Hell.

[Timothew]

κατακαίω is the word Strong's concordance gives for the verse in Matthew
Matthew 3 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

As for Exodus – the Hebrew is בָּעַר which is 'to burn'
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I'd be interested here if you're referring to the GREEK of the OT, which Greek version are you referring to? Is this the Septuagint?

Yes, the greek version, the Septuagint.
Exodus 1 Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics

When I read Exodus in the Septuagint I was stuck by this passage. How the same word was used for the burning burning bush, but used negatively. The bush was NOT consumed by the fire. Except for the negative ou, it is the same word used for the chaff which IS consumed by the fire. Since the chaff represents what will happen to the wicked on judgment day, it is important to notice that the chaff is burnt up by the fire. The word means completely consumed. When the greeks wanted to say the bush was NOT consumed, they used the word for "completely consumed by fire" and added the ou-negative.

As for Exodus – the Hebrew is בָּעַר which is 'to burn'

When you said the Hebrew word means to burn, why did you leave off part of the definition? You shouldn't have provided the link. You had me convinced that the hebrew was substantially different than the greek, which sometimes happens. (I can't read hebrew, only greek)
But I clicked your link, and checked the definition and found this:


1) to burn, consume, kindle, be kindled
a) (Qal)
1) to begin to burn, be kindled, start burning
2) to burn, be burning
3) to burn, consume
4) Jehovah's wrath, human wrath (fig.)
b) (Piel)
1) to kindle, burn
2) to consume, remove (of guilt) (fig.)
c) (Hiphil)
1) to kindle
2) to burn up
3) to consume (destroy)
d) (Pual) to burn

 

[Timothew]

Exodus 3:2
ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος κυρίου ἐν φλογὶ πυρὸς ἐκ τοῦ βάτου καὶ ὁρᾷ ὅτι ὁ βάτος καίεται πυρί ὁ δὲ βάτος οὐ κατεκαίετο
The angel of the lord appeared to him in flaming fire from the bush and he saw that the bush burned with fire but the bush was not burned up.

Matthew 3:12 (b)
τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ.
but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

 

[Christopher0121]

No, Universalism says all are saved and goin' to heaven whether we like it or not.
Your definition is true for Calvinism as much as it is for Universalism.

While I am not a Universalist, I have to say that I don't think this is true of Universalism.

In the Universalism that I am familiar with... Hell is a very dark and terrible terrible reality for lost souls.

Universalism does allow for free will. You see, in Universalism there is a "pruning" or a "purifying" of the soul. Hell is the Refiner's fire. Souls that rejected God's love, mercy, and authority are confined there to be purified. This purification is also adequate punishment for their wickedness. In addition, those who have never heard of Christ are purified in this fire. The only way to escape from this horrible experience is to allow Christ to cleanse you with His blood and baptize you in His Spirit. Those who find themselves experiencing the realities of Hell will find their sinful and selfish will broken. Eventually they will willingly surrender their will to the love and authority of God in Christ and will bow their knee and confess Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

In the Universalism that I am familiar with Hell is no joking matter. It is VERY serious. When one resists the love and mercy of God, they are setting themselves up for great trials, pain, torments, and suffering. The duration of Hell is unknown. However, in Universalism, the torments do come to an end as every last soul that God has created surrenders to Him, learning that sin must be punished, and that apart from God there is only suffering and darkness.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and the murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

​

Consider the meaning of "brimstone":

2303 // yeion // theion // thi'-on //

probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n

AV - brimstone 7; 7

1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having
power to purify, and to ward off disease
​

So, it is my understanding that Universalism affirms free will. The free will of both God and man. Man may freely rebel from God. But God will freely choose to break that man's will. Even the changing of one's mind after a realization is a demonstration of free will.

 

[x141]

The son of perdition in each of us is being purged as we ... speak ... from the deep sleep of the man the woman was revealed as from the deep sleep of the woman the son will be revealed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, the greek version, the Septuagint.
Exodus 1 Greek OT: Septuagint with Diacritics

When I read Exodus in the Septuagint I was stuck by this passage. How the same word was used for the burning burning bush, but used negatively. The bush was NOT consumed by the fire.
Except for the negative ou, it is the same word used for the chaff which IS consumed by the fire. Since the chaff represents what will happen to the wicked on judgment day, it is important to notice that the chaff is burnt up by the fire. The word means completely consumed. When the greeks wanted to say the bush was NOT consumed, they used the word for "completely consumed by fire" and added the ou-negative.

But I clicked your link, and checked the definition and found this:

1) to burn, consume, kindle, be kindled a) (Qal)
1) to begin to burn, be kindled, start burning
2) to burn, be burning
3) to burn, consume
4) Jehovah's wrath, human wrath (fig.) b) (Piel)
1) to kindle, burn
2) to consume, remove (of guilt) (fig.) c) (Hiphil)
1) to kindle
2) to burn up
3) to consume (destroy) d) (Pual) to burn

Acts 7 also brings up that event, and curiously, the parable of the rich man and lazarus also shows a man being pained by a flame. But instead of him calling out to Moses, he is instead calling out to Abraham. Thoughts?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Acts 7:30 And of being filled forty years, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a Messenger of the Lord, in a Flame of fire of a bush
38 This is the one-becoming in the Assembly in the wilderness, with the Messenger the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers who receives living oracles to give to us.
[Luke 16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in the Flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]

 

[Soulgazer]

Acts 7 also brings up that event, and curiously, the parable of the rich man and lazarus also shows a man being pained by a flame. But instead of him calling out to Moses, he is instead calling out to Abraham. Thoughts? *

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Acts 7:30 And of being filled forty years, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a Messenger of the Lord, in a Flame of fire of a bush
38 This is the one-becoming in the Assembly in the wilderness, with the Messenger the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers who receives living oracles to give to us.
[Luke 16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in the Flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]

*I can tell you what I know from the histories. Beginning with Enoch, and depending on the schools, the Prophets and Kings were viewed as "Hired Shepherds" who had failed the Father(All those who have ever come before me are as thieves and robbers). Acts has several instances where Moses gets dissed. Stephan is stoned to death for blasphemy against Moses, and both Paul and the author of Hebrews claim that the Law was given to Moses by angels, as opposed to the orthodox view of direct from the finger of God. This was a stoning offense. I suspect that as Christians(weren't called that yet) were increasingly being turned out of the temples, there was a backlash against Moses, who was the rockstar of the Jewish faith.

 

[Evergreen48]

Do you sin?

If you sin are you separated from God?

Do you cease to exist?

Yes, I sin. But that does not separate me from God. If it did, I would not be convicted of that sin and I would never repent. No one is separated from God as long as they live and breathe. But when that ceases, unless we have put on immortality, we are truly separated from God.

 

[Timothew]

Do you sin?

If you sin are you separated from God?

Do you cease to exist?

Do you sin?
Do you know that the wages of sin is death?
Who will pay the wages of sin for you?
You or Jesus Christ?
If you pay the wages of sin, which is death, will you be alive?
If you are not alive, how will you feel the torture of supposed hell?

 

[Evergreen48]

Do you sin? Yes. Can't help it, we were born into death wearing monkey suits, with monkey instincts and limited capacity for love.

You should speak for yourself only. I was not born into death, neither was I wearing a monkey suit. Even though I was concieved of sinful parents, at my conception God breathed the breath of life into me of which was spoken in Gen. 2:7, and I became a living soul. Not so of monkeys or any other form of life except humankind. That is what separates me from monkeys and all other non human animals who do not and cannot sin. I was born very much alive but I died the spiritual death when I sinned.

If you sin are you separated from God? No. Sin keeps you from seeing that you can never be separated from your Father's love.

Do you cease to exist? What is existence in a world where you are born dead, compared to the existence that is coming when we shall know all things and be freed from the constraints and constant demands of physical limitations?

Your sins will be burned up in a flaming blaze of glory, every knee shall bow and know that Christ is Lord, as Christ is triumphant and will never lose a single soul that the Father has delivered into His gentle hands.

Just as Philippians 2:10 records, every knee should bow to him and every tongue should confess to our Lord and Savior, for he is worthy to recieve all honour and praise and glory. But that is not to say that everyone will, it simply says that everyone should. Isaiah 45:23 speaks of the universal spread of the gospel 'unto the ends of the earth' [verse 22] and speaks collectively of every national knee bowing and every national collective tongue confessing, but not each individual knee and tongue.

My 'sins being burned up in a flaming blaze of glory' is very poetic, but is not scriptural.

 

[Soulgazer]

You should speak for yourself only. I was not born into death, neither was I wearing a monkey suit. Even though I was concieved of sinful parents, at my conception God breathed the breath of life into me of which was spoken in Gen. 2:7, and I became a living soul. Not so of monkeys or any other form of life except humankind. That is what separates me from monkeys and all other non human animals who do not and cannot sin. I was born very much alive but I died the spiritual death when I sinned.



Just as Philippians 2:10 records, every knee should bow to him and every tongue should confess to our Lord and Savior, for he is worthy to recieve all honour and praise and glory. But that is not to say that everyone will, it simply says that everyone should. Isaiah 45:23 speaks of the universal spread of the gospel 'unto the ends of the earth' [verse 22] and speaks collectively of every national knee bowing and every national collective tongue confessing, but not each individual knee and tongue.

My 'sins being burned up in a flaming blaze of glory' is very poetic, but is not scriptural.

Either that, when the lights go out the room goes dark.

Glad to hear you are never going to grow old and your flesh die, nor do you posses the fight or flight mechanism. That is good news. I on the other hand, was born into a world of death, forced into this monkey suit. It's been terrible. I have had to compete for food and shelter, and even though I tried to fight it, monkey suits have a mind of their own. Younger, I could wake up with an erection as hormones and chemicals flooded through this meat prison. When there was not enough to eat, I could get stomach cramps...and believe it or not, when faced with a bully the fight or flight mechanism would kick in, and if I couldn't run I'd use my fists. Now this world of death is catching up with me, my hair is turning silver, my muscles and skin feel like "not enough butter on too much bread". Monkey suits. You are indeed fortunate to have missed it.

 

[Christopher0121]

Yes, I sin. But that does not separate me from God. If it did, I would not be convicted of that sin and I would never repent. No one is separated from God as long as they live and breathe. But when that ceases, unless we have put on immortality, we are truly separated from God.

I would like to expand on something. Being separated from God can be seen as not "experiencing" God's love or presence. When we sin, God's love and presence doesn't "go away". However, guilt, fear, and shame can cause us not to be able to feel or experience God's love and presence. Through confession and repentance we get feelings of guilt, fear, and shame out of the way and we begin to experience the love and presence of the divine that was always there and never left.

For example, Adam and Eve. After they sinned they realized their nakedness and made aprons of figs (shame). When they heard God coming into the garden, they fled and hid themselves in the trees (fear). God then asked, "Adam, where art thou?" Now, we know that an all knowing God isn't asking the question for His own benefit. He was asking it for Adam's. He wanted Adam to consider the fact that he had attempted to separate himself from God, his Father. God's question was to cause Adam to think, "Where am I? What am I doing?" When God confronted them Adam blamed God, Eve blamed the serpent. They wanted to pass the buck (guilt). Did God ever stop loving them? No. Did God depart from them? No. But THEY hid themselves from God and couldn't experience Him through their guilt, fear, and shame. Separation. We most often cut ourselves off from God emotionally because of our sin. God covered their nakedness Himself and therefore eliminated the barriers to His love and mercy. Just as He did our own upon the cross.

So, can we be separated from God while we live? Yes and no. It depends upon what one means by being "separated" from God.

But when that ceases, unless we have put on immortality, we are truly separated from God

What makes you think that one can be separated from God even in death? Don't you realize that even if we make our bed in hell (however one wishes to define it), God is there? One cannot escape God. God also "loses" no one. And, many have noted that if Jesus has the "keys to death and hell", He holds the power to open and close the gates of death and hell at will. This would mean that even death itself doesn't separate us from God's power to purify and save.

The doctrine of Hell is interesting in that many devout Christians interpret it differently. Some Christians say that Hell is a place of eternal torments where souls will languish in agony for all eternity, for ever and ever, without end. Some Christians say that Hell is a place where God is to destroy the body and soul of the wicked, vaporizing both them and their evil forever. And yet other Christians view Hell as a terrible place of spiritual judgment and purification. A refiner's fire wherein all sin, self, and rebellion are burned away as dross. Where the soul that rejected, or never knew Christ, is purified. And when that purification is done, every man will be delivered by the one who holds the keys to death and hell, in their own order. Eventually every human soul will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour. God's plan to save mankind will have succeeded 100%. And all will rejoice, realizing that it was only through the blood of the Lamb of God that God was justified in saving all. For without Christ, ALL would have perished.

Now, I don't "know" which doctrine is true. However, as individuals we have to evaluate a doctrine and compare it both to Scripture and the Spirit and nature of God. Which doctrine best exemplifies God's nature? Which doctrine brings God the most glory?

 

[Evergreen48]

Glad to hear you are never going to grow old and your flesh die, nor do you posses the fight or flight mechanism. That is good news.Glad to hear you are never going to grow old and your flesh die,

From whom did you hear that I was never going to grow old or my flesh was never going to die? Certainly not I. Did you think that I meant to say that my flesh and blood body was going to put on immortality? I [my personal identity] has already put on immortality, not my flesh and blood body. "The flesh profits nothing". Its simply temporary housing for my personal identity.

nor do you posses the fight or flight mechanism. That is good news. I on the other hand, was born into a world of death, forced into this monkey suit. It's been terrible. I have had to compete for food and shelter, and even though I tried to fight it, monkey suits have a mind of their own. Younger, I could wake up with an erection as hormones and chemicals flooded through this meat prison. When there was not enough to eat, I could get stomach cramps...and believe it or not, when faced with a bully the fight or flight mechanism would kick in, and if I couldn't run I'd use my fists. Now this world of death is catching up with me, my hair is turning silver, my muscles and skin feel like "not enough butter on too much bread". Monkey suits. You are indeed fortunate to have missed it.

Your original comment was WE were born into death. Now you back track and say that YOU were born into a WORLD of death. And really I could care less about how life affected you before you got old.

And whom do you say forced you into your monkey suit?

 

[Soulgazer]

From whom did you hear that I was never going to grow old or my flesh was never going to die? Certainly not I. Did you think that I meant to say that my flesh and blood body was going to put on immortality? I [my personal identity] has already put on immortality, not my flesh and blood body. "The flesh profits nothing". Its simply temporary housing for my personal identity.



Your original comment was WE were born into death. Now you back track and say that YOU were born into a WORLD of death. And really I could care less about how life affected you before you got old.

And whom do you say forced you into your monkey suit?

You asked me to speak for myself. You said that YOU were neither born into a world of death, nor forced into a monkey suit. I spoke for myself, while congratulating you on avoiding it. Now, I Should care about how life affected you. Why? Because I am a christian, and in my world, (again, speaking for myself)that's what christians do. Perhaps if I knew you better, but that is not really an excuse.


I don't remember even filling out an application to be born, so I can't say who forced me into this suit, yet here I am. I would have chosen to have no constraints of flesh whatsoever, but apparently there wasn't a check box for that.

I know that the flesh profits nothing. I really know it. So I don't find it distasteful at all to realize I'm in a monkey suit. I suppose it is better than a dinosaur suit, as this one came with thumbs. It's just flesh, and needs what all flesh needs, and subject to all of the chemicals and instincts that have evolved into it. It's just a suit. But, since the flesh profits nothing, it's just a meat prison.

 

[Soulgazer]

Now, I don't "know" which doctrine is true. However, as individuals we have to evaluate a doctrine and compare it both to Scripture and the Spirit and nature of God. Which doctrine best exemplifies God's nature? Which doctrine brings God the most glory?

Nobody knows. Though some think they know because they believe. But belief really just fills in the gaps until truth is revealed. I have read that all truth comes from God. So I try to leave myself open to anything and everything that is evidenced to be true, and replace what I used to believe while incorporating the new truth's into my personal faith. Now, this is a step out on faith, that all truth does indeed come from God, but....you have to start somewhere.

 

[Evergreen48]

I would like to expand on something. Being separated from God can be seen as not "experiencing" God's love or presence. When we sin, God's love and presence doesn't "go away". However, guilt, fear, and shame can cause us not to be able to feel or experience God's love and presence. Through confession and repentance we get feelings of guilt, fear, and shame out of the way and we begin to experience the love and presence of the divine that was always there and never left.

For example, Adam and Eve. After they sinned they realized their nakedness and made aprons of figs (shame). When they heard God coming into the garden, they fled and hid themselves in the trees (fear). God then asked, "Adam, where art thou?" Now, we know that an all knowing God isn't asking the question for His own benefit. He was asking it for Adam's. He wanted Adam to consider the fact that he had attempted to separate himself from God, his Father. God's question was to cause Adam to think, "Where am I? What am I doing?" When God confronted them Adam blamed God, Eve blamed the serpent. They wanted to pass the buck (guilt). Did God ever stop loving them? No. Did God depart from them? No. But THEY hid themselves from God and couldn't experience Him through their guilt, fear, and shame. Separation. We most often cut ourselves off from God emotionally because of our sin. God covered their nakedness Himself and therefore eliminated the barriers to His love and mercy. Just as He did our own upon the cross.

So, can we be separated from God while we live? Yes and no. It depends upon what one means by being "separated" from God.

Yes, I am aware that some see separation from God as not experiencing his love or presence. As I have already commented, I don't believe we are separated from God by sinning, for if we were, among other things, we would not even be aware that there is a God to whom we are responsible.

What makes you think that one can be separated from God even in death? Don't you realize that even if we make our bed in hell (however one wishes to define it), God is there? One cannot escape God. God also "loses" no one.

Job 24: 19. "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. 20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."

Hardly anyone is forgotten so soon as when the grave has consumed them. Most everyone is remembered by someone at least until their generation has passed away. It seems like the more notoriously wicked one is, the longer they are remembered by their human constituents. So, that could only mean that it is God who forgets them. Now, if God forgets a person, that is total separation from him.

When we consider that Psalm 139 where it is said that if he made his bed in sheol (the grave) God's spirit would be there, was written by a righteous man whom God had purged and forgiven him of his sins and shortcomings, we can see how it could be said of him and others of like faith that God would be present with him even in the grave. But scripture says this is not true of those who are called 'the wicked' in the OT.

It is not a question of our 'escaping God'. The only way one can escape God is if he allows it. It is also not a question of God 'losing' anyone. God knows those who are his and he will never lose any of them.

And, many have noted that if Jesus has the "keys to death and hell", He holds the power to open and close the gates of death and hell at will. This would mean that even death itself doesn't separate us from God's power to purify and save.

Well, of course everything is subject to his almighty power. God can do anything he wants or wishes to do. But evidently, according to scripture, he does not want or wish to purify the 'wicked' after their death. The 'wicked' have the same opportunity at immortality while living as do the 'righteous'. I do believe that if you have not been 'purified and saved' before death, there will not be anything left to be purified and saved after death.

The doctrine of Hell is interesting in that many devout Christians interpret it differently. Some Christians say that Hell is a place of eternal torments where souls will languish in agony for all eternity, for ever and ever, without end. Some Christians say that Hell is a place where God is to destroy the body and soul of the wicked, vaporizing both them and their evil forever. And yet other Christians view Hell as a terrible place of spiritual judgment and purification. A refiner's fire wherein all sin, self, and rebellion are burned away as dross. Where the soul that rejected, or never knew Christ, is purified. And when that purification is done, every man will be delivered by the one who holds the keys to death and hell, in their own order. Eventually every human soul will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour. God's plan to save mankind will have succeeded 100%. And all will rejoice, realizing that it was only through the blood of the Lamb of God that God was justified in saving all. For without Christ, ALL would have perished.

Now, I don't "know" which doctrine is true. However, as individuals we have to evaluate a doctrine and compare it both to Scripture and the Spirit and nature of God. Which doctrine best exemplifies God's nature? Which doctrine brings God the most glory?

Personally I don't have any problem choosing which of these doctrines, because I don't believe any of them. I don't believe that there is such a place as the 'hell' that is purported by all of these doctrines. In the New Testament we have what was a literal place which at that time was called Gehenna, and we have hades which was the New Testament equivalent to the Old Testament sheol , which simply meant the common resting place for all of the dead.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, the greek version, the Septuagint.

How do you cope with using this when it has OT books most Protestants' bibles don't use?

 

[Noxot]

Deleted for decency (and so some info can stay unsifted). While I know His Spirit is inexhaustible and irresistible, Universalism is not true, not at all. If it is, then Jesus' death was unnecessary, as God judges people based on His own judgements, not whether or not people accepted the offer of Jesus.

It can if empowered by God's almighty Spirit.

nah Jesus does what ever he wants. it is never unnecessary. have faith in God. mankind is the problem. delete for decency? why when you can transmute it into life? God has the power. you don't think God has power to make everyone better and for them to keep free will? its an easy thing, all things are easy for God. God is past knowledge. God is past understanding.

the darkness will make you see, because the darkness is blinding light of love. men do not understand it, they think it is an evil thing. i saw God, he touched my heart. God is Love. I can't see God, he touched my heart.

free will, God gives us free will. and like I said. we are so much better with free will in the plans God has for us. because I already am tasting the feeling, that i want God. and it is so much better than the lesser reality of not having free will. I get to pick the good of the land? God, thank you God. I know you are good. when I see you, I turn to you. when I look away, I hate you and I don't want to exist.

but i know now, that it was wickedness in my heart that said "delete me" and at the same time I accused God of being wicked for making people suffer forever. accusers accusing God, now that is the problem. lies are the problem. when the lies are gone, we can use free will correctly. when lies are there, free will is a device for evil. the best best reality is for free will to chose God. and we will have the best best reality.

but that is a hard saying because of the hardness of mens hearts. but my heart melts like wax because of the Lord who "I Am" Fire.

all things are turned wrong when we are not in Christ and His Holy Spirit. nothing is right. nothing is right because we don't have sight.


so let the little fire destroy this ocean because you have faith that that can be, how much more will God destroy the abyss within us? and make it so, that the abyss is called by a new name, as it has the Little Fire called God. who consumes us with His Love.

my dear, the beginning is Faith, the end is Love. and Love never ends.

1Cor 13:13 (ESV)
(13:13) So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[ChristianT]

nah Jesus does what ever he wants. it is never unnecessary. have faith in God. mankind is the problem.

Ok. Why would Jesus die on a cross if He didn't have to? Makes no sense. Just forgive everyone of sins if you can. However, if God could die for our sake so our sins may be forgiven (because there's nothing we could do to remove our sins), That sounds extremely merciful!

delete for decency?

Yes, I said something that I removed because it had nothing to do with the topic.

why when you can transmute it into life?

What's 'it'?

God has the power. you don't think God has power to make everyone better and for them to keep free will? its an easy thing, all things are easy for God. God is past knowledge. God is past understanding.

I know, I actually do. Nice how questions work.

the darkness will make you see, because the darkness is blinding light of love. men do not understand it, they think it is an evil thing. i saw God, he touched my heart. God is Love. I can't see God, he touched my heart.

So God is a blinding light of seemingly evil darkness? k. I believe God is a blinding light.(period) I also have been filled with His Spirit. God is love, however he is also Holy, Holy, Holy. That's the only quality glorified 3x. He's a triune, loving, Holy, righteous, inexhaustible, immanent, transcendent, almighty, etc. God is not just a mushy-gooshy feeling (which is what love is generally known as)

free will, God gives us free will. and like I said. we are so much better with free will in the plans God has for us. because I already am tasting the feeling, that i want God. and it is so much better than the lesser reality of not having free will. I get to pick the good of the land? God, thank you God. I know you are good. when I see you, I turn to you. when I look away, I hate you and I don't want to exist.

I have no problem with biblical free-will (God knows the outcome of our decisions, including our decisions themselves... nothin' surprises Him, yet He lets us do the walking)

but i know now, that it was wickedness in my heart that said "delete me" and at the same time I accused God of being wicked for making people suffer forever. accusers accusing God, now that is the problem. lies are the problem. when the lies are gone, we can use free will correctly. when lies are there, free will is a device for evil. the best best reality is for free will to chose God. and we will have the best best reality.

Le Bible says free will can't choose God. So... yeah. I'll let ya chew on that gumdrop.

but that is a hard saying because of the hardness of mens hearts. but my heart melts like wax because of the Lord who the Fire.

But remember, God is not just love!

all things are turned wrong when we are not in Christ and His Holy Spirit. nothing is right. nothing is right because we don't have sight.

so let the little fire destroy this ocean because you have faith that that can be, how much more will God destroy the abyss within us? and make it so, that the abyss is called by a new name, as it has the little fire called God.

Es muy cryptic.

 

[Soulgazer]

Interesting. My take on it is that Jesus had to die a martyr's death. What would have happened to His teachings if he had simply had a heart attack while climbing down the Mnt of Olives?

 

[Montalban]

Interesting. My take on it is that Jesus had to die a martyr's death. What would have happened to His teachings if he had simply had a heart attack while climbing down the Mnt of Olives?

I don't get this. Your 'reasons' are you think he had to. Why? Who knows? Then you speculate on something totally different.