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Hell.
- Thread starter brinny
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No, it is the death penalty. It is not Scott-free. If you lose your life, you lose everything. WE get eternal life! We can skip and jump! They can't. We get to have cookies! They don't. That's a huge punishment right there. We get to be with Jesus Christ. They don't, they die. That's a huge punishment and it's sad.
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Montalban
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The death mentioned in Romans is a spiritual death, as I noted earlier it's like a father saying "I have no son, he is dead to me".
It's clear it's spiritual because it then goes on to say that some will have 'eternal life in Jesus Christ'.
Now to have a literal life as we know it would suppose that we breathe, eat, etc.
Furthermore we have other examples of scripture talking of eternal fire such as Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Thessalonians 1:8-9 hints at this as does John 3:36
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Revelation 20:10 shows this more so as it says forever
It's clear it's spiritual because it then goes on to say that some will have 'eternal life in Jesus Christ'.
Now to have a literal life as we know it would suppose that we breathe, eat, etc.
Furthermore we have other examples of scripture talking of eternal fire such as Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Thessalonians 1:8-9 hints at this as does John 3:36
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Revelation 20:10 shows this more so as it says forever
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I think there is punishment and suffering for leading a wicked life and refusing to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord and saviour. Only a small minority of Christianity has ever believed otherwise.
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Paul doesn't say in Romans (or anywhere else) that the death is merely a spiritual death. It does go on to say that the gift of God is eternal life. You don't think that the unsaved also receive the gift of eternal life, do you? So if some receive eternal life and the rest don't, the ones who don't receieve eternal life don't have eternal life, they are dead. Not having life is being dead. They pay the penalty of sin for themselves, which is death.
It is true that Sodom and Gemorrah are examples for the lost. Just as Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed, the lost will be destroyed. That's what an example is. You can't say "Just as S and G were destroyed the lost will be eternally tortured!" Being destroyed is not an example of being eternally tortured.
You say Thessalonians 1:8-9 hint at this. Do you mean 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9? It not only hints, but says straight out, These pay the penalty of eternal destruction. Unless you are using a different English than I am, this says that they will be destroyed, not eternally tortured.
John says the Lake of Fire is the second death. Death is not eternally living in torture.
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Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
But yet you still wish to believe that man splits off from his body in ghost form, and goes floating off either upward into space, or downward into some pit with devils and pitchforks. Am I wrong?
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We only know that the people who don't die in a state of grace with God....
...Know they are NOT having a good time and for the people who died in a state of grace with God.
...That they are NOT separated from the love of God - i.e. they KNOW they are in Christ.
It is noted that those who reject a persons spirit continues on after the death of the body.....
...Also believe that Christ was a creature christ and could have eternally died if He had sinned.
...Also that Christ existed prior to the Incarnation as an archangel.
...These types of teachings are outside of the deposit of Faith.
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It is noted that you are wrong that those who don't believe in the living spirit beings of dead people "also believe that Christ was a creature christ and could have eternally died IF He had sinned" and you are wrong that I believe that "Christ existed prior to the Incarnation as an archangel."
But I suppose if you understood what we believe, you would believe it too, instead of ghost spirits flying off to heaven or descending to hell at death.
You are welcome to review the Nicene Creed for a nice summary of what I believe.
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There are always anomalies Timothew and I absolutely accept that as a fact...
...I'm talking about "denominations" & how the ones who claim "soul sleep".
...Advocate EXACTLY what I said they did.
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Isa 66:24 And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched: and they shall be a loathsome sight to all flesh.
Mar 9:44 (9:43) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Mar 9:46 (9:45) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Mar 9:48 (9:47) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torments, shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast and his image and whoever receiveth the character of his name.
Rev 19:3 And again they said: Alleluia. And her smoke ascendeth for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Athanasian Creed: "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire".
Mar 9:44 (9:43) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Mar 9:46 (9:45) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Mar 9:48 (9:47) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torments, shall ascend up for ever and ever: neither have they rest day nor night, who have adored the beast and his image and whoever receiveth the character of his name.
Rev 19:3 And again they said: Alleluia. And her smoke ascendeth for ever and ever.
Rev 20:10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Athanasian Creed: "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire".
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Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
#1. The fire not being quenched (or extinguished) does not mean that the fire does not ever go out. It just means that no human hands can put it out until it has thoroughly burned up everything in its path.
You're barking up the wrong tree here with false and wrong exegesis. I encourage you to learn the science of applying hermeneutics before you come to conclusions. Let us learn the scripture's own definition of what this means:
"He will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire” Matthew 3:12
"But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27
“Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, And burned the house of the LORD, and the king’s house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, burned he with fire.” Jeremiah 52:12-13
And they burnt the house of God, and break down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof, And them that had escaped from the sword carried away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill threescore and ten years.” (2 Chronicles 36:19-21)
Let us raise the question, is the "unquenchable fire" that burned up the house of God and all the gates still burning?"But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27
“Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, And burned the house of the LORD, and the king’s house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, burned he with fire.” Jeremiah 52:12-13
And they burnt the house of God, and break down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof, And them that had escaped from the sword carried away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: To fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill threescore and ten years.” (2 Chronicles 36:19-21)
No, it just means that nobody could put out the fire. It burned until it burned everything up. Once it is done burning everything up, it goes out. It was not "put out". Understand? Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 17:27 came to exact fulfillment according to 2 Chronicles 36:19-21. Nebuchadnezzar's army set the buildings of Jerusalem ablaze with "unquenchable fire". It does not mean that the fire never goes out, otherwise, it would still be burning. It just means that nobody can go around with fire-extinguishers and put out the flames. The flames will not go out until they have done their job.
#2. It says the "worms never die", it does not say that humans don't die. The worms are feasting on the bodies of people. There is no "souls" in hell-fire. The souls are "dead". In Gehenna, Jesus used the illustration of the garbage dump where fire was burned outside of Jerusalem. Anything that did not get burned, the worms came and feasted on the remains. Jesus is using this as an anaology to prove that the hell-fire that will come "at the end of the age" will burn up everything, and not leave a trace behind. The worms just help to draw a mental picture of the destruction, similar to birds feasting on the flesh of dead carcasses in Revelation.
I suggest you go back and read all my previous posts on this thread, as these verses have been exhaustively dealt with. The Bible is its own expositor, its own interpreter. We learn just where John derived these passages from--from Isaiah, and he got them from contexts where in the same valley where the fire burned "forever and ever", a wasteland was left, with beasts, animals, thorns, brush, and empty palaces were left. It's all documented. Go back and read all my posts is my recommendation, and please grapple with these arguments.
Be open to changing your views if the scriptures say otherwise.
Let the Bible make what it will of you. This applies to all of us.
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Um without referring to the posts
God resurrects the body with the spirit, to be judged.
much how the resurrection of the saint will be with their body.
God resurrects the body with the spirit, to be judged.
much how the resurrection of the saint will be with their body.
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Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
It is true, dreams can really feel as though we really were there.
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Montalban
Well-Known Member
Only if you rely solely on Paul's one verse that you've quoted and ignore Revelations etc. that I cited I could then understand your POV.
Do you think that in 'eternal life' you'll have a house, a car, a good breakfast, etc.? Or is it a 'spiritual' life?
Then you're saying that they will be eternally tortured, but no one else?
How long will someone be burned in the lake until they feel nothing?
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