Hell?

[visionary]

The theory that the unsaved are tormented in hell for all eternity instead of losing out on eternal life. For shorthand I call it the "theory of eternal torment." Is this a required belief for The Messianic Congregations? (A dogma?) I was hoping that the belief was confined to the more "catholic" denominations.

You would be amazed as to how pervasive this belief is through the secular world too... and they just shake their heads and want nothing to do with this "mean" God..

 

[rsduncan]

You would be amazed as to how pervasive this belief is through the secular world too... and they just shake their heads and want nothing to do with this "mean" God..

Without even once stopping to think that G-d can be a loving Father or a Judge - and everyone gets to choose which of these aspects of G-d they deal with...

 

[visionary]

Without even once stopping to think that G-d can be a loving Father or a Judge - and everyone gets to choose which of these aspects of G-d they deal with...

Yep... amazing how that works.. be careful for what you believe you see or understand.. it will color what is really going on.

 

[anisavta]

God/Yeshua, did not write a single thing down that's in the Bible. Humans wrote down what they claim they said, decades after they heard/saw it.

Some people just can't understand why a book of paper is not God himself, and that they are capable of misunderstanding what's in it or what was supposed to be/not supposed to be in it.

So what you are saying Jase is that Moses didn't write Torah. John didn't write Revelation. Yeshua didn't really say what is written in the Gospels.They were just copies long after they were dead and gone and have been changed. Like I said in another post. If that is true then the Bible can't be trusted. We don't know what HaShem said because it's all just tale tale stories.
And yet we're to believe what you tell us because you are not a conservative Christian, but a liberal one with a Messianic Judaism icon.

 

[Jase]

So what you are saying Jase is that Moses didn't write Torah.

Don't know whether he did. There is a lot of skepticism about whether he did or not, due to variants in the text (and he certainly didn't write all of it, since he died before it finished.) But Moses is not God.

John didn't write Revelation.

Is John God? You did see that I said God/Yeshua did not write the bible right?

Yeshua didn't really say what is written in the Gospels.

I'm sure he said a lot of it, to some varying degree.

They were just copies long after they were dead and gone and have been changed. Like I said in another post. If that is true then the Bible can't be trusted. We don't know what HaShem said because it's all just tale tale stories.
And yet we're to believe what you tell us because you are not a conservative Christian, but a liberal one with a Messianic Judaism icon.

Have you ever heard of Oral tradition? Jews didn't write things down until long after they happened. The Gospels were not written down until almost 50 years after Yeshua left earth. What makes you think the Apostles remembered every single detail they heard and observed over the years, 50 years later? Can you remember what you ate for dinner last December 15th? I didn't say the Bible isn't reliable, but it requires more than a literal passing glance of an English translation to grasp its meanings.

And why do you keep attacking my icon? Messianic Judaism is not Conservative Christianity. I do not have to hold fundamentalist/conservative views to be a Messianic. Yeshua was not conservative, the Pharisees were.

 

[visionary]

Don't know whether he did. There is a lot of skepticism about whether he did or not, due to variants in the text (and he certainly didn't write all of it, since he died before it finished.) But Moses is not God.

Is John God? You did see that I said God/Yeshua did not write the bible right?

I'm sure he said a lot of it, to some varying degree.



Have you ever heard of Oral tradition? Jews didn't write things down until long after they happened. The Gospels were not written down until almost 50 years after Yeshua left earth. What makes you think the Apostles remembered every single detail they heard and observed over the years, 50 years later? Can you remember what you ate for dinner last December 15th? I didn't say the Bible isn't reliable, but it requires more than a literal passing glance of an English translation to grasp its meanings.

And why do you keep attacking my icon? Messianic Judaism is not Conservative Christianity. I do not have to hold fundamentalist/conservative views to be a Messianic. Yeshua was not conservative, the Pharisees were.

What in your eyes qualifies you to be a Messianic?

 

[anisavta]

Oral tradition is a collection of commentaries on Torah. It's codification of the law.
Where does the Holy Spirit and divine inspiration fit into your theology?

 

[ananda]

Don't know whether he did. There is a lot of skepticism about whether he did or not, due to variants in the text (and he certainly didn't write all of it, since he died before it finished.) But Moses is not God. Is John God? You did see that I said God/Yeshua did not write the bible right? I'm sure he said a lot of it, to some varying degree. Have you ever heard of Oral tradition? Jews didn't write things down until long after they happened. The Gospels were not written down until almost 50 years after Yeshua left earth. What makes you think the Apostles remembered every single detail they heard and observed over the years, 50 years later? Can you remember what you ate for dinner last December 15th? I didn't say the Bible isn't reliable, but it requires more than a literal passing glance of an English translation to grasp its meanings.

Why I believe in The Tanach: Elohim proved He is Master over all things (time & space) based on fulfilled prophecy all throughout the Tanach. Messiah fulfilled prophecy from the Tanach and His prophecies have also come true, grounding my faith in the Gospels. We can determine an authentic message from Elohim, not necessarily based on the authority of or the identity of the person who communicated it, but the message itself (Deu 13, Deu 17:6, 19:15, Mt 18:16). The message must be consistent with prior revelation (Isa 8:20), they must point people to YHVH Elohim's Torah and Testimony (Isa 8:19,20), and all prophecies must come to pass (Deu 18:22, Jer 28:9), among other tests. The epistles of James, Jude, John, and the Revelation also passes those tests, to my knowledge, so I accept those as authentic Scripture.

 

[Lulav]

You're assuming the Old Testament and New Testament are consistent on the doctrine of angels (assuming the above verse is about angels).

Even if the spirits spoken of in that claim angels were disobedient, doesn't mean it's a Judaic-Christian concept. Fallen angels came from the Book of Enoch and the Persians in the 2nd and 3rd Century BC (between Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity).

Do we have any evidence that Peter was not influenced by either of those things?

I don't assume anything. As far as evidence, if we are talking of the Peter of the gospels I would say no, but then I don't think this book was written by the same Peter. And I don't think that Yeshua even named him Peter to start with! How's that?

 

[Lulav]

What in your eyes qualifies you to be a Messianic?

Um, V?is, He's Jewish and believes in Yeshua as Messiah.

 

[visionary]

Um, V?is, He's Jewish and believes in Yeshua as Messiah.

You got to be kidding.. another one... why do some think it takes so little to qualify?

 

[Lulav]

Little? For a Jew, that's a lot, a whole lot.

 

[visionary]

Little? For a Jew, that's a lot, a whole lot.

You know as well as I do.... blood lines do not make a faith... as the Messianic try to clear the centuries of clutter off of the Word of God for both the Jew [by blood] and Gentiles [ especially those who have come from a "christian" background].. even those of us who have been studying this prayerfully are finding out via Holy Spirit, we have just begun...

 

[anisavta]

I think there's a little more than just saying your Jewish and you believe in Yeshua. Just as hearing one claim to be a Christian and then listening to their theology or watching their lives. One doesn't necessarily = the other. When a Gentile claims to be an MJ but is anti Torah we question it. When one is Jewish and anti Torah we allow it?

 

[tm2cruz]

That is an interesting stance. I mean is it fair that someone born and died 4,000 years ago should suffer for almost 4,000 years whereas someone born and dying today should suffer much less time (if the end is near)?...

Jesus have kinda similar parable on that one... Whoever comes first will be last or something...

 

[tm2cruz]

so you believe that hell is a 'spiritual place'?

Heaven is eternal, hell is also eternal. Heaven where God is, hell where Satan is.

 

[ContraMundum]

well David thought the same too


I don't believe that the man after G-ds own heart was a pantheist.

From Ps 139:7-8

139:1 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm. O L-RD, you have searched me and you know me.

Let me qualify what I was saying. The point I was trying to make is that Hell is separation from, not union with, God. God withdraws from sinners, and that goes for Hell as well. Think of the doctrine of the indwelling presence of God.

 

[Jase]

What in your eyes qualifies you to be a Messianic?

I'm a Jew who follows Yeshua haMesiach. I embrace my Jewish identity and stick more to the Jewish culture.

Nothing else is required to be an MJ. Even the statement of purpose on this board confirms that.

I value the Torah, but at the same time, I know it was written for a specific culture thousands of years ago. Aside from the multitude of mitzvot we can't even follow due the lack of a temple, there are numerous ones that would be downright barbaric and illegal to follow in this age unless we lived in an Islamic theocracy like Iran.

Taking a liberal approach to the Torah does not make me a non-MJ. You can be an MJ with a more Reform style of theology. I'm not a Haredi Jew.

 

[Jase]

Oral tradition is a collection of commentaries on Torah. It's codification of the law.

Correct. However, we're making the assumption that Moses actually wrote the Torah (most scholars disagree, however I know that's a tradition issue with the Jews, so Moses will always be the presumed author in the Jewish community). I'm not just talking about the Torah though. The New Testament was written by Jews also, and they did not write anything down for decades, because it was the tradition to pass down the information orally.

Where does the Holy Spirit and divine inspiration fit into your theology?

God inspired the authors to write about their experiences and interactions with him. He made sure that his main theological point was conveyed, but he wasn't concerned with ensuring a perfect text (otherwise he would have never let human hands touch it and alter it to suit their agendas).

God's revelation is bigger than a book. The Bible is a guide, not a divine instruction manual rigidly meant to control people's lives.

 

[Jase]

You got to be kidding.. another one... why do some think it takes so little to qualify?

That's all that's required to be a Messianic Jew. Unless you guys have for some reason put additional conditions on what it means to be a "Messianic", but that doesn't fly outside this board.