Hell?

[Lulav]

Where does the Bible say Hell is not in God's presence? God is omnipresent. He would be in Hell too.

I get the feeling you find destruction to be unpalatable due to some need to see others pay for their misdeeds. But, for all you know Hitler may end up in Heaven. I don't think you'd be happy about that, over him ceasing to exist.

well David thought the same too

God can withdraw Himself in some regards too. He is sovereign, and I think to say that He must by nature be everywhere would be a lean towards pantheism.

I don't believe that the man after G-ds own heart was a pantheist.

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?

If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell (Sheol), behold, thou [art there].

From Ps 139:7-8

139:1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. O L-RD, you have searched me and you know me.

 

[tm2cruz]

If you were trying to convey an image to someone about how disgusting something was - say an eternal punishment wouldn't you find something that portrays that image as close as the human experience could relate to?...

Jesus/Yeshua always used their surroundings and places to explain spiritual things, just like mustard seed or mountain moving. Those aren't literal interpretations. Spiritual things are far wider than the physical explanation, I mean bigger than what we can understand. But He used physical descriptions to give us a little bit of understanding. So I guess the literal place he showed, if it is bad enough for us, we can imagine how worst hell is. He just explained in physical to give us a little bit of idea how bad hell is and it's worst than the physical place because it's eternal... That's what i believe

 

[tm2cruz]

I read through this thread and it is my observation that many here are conceptualizing an eternal hell/gehenna/sheol/etc. in terms of progressing time. There are a couple of verses in Daniel (11:35, 12:4, 12:9) which speaks of the "time of the end". The phrase is translated from the Hebrew "eth qets", which may literally and alternatively mean "time's end".

This is just my opinion on those & other scarce number of verses on the subject of time, but I see an eternal hell - eternal in the sense that there is no more time. When someone dies their spirit goes into the eternal timelessness. Their destiny is determined by their spiritual decision for or against Messiah while on this timed plane of existence, so they are "eternally" in heaven or hell by their own choice. So to say that it is unreasonable for Elohim to leave spirits tortured in hell for thousands, millions, billions of years would have no meaning in that sense, since 1) time does not pass in eternity, and 2) it was the spirits' choice to go there in the first place.

Interesting

 

[Lulav]

Who/what and where are the spirits in prison?

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

Maybe it might help if I quote more which is around this verse.. to give it some context..

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)


18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Yes, and this brings up another point, if there were no giants and angels can't reproduce, why then does this say that these spirits were 'disobedient'? someone here stated that they have no free will so how can they be disobedient? Also this pinpoints the same time by mentioning in the days of Noah and brings us back to gen 6:6

 

[Lulav]

Nahh, no worries... But I believe the majority if we say word "hell exist?" means the eternal punishment..

I believe in a place that seems like eternal punishment, sometimes on this forum even.

Absolutely not. I don't believe you are sinners, if you have sinned in any way how would I know about it?

I came to discuss a topic of interest to me. Not to learn or to preach. There was a poll, I responded. My view on hell is not "antiMJ" or "proMJ".

Well, then I would suggest you temper your posts, you are a guest in a congregational forum where you can post fellowship posts or ask polite questions, these posts do not fall into that categories, but rather preaching and condescending. You did more than respond to a poll which was asked by another guest.

It isn't allowed. You should report it.

The doctrine is called "annihilationism" and is only allowed to be discussed in "Unorthodox Theology."

It happens to be biblically true, but that seems to be neither here nor there. The wages of sin is death, according to Paul, not eternal torment in Hell-Fire.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not PERISH (this word means die) but instead they will have ETERNAL LIFE. (This means life without ever again dying)

Genesis: If you eat that fruit, dying you will die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The Soul that sinneth shall die.

Q Why did the Messiah die for our sins? A To pay the price of death which we owed for our sins. He died and rose again paying the wages of sin for us. The wages of sin is death. His death substitutes for our death.

Tim

Here you are preaching, you are then asking questions and answering them yourself.

Typical. I ask what does the bible say and there is resounding silence.

 

[Lulav]

I read through this thread and it is my observation that many here are conceptualizing an eternal hell/gehenna/sheol/etc. in terms of progressing time. There are a couple of verses in Daniel (11:35, 12:4, 12:9) which speaks of the "time of the end". The phrase is translated from the Hebrew "eth qets", which may literally and alternatively mean "time's end".

This is just my opinion on those & other scarce number of verses on the subject of time, but I see an eternal hell - eternal in the sense that there is no more time. When someone dies their spirit goes into the eternal timelessness. Their destiny is determined by their spiritual decision for or against Messiah while on this timed plane of existence, so they are "eternally" in heaven or hell by their own choice. So to say that it is unreasonable for Elohim to leave spirits tortured in hell for thousands, millions, billions of years would have no meaning in that sense, since 1) time does not pass in eternity, and 2) it was the spirits' choice to go there in the first place.

That is an interesting stance. I mean is it fair that someone born and died 4,000 years ago should suffer for almost 4,000 years whereas someone born and dying today should suffer much less time (if the end is near)?

I don't believe in the Catholic purgatory (mainly because of the indulgence business) but I do believe in purifying by fire.

There are two forms of purification that G-d speaks of and one more of time.

1. Water
2. Fire

The earth has been purified in water, had it's baptism so to speak with the flood, but the fire is yet to come via prophecies.

The water apparently wasn't enough, so the fire is needed. I think that may be will everyone, for purification. Burn off the dross and leave the pureness of G-d. Just my opinion though.

 

[Timothew]

I believe in a place that seems like eternal punishment, sometimes on this forum even.

Well, then I would suggest you temper your posts, you are a guest in a congregational forum where you can post fellowship posts or ask polite questions, these posts do not fall into that categories, but rather preaching and condescending. You did more than respond to a poll which was asked by another guest.


Here you are preaching, you are then asking questions and answering them yourself.

I apologize, I was wrong to do that. I was unaware that the Theory of Eternal Torment was a dogma of the MJ Congregation.

 

[rsduncan]

Have you studied Talmud to know that for a fact?

Those interested please check out Tractate Rosh HaShanah (pdf) beginning with the Mishnah in Folio 16(a)...

 

[Lulav]

Jesus/Yeshua always used their surroundings and places to explain spiritual things, just like mustard seed or mountain moving. Those aren't literal interpretations. Spiritual things are far wider than the physical explanation, I mean bigger than what we can understand. But He used physical descriptions to give us a little bit of understanding. So I guess the literal place he showed, if it is bad enough for us, we can imagine how worst hell is. He just explained in physical to give us a little bit of idea how bad hell is and it's worst than the physical place because it's eternal... That's what i believe

so you believe that hell is a 'spiritual place'?

 

[anisavta]

I apologize, I was wrong to do that. I was unaware that the Theory of Eternal Torment was a dogma of the MJ Congregation.

Theory of eternal torment dogma?

 

[Timothew]

Theory of eternal torment dogma?

The theory that the unsaved are tormented in hell for all eternity instead of losing out on eternal life. For shorthand I call it the "theory of eternal torment." Is this a required belief for The Messianic Congregations? (A dogma?) I was hoping that the belief was confined to the more "catholic" denominations.

 

[Jase]

I read through this thread and it is my observation that many here are conceptualizing an eternal hell/gehenna/sheol/etc. in terms of progressing time. There are a couple of verses in Daniel (11:35, 12:4, 12:9) which speaks of the "time of the end". The phrase is translated from the Hebrew "eth qets", which may literally and alternatively mean "time's end".

This is just my opinion on those & other scarce number of verses on the subject of time, but I see an eternal hell - eternal in the sense that there is no more time. When someone dies their spirit goes into the eternal timelessness. Their destiny is determined by their spiritual decision for or against Messiah while on this timed plane of existence, so they are "eternally" in heaven or hell by their own choice. So to say that it is unreasonable for Elohim to leave spirits tortured in hell for thousands, millions, billions of years would have no meaning in that sense, since 1) time does not pass in eternity, and 2) it was the spirits' choice to go there in the first place.

I don't really like the "it was their choice notion". While there may be some people that willfully reject God, most people merely see no reason to believe in him or a messiah. They don't choose to go to hell, they merely have the incapability to believe.

And why does a measly few years on this planet require a decision that affects the rest of eternity? Do you find it fair that, say a 20 year old with terminal cancer ends up dying before they found God? That means they maybe had 5-10 years to make a decision that affects infinite time. Rather absurd to me.

 

[Jase]

Precisely. Somewhere the notion emerged that hell is G~d's torture chamber for poor sad people who ticked Him off. And again unless we look to the scriptures instead of someone's decision that hell or whatever eternal punishment is just not to their liking, we'll come up with all sorts of reasons, excuses and opinions.
Some people just can't accept what is written in Scripture even if G~d Himself came down and gave object lessons - Oh that's right He did.

God/Yeshua, did not write a single thing down that's in the Bible. Humans wrote down what they claim they said, decades after they heard/saw it.

Some people just can't understand why a book of paper is not God himself, and that they are capable of misunderstanding what's in it or what was supposed to be/not supposed to be in it.

 

[Jase]

Yes, and this brings up another point, if there were no giants and angels can't reproduce, why then does this say that these spirits were 'disobedient'? someone here stated that they have no free will so how can they be disobedient? Also this pinpoints the same time by mentioning in the days of Noah and brings us back to gen 6:6

You're assuming the Old Testament and New Testament are consistent on the doctrine of angels (assuming the above verse is about angels).

Even if the spirits spoken of in that claim angels were disobedient, doesn't mean it's a Judaic-Christian concept. Fallen angels came from the Book of Enoch and the Persians in the 2nd and 3rd Century BC (between Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity).

Do we have any evidence that Peter was not influenced by either of those things?

 

[anisavta]

God/Yeshua, did not write a single thing down that's in the Bible. Humans wrote down what they claim they said, decades after they heard/saw it.

Oh really? And you have a Messianic Judaism icon?

 

[ananda]

I don't really like the "it was their choice notion".

Whether you like it or not does not have any bearing on what Scripture says.

 

[Jase]

The theory that the unsaved are tormented in hell for all eternity instead of losing out on eternal life. For shorthand I call it the "theory of eternal torment." Is this a required belief for The Messianic Congregations? (A dogma?) I was hoping that the belief was confined to the more "catholic" denominations.

It's confined to most of Conservative and Fundamentalist Christianity. The more moderate/liberal you get (both Catholic and Protestant), the less accepting of eternal torment one gets.

Judaism has no such thing as eternal torment.

 

[rsduncan]

I saw somthing quite interesting when comparing Revelation 20 to the Balylonian (Soncino) Talmud Tractate Rosh HaShana 16(b):

From Revelation 20:

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

From Tractate Rosh HaShanah 16(b):

It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment28 — one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate. The thoroughly righteous will forthwith be inscribed definitively as entitled to everlasting life; the thoroughly wicked will forthwith be inscribed definitively as doomed to Gehinnom, as it says. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.29

It looks like the passage from Revelation 20 and the opinion of the Beth Shammai agree sustantually, but this opinion continues:

The intermediate will go down to Gehinnom and squeal1 and rise again, as it says, And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name and I will answer them.2 Of them, too, Hannah said, The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up.

3 Beth Hillel, however, say: He that abounds in grace inclines [the scales] towards grace,4 and of them David said, I love that the Lord should hear my voice and my supplication,5 and on their behalf David composed the whole of the passage, I was brought low and he saved me.6

...

 

[Jase]

Whether you like it or not does not have any bearing on what Scripture says.

It does depending on one's interpretation. I didn't realize logic when out the window when it comes to the Bible. If something sounds absurdly illogical, it probably is.

 

[Jase]

Oh really? And you have a Messianic Judaism icon?

Yes I do. Relying on facts does not make one a non-Messianic. Nothing in what we call the Bible was physically written by God. Humans wrote, corrected, translated, altered, and canonized the "Bible".

Some things in the Bible weren't even spoken by Yeshua. Case in point, "Let he is without sin cast the first stone". Doesn't exist in the earliest manuscripts. It was a later addition, indicating Yeshua most likely never said it.