or may just be outright ignorant of what the bible truly teaches. The fact she believes in oneness is a sign that her theology has issues already. The oneness crowd I have come across tends to desire a higher emphasis on spiritual gifts than biblical knowledge IMO.
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