Hell?

[Jase]

Who/what and where are the spirits in prison?

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Spirits likely refer to some type of unclean "demonic" spirit that Jesus claimed victory over.

 

[GuardianShua]

Who/what and where are the spirits in prison?

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Human beings have spirits.
Matthew 8:16
When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

Matthew 10:1
[ Jesus Sends Out the Twelve ] Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

 

[yedida]

Human beings have spirits.
Matthew 8:16
When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

Matthew 10:1
[ Jesus Sends Out the Twelve ] Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
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We're well aware of that MTAA, but the question was where/what is the prison? Yeshua didn't go inside the human to preach to the demonic spirits, he just ordered them to leave. But the verse Vis brought up specifically states that he spoke to those imprisoned.

 

[GuardianShua]

We're well aware of that MTAA, but the question was where/what is the prison? Yeshua didn't go inside the human to preach to the demonic spirits, he just ordered them to leave. But the verse Vis brought up specifically states that he spoke to those imprisoned.

People are imprisoned by their sins. When you consider any word you should think about all the ways it can be applied.

 

[anisavta]

Do you know what Gei-Hinnom is? It's the Valley of Hinnom. It was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where they set trash on fire. That's a metaphoric verse, referring to the purifying fires of Gehenna. The fires are described as eternal, not the people in them.

Yes Jase - I've driven by it several times.

 

[anisavta]

Well, the Bible has been altered since it was written, so I'd say it's always been up for revision. (And yes, there is evidence. The early church fathers personally witnessed the early scriptures being altered, both by accident and on purpose).

The Bible is also not the Word of God, Yeshua is. To claim otherwise is idolatry.

When you use that line of reasoning you can come up with and change just about anything you want. And we see that happening on a regular basis.
Can you read it in the original language?
So by your statement of the Bible not being the Word of G~d that means nothing written can be trusted? And if I can't trust the Bible then how do I know exactly what G~d said?

 

[INTJ-F]

Originally Posted by Jase

Do you know what Gei-Hinnom is? It's the Valley of Hinnom. It was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where they set trash on fire. That's a metaphoric verse, referring to the purifying fires of Gehenna. The fires are described as eternal, not the people in them.
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Yes Jase - I've driven by it several times.

I have driven and walked past it several times as well. When I was in Israel, I stayed on Mt. Zion and walked to and from the Old City several times. I have wondered if hell was located underground between there and Mt. Hermon (The 'Gates of Hell')

 

[tm2cruz]

Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

You really like quoting this one eh?

Anyway, in our view (Word of Faith), hell is originally created for Satan and demons. Why people end up in hell? Because they followed Satan and whomever you serve you follow where they are and which place they are going. Jesus died for our sins and He rose from the dead to conquer death, Satan's fave weapon.

 

[INTJ-F]

You really like quoting this one eh?

Some people need to read something a few times before they get it. Some people never get it.

 

[tm2cruz]

As you know, right now I'm going through an extremely tough time and it's bad enough I have to defend my faith on the outside, but from within as well? Somewhere I thought was a safe place. When I want to debate my faith, I go to other forums (like the theology one where all the mainstreamers are defending eating swine)

There needs to be somewhere safe to discuss my faith - if not here, then where?

About this, just rely on the Lord's unconditional love and He will guide you, even sometimes we're so ignorant or stubborn... It happens to me but because of His unconditional love, He will guide us still and help us go back on track. Forums cannot give you all the help you need to grow and know the truth... The Lord is our shepherd, not the forums nor Messianic nor orthodox Jews.
James 1:5 will help

 

[tm2cruz]

I apologize, I voted for yes without checking what section this was.

Nahh, no worries... But I believe the majority if we say word "hell exist?" means the eternal punishment..

 

[ContraMundum]

Where does the Bible say Hell is not in God's presence? God is omnipresent. He would be in Hell too.

God can withdraw Himself in some regards too. He is sovereign, and I think to say that He must by nature be everywhere would be a lean towards pantheism.

I get the feeling you find destruction to be unpalatable due to some need to see others pay for their misdeeds. But, for all you know Hitler may end up in Heaven. I don't think you'd be happy about that, over him ceasing to exist.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that it has very little scriptural witness, especially if you accept the fact that the theology revealed in scripture developed over a time, yet that time of development has ceased (Jude 3) Annihilation is one doctrine that uses one or two unclear texts to overthrow clear texts, and for this reason Christians have affirmed the doctrine of an eternal soul which suffers eternal separation from God if the person dies outside of grace. This is based on the clearest testimony of scripture.

I don't think the notion that the redaction of texts by the first Christians (which is disputable, and it would get lengthy if we go down that road) somehow gives us the authority to do so. It simply is not stated anywhere in the scriptures or in the early tradition of the church that we have been given the authority to snip away at the canonized texts. This is not a discussion on textual variants per se. They are a different matter, and one which I have found to be a bit of a red herring.

 

[Timothew]

So you here to it to us sinners?

Absolutely not. I don't believe you are sinners, if you have sinned in any way how would I know about it?

I came to discuss a topic of interest to me. Not to learn or to preach. There was a poll, I responded. My view on hell is not "antiMJ" or "proMJ".

 

[visionary]

Who/what and where are the spirits in prison?

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

Maybe it might help if I quote more which is around this verse.. to give it some context..

1 Peter 3:18-20
King James Version (KJV)


18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[anisavta]

Do you know what Gei-Hinnom is? It's the Valley of Hinnom. It was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where they set trash on fire.

If you were trying to convey an image to someone about how disgusting something was - say an eternal punishment wouldn't you find something that portrays that image as close as the human experience could relate to? Why would Yeshua spend so much time and energy to convey the horror of something (fire, smell of death, garbage) if He didn't want to warn people away from an eternal setting?
It would be nice to be able to say "well MY G~d wouldn't do something like that" just because we find it so repugnant. But HaShem is other and His ways other. Rebellion against Him is serious and the punishment for it is serious. I can tell you this - if the consequence of punishment when my children were young was not serious when they rebelled against the rules my husband and I set down, they'd be dead now - by a car or who knows what else.

 

[Jase]

If you were trying to convey an image to someone about how disgusting something was - say an eternal punishment wouldn't you find something that portrays that image as close as the human experience could relate to? Why would Yeshua spend so much time and energy to convey the horror of something (fire, smell of death, garbage) if He didn't want to warn people away from an eternal setting?

Sounds to me like a reference to purification and/or destruction. Fire in Hinnom destroys the trash, it doesn't make it suffer. But then, I'm not a Biblical inerrantist. I believe the Christian Hell doctrine was influenced by the Persians.

It would be nice to be able to say "well MY G~d wouldn't do something like that" just because we find it so repugnant. But HaShem is other and His ways other. Rebellion against Him is serious and the punishment for it is serious. I can tell you this - if the consequence of punishment when my children were young was not serious when they rebelled against the rules my husband and I set down, they'd be dead now - by a car or who knows what else.

Faulty analogy. You didn't tie up your children, pour gasoline on them, and set them on fire to teach them that playing in the street is bad. God is not torturing people in Hell as a life lesson. Torturing somebody for all eternity is neither moral, nor rehabilitative. If most humans know that torture is one of the most abominable, sadistic, hateful devices ever orchestrated by human minds, clearly a God of love and mercy would not stoop below our level.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Sounds to me like a reference to purification and/or destruction. Fire in Hinnom destroys the trash, it doesn't make it suffer. But then, I'm not a Biblical inerrantist. I believe the Christian Hell doctrine was influenced by the Persians.

Faulty analogy. You didn't tie up your children, pour gasoline on them, and set them on fire to teach them that playing in the street is bad. God is not torturing people in Hell as a life lesson. Torturing somebody for all eternity is neither moral, nor rehabilitative. If most humans know that torture is one of the most abominable, sadistic, hateful devices ever orchestrated by human minds, clearly a God of love and mercy would not stoop below our level.

 

[ananda]

I read through this thread and it is my observation that many here are conceptualizing an eternal hell/gehenna/sheol/etc. in terms of progressing time. There are a couple of verses in Daniel (11:35, 12:4, 12:9) which speaks of the "time of the end". The phrase is translated from the Hebrew "eth qets", which may literally and alternatively mean "time's end".

This is just my opinion on those & other scarce number of verses on the subject of time, but I see an eternal hell - eternal in the sense that there is no more time. When someone dies their spirit goes into the eternal timelessness. Their destiny is determined by their spiritual decision for or against Messiah while on this timed plane of existence, so they are "eternally" in heaven or hell by their own choice. So to say that it is unreasonable for Elohim to leave spirits tortured in hell for thousands, millions, billions of years would have no meaning in that sense, since 1) time does not pass in eternity, and 2) it was the spirits' choice to go there in the first place.

 

[A_Pioneer]

Rev.20 11-15 Books were opened! The Tzadikim are in the book of life and are not Judged at the White Throne! The Wicked are already judged also! So those who are Intermidiate/form of godliness are those who are being judged by what they had done. Weighed in the balance, their deeds good and bad, the handwriting of ordinances which were against us.
When the Spirit came into me and revealed things, this was among them!
I am not trying to convince anyone, but I am convinced it is the truth!

Shalom

 

[anisavta]

I read through this thread and it is my observation that many here are conceptualizing an eternal hell/gehenna/sheol/etc. in terms of progressing time. There are a couple of verses in Daniel (11:35, 12:4, 12:9) which speaks of the "time of the end". The phrase is translated from the Hebrew "eth qets", which may literally and alternatively mean "time's end".

Precisely. Somewhere the notion emerged that hell is G~d's torture chamber for poor sad people who ticked Him off. And again unless we look to the scriptures instead of someone's decision that hell or whatever eternal punishment is just not to their liking, we'll come up with all sorts of reasons, excuses and opinions.
Some people just can't accept what is written in Scripture even if G~d Himself came down and gave object lessons - Oh that's right He did.