Hell is not permanent.

[EchoPneuma]

Jim Jones and David Koresh used the threat of an eternal hell hanging over the heads of their followers. They said that if their doctrines weren't believed and followed that people would go to an eternal hell to be punished. It was a great control device....as it is in most mainstream churches today.

"Believe us and our ways or you will die and burn in hell for all of eternity".

Fear is a great manipulation technique over the weak minded. Keep people in fear of eternal hell if they don't stay with your group and tow the party line.

It worked so well with Jim Jones that those folks were willing to drink poison rather than break free from him. They feared that if they broke away from him that they would burn in hell for eternity. That's what he taught them. So they would rather die for him than burn in hell for eternity.

Same with Koresh. Those people would rather burn with him at the Waco compound than burn in hell for eternity....which is what he taught them would happen if they left his group.

Where would all those people be today if they would have understood that hell was NOT an eternal pit of torture? Many of them might have had the courage to break free from the control of those wicked men. Why? Because they would have known that breaking free DID NOT mean that they would burn in hell for eternity.

I even see it in some baptist churches. They say that if you're not a "Christian" you will burn in hell for eternity. Then they go on to DEFINE what a TRUE "Christian" is.....and of course it's always someone who believes EXACTLY what they say to believe......even in regards to the second coming of Jesus. In some churches if you don't believe that the second coming of Jesus is yet in the future, you aren't REALLY a Christan.....therefore you will die and burn in hell for eternity.

If I was weak minded and ignorant, that technique would be able to manipulate me throught fear into believing EXACTLY what they told me to believe.....because otherwise I would die and go to hell for all of eternity.

Fortunately, I'm neither weak minded nor ignorant....so it had no effect on me. I believe whatever the Lord shows me is true.

Fear is a powerful thing. The bible says "Perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment". The love of God in our hearts will cast out the fear of an eternal torment in hell and show us that "hell" is also a reflection of God's love for His creation. It's restorative.

"Where sin abounded....grace did MUCH MORE abound".

 

[KCDAD]

This is the same thing Jim Jones and David Koresh told their followers. "The church has been wrong for 2000 years, God revealed the true truth to me, and me alone, so come on over here and drink some of this nice kool aid and we can turn up the heat a little bit."

It would be convienent if this is what they taught. However, what they taught is more insidious. They claimed to be the fullfillment of all the church had been teaching for the past 2000 years. And not surprisingly you have trivialized the unnecessary deaths of deluded followers and Congressman Ryan who was trying to investigate Jones. Not one of the people posting here claim to be that fullfillment. We are not focusing on us, but rather on God. We are not focusing on church teaching, but on Jesus.

 

[katallasso]

You just listen to God and believe what He tells you in your heart is true concerning this issue. You can never go wrong when you listen to God.

The witness of the Holy Spirit is to teach us, He is so much better than our dependence on our own interpretations.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

 

[timlamb]

Universalists here have far more faith in their own concience than in Christ. I don't believe anyone has addressed how faith, which is the promanent message of the new testiment, inters in to their belief.
If you believe God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed, then you make a mockery of the cross of Jesus, and we are right to be angered by that. If you think it henious that God would pass eternal punishment, isn't the same punishment for any length of time just as cruel. Great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours.
When people believe you that they need not worship God and have faith in the salvation of Jesus to go to heaven, you, have sentenced them to death, eternaly.

 

[red77]

Universalists here have far more faith in their own concience than in Christ. I don't believe anyone has addressed how faith, which is the promanent message of the new testiment, inters in to their belief.
If you believe God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed, then you make a mockery of the cross of Jesus, and we are right to be angered by that. If you think it henious that God would pass eternal punishment, isn't the same punishment for any length of time just as cruel. Great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours.
When people believe you that they need not worship God and have faith in the salvation of Jesus to go to heaven, you, have sentenced them to death, eternaly.

well if the eternal destinies of people are in the hands of mere mortal man then that would hardly be fair of God,
plus you infer that universalists encourage people not to have faith which makes no sense.......
as far as going by conscience, who do you think gave us one....? And is it not there to be used...? I certainly wont ignore mine to the point of blindly following dogma,
If you choose to see universalism as a mockery of the cross then that is your decision, noone is forcing you to advocate it or believe it yourself......

 

[Soul Searcher]

One major problem with the doctorines of ET is that we must redefine the meaning of simple words to make it fit. Words like holy, just, good, merciful, wisdom all must be redefined to make this doctorine fit.

I ask all the ET believers to again read carefully the sermon on the mount. Pay close attention to where Jesus says that the merciful shall obtain mercy, that those who forgive will be forgiven, that we will be judged by the judgment we use and the measure we meet will be measured unto us.

Also note that in this sermon Jesus is showing us the way. He says at one point be ye therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. Now if this is the key to perfection and God is perfect should we not believe that God will act in a like manner?

 

[katallasso]

Universalists here have far more faith in their own concience than in Christ. I don't believe anyone has addressed how faith, which is the promanent message of the new testiment, inters in to their belief.
If you believe God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed, then you make a mockery of the cross of Jesus, and we are right to be angered by that. If you think it henious that God would pass eternal punishment,isn't the same punishment for any length of time just as cruel. Great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours.
When people believe you that they need not worship God and have faith in the salvation of Jesus to go to heaven, you, have sentenced them to death, eternaly.

tim,

You must not read what I post, I have answered your question of faith several times. One must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, this is done by faith. We universalists like any christian have to have faith to put our lives in the hands of an Almighty God, faith for health, faith for provision, faith that He will give us truth so I don't know where you are coming from here.

I've never heard a universalist say that God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed. An aion of hell for anyone sounds like pretty strong judgement to me.

No the same punishment for any length of time is not just as cruel. Cruel is eternally being punished without hope of mercy or payment for your sins.

I don't know any universalists that believe this either, " Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours" because sin will be judged and purged, this is what hell is for.

Please be careful what you post about our beliefs, what you just posted borders on slander.

 

[red77]

tim,

You must not read what I post, I have answered your question of faith several times. One must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, this is done by faith. We universalists like any christian have to have faith to put our lives in the hands of an Almighty God, faith for health, faith for provision, faith that He will give us truth so I don't know where you are coming from here.

I've never heard a universalist say that God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed. An aion of hell for anyone sounds like pretty strong judgement to me.

No the same punishment for any length of time is not just as cruel. Cruel is eternally being punished without hope of mercy or payment for your sins.

I don't know any universalists that believe this either, " Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours" because sin will be judged and purged, this is what hell is for.

Please be careful what you post about our beliefs, what you just posted borders on slander.

Universalism seems to be misunderstood a lot of the time i feel, many in the church just dismiss it outright as it goes against the grain of years of inbuilt tradition i reckon......it still mystifies me though why people criticise it so much and rail against it to such an extent,
its the one faith which offers hope and reconciliation to all in the fullness of time, can the fundamentalists and evangelicals here offer anything the same.....because of what i see of that message its more concerned with eternal judgement than love, and thats something that universalism cannot be criticised of, judgement may be part of it but not the end......

 

[Jipsah]

God is more of a loving Father than our earthly fathers, but eternal hell is punishment for those who do not believe that fact.

Hey, that's quite a daddy who says "I love my children but if they don't love me back then I'll torture them in fire for all of eternity". Zat square with your definition of "love"?

[SIZE=-1]

I think that it is clear that Hell is permanant.
[/SIZE]

Based on God's "love", right?

 

[timlamb]

tim,

You must not read what I post, I have answered your question of faith several times. One must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, this is done by faith. We universalists like any christian have to have faith to put our lives in the hands of an Almighty God, faith for health, faith for provision, faith that He will give us truth so I don't know where you are coming from here.

I've never heard a universalist say that God never intended that righteousness prevail and judgement be passed. An aion of hell for anyone sounds like pretty strong judgement to me.

No the same punishment for any length of time is not just as cruel. Cruel is eternally being punished without hope of mercy or payment for your sins.

I don't know any universalists that believe this either, " Yours is a faith of convenience, all manor of sin and extreem debautchery, deny God, curse God, right to the grave, no matter, the kingdom of heaven is yours" because sin will be judged and purged, this is what hell is for.

Please be careful what you post about our beliefs, what you just posted borders on slander.

I read every thing you post, and each one of the others who dismantle the scripture. The things you, and the rest of the gang of universalists, have said about me for believing in eternal punishment haven't been words of compassion. Not all who are posing here in opposition to me are "Christian Universalist", I have heard from this thread many ideas about heaven and hell. Bottom line: If you don't teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, you are not scriptural.
Time in purgatory, as punishment and payment for sin, is not salvation through Christ.
pain and suffuring here on earth is not payment for sin, and is not salvation through Jesus.
It is only by God's love that Grace has been extended this long. For those who believe by faith, grace is eternal. For those who do not recieve Christ as Lord and Savior, there is no grace.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the foreheador on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angles of the Lamb. AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT RISES FOR EVER AND EVER. THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST, OR FOR ANYONE WHO RECIEVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME." Revelation 14:9,10,11.
I did not slander anyone. Universalists believe all go to heaven, regardless of faith, or repentance in this life, right to the grave, and beyond, the kingdom of heaven is yours. That is not biblical, or Christian, and mocks The savior.
You people talk about love and forgivemenss while you arrogantly and smugly put me in my place. I can now see how der alter got so surly.
John the Baptiste knew what Jesus comming was about and he didn't say, pack your bags for heaven, he said REPENT!! A heart of repentance, with out that you cannot even begin to understand what Jesus did, let alone accept it and the gift of satvation.

 

[timlamb]

Hey, that's quite a daddy who says "I love my children but if they don't love me back then I'll torture them in fire for all of eternity". Zat square with your definition of "love"?

[SIZE=-1] Based on God's "love", right?

AND RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! YESSS

 

[Soul Searcher]

AND RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! YESSS

Could you define righteousness?

 

[katallasso]

John the Baptiste knew what Jesus comming was about and he didn't say, pack your bags for heaven, he said REPENT!! A heart of repentance, with out that you cannot even begin to understand what Jesus did, let alone accept it and the gift of satvation.

Yes, repentance is needed from everyone who is to come into reconciliation with the Father. And that is exactly what the purifying fire of Hell will preform with them that go there, for the rest of us, obviously, we have already repented.

 

[KCDAD]

Universalists believe all go to heaven, regardless of faith, or repentance in this life, right to the grave, and beyond, the kingdom of heaven is yours..

If so, I am not a universalist.
Good. One less label to worry about.
No one GOES to heaven. You either experience being in God's presence or you don't. You don't have to go anywhere, because God is already everywhere. The difference between you and me is I am experiencing God's presence now, I am in heaven. You think there is something better someplace else... where God is "more" there?

 

[KCDAD]

Could you define righteousness?

I want to hear that serpent-like "yes" again.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I read every thing you post, and each one of the others who dismantle the scripture.

Why the subtle insult? We don't "dismantle" the scripture any more than you do. We show by way of the scriptures what we believe to be true. It's interesting that because we don't agree with you, that you say that we "dismantle the scriptures". I don't believe anyone here has accused you of "dismantling" the scriptures have they?

The things you, and the rest of the gang of universalists, have said about me for believing in eternal punishment haven't been words of compassion

I haven't seen those things of which you speak. Do you mind quoting them for me...

Not all who are posing here in opposition to me are "Christian Universalist",

Interesting that you would say "in opposition to ME". You're taking this personal aren't you Tim? Why is that? We are disagreeing with your DOCTRINE and INTERPRETATION of scriptures. It's nothing personal.....yet you take it that we are opposing YOU. Perhaps that is why you are so defensive and angry.

I have heard from this thread many ideas about heaven and hell. Bottom line: If you don't teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, you are not scriptural.

Nice strawman. Not one of the universalists here have said that someone gets to heaven without faith in Jesus. NOT ONE. You are simply trying to make it seem we are saying that. Jesus said "no one comes unto the Father except BY ME". So we all believe that. But we ALSO BELIEVE that "every knee will bow and EVERY tongue WILL CONFESS that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God". In time EVERYONE will repent and come to faith in CHrist....some in this life...and some after a time of fiery chastisement. But ALL will.

Time in purgatory, as punishment and payment for sin, is not salvation through Christ.

Says who? You? How do you know that God isn't going to allow those souls in "hell" to repent, turn to Christ and receive mercy and forgiveness? It would still be salvation THROUGH CHRIST.

pain and suffuring here on earth is not payment for sin, and is not salvation through Jesus.

The bible says you "reap what you sow".....that is a form of payment for sin. You get what you give. And no one said that it WAS salvation through CHrist to endure chastisement. That's just your perception.

It is only by God's love that Grace has been extended this long. For those who believe by faith, grace is eternal. For those who do not recieve Christ as Lord and Savior, there is no grace.

You presume to speak for God? Like the bible says...."ALL will declare Jesus is Lord"....so all WILL receive Christ as Lord and Savior eventually....so therefore grace will be given to EVERYONE in time. You want to keep God in a box.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the foreheador on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of His wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angles of the Lamb. AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT RISES FOR EVER AND EVER. THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST, OR FOR ANYONE WHO RECIEVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME." Revelation 14:9,10,11.

Yep. and all those who worshipped the Roman emperor a couple thousand years ago did face some real wrath of God when He rained His judgement down on the nation of Israel. Read Josepus sometime. It's harrowing.

I did not slander anyone. Universalists believe all go to heaven, regardless of faith, or repentance in this life, right to the grave, and beyond, the kingdom of heaven is yours.

That's right. We believe that faith and repentance can happen AFTER a time of chastisement in fire. Can you show me the scripture that refutes this? If this isn't possible then why did Jesus go preach the GOOD NEWS to those who were dead?

That is not biblical, or Christian, and mocks The savior.

Says who? You? It is COMPLETELY Christian and biblical.....or I wouldn't believe it. It IN NO WAY mocks the Savior. It uplifts Him and exalts Him for EXACTLY what He accomplished on the cross. His death was the reconcilation of all of mankind to the Father. It is God's will to accomplish it through Christ.

Your belief, on the other hand, makes Jesus out as a complete failure in His mission to "seek and TO SAVE that which was lost". Your belief states that He failed miserably to save what was lost.....in fact losing more than 3/4 of the human race to an eternal hell because their will is stronger than His in regards to their eternal destiny.

So which one really mocks Him?

You people talk about love and forgivemenss while you arrogantly and smugly put me in my place. I can now see how der alter got so surly.

I haven't seen arrogance and smugness except coming from your side of the fence. YOu accuse us universalist CHRISTIANS, who love the Lord passionately, of being...well let's just look at some of your "loving" statements shall we?

In regards to Soul Searcher sharing His views:

2corinthians 11:14-15
"...for satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not suprizing then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

to Katalasso (who has shown the patience of JOB in answering you and Der)

I have answered to your interpetation of most all these scriptures. You read them through worldly eyes finding only what you want to hear
You are a sad result of disception and unbelief. Look at the crowd you run with, some think what you are living now is heaven, some think this is hell.
You live in a clueless existance.
SAD, SAD, SAD

to Red77:

I have little tolorence for those who blame God for the deeds of man. (Red did no such thing)

To Jipsah:

You pervert everything that I say. The truth is not in you. Man cannot justify his own wisdom in the words of God.
You are spiritually sick and you try to infect those around you. You do not look for the things of God, but for what benifits man. You are more concerned with the defence of evil than the purpose of the almighty God.
You do not know what righteousness is, how can you understand God.
You lean upon your own understanding, regardless of the word of God.
There is nothing Good in your words

Yes, Tim you're just a bastion of compassion and kindness....and yet you say no one has been compassionate to you. Pot meet kettle.

John the Baptiste knew what Jesus comming was about and he didn't say, pack your bags for heaven, he said REPENT!! A heart of repentance, with out that you cannot even begin to understand what Jesus did, let alone accept it and the gift of satvation.

It's God's will that ALL come to repentance. Are you saying that man can thwart the will of God? But that's not scriptural.

 

[gort]

Universalism seems to be misunderstood a lot of the time i feel, many in the church just dismiss it outright as it goes against the grain of years of inbuilt tradition i reckon......it still mystifies me though why people criticise it so much and rail against it to such an extent,

I would'nt know about going against the grain of years of inbuilt tradition, but I know the Scriptures clearly show a never ending eternal torment for those who will outright choose evil over God.

its the one faith which offers hope and reconciliation to all in the fullness of time, can the fundamentalists and evangelicals here offer anything the same.....because of what i see of that message its more concerned with eternal judgement than love, and thats something that universalism cannot be criticised of, judgement may be part of it but not the end......

If universalism is the one faith which offers hope and reconciliation to all in the fullness of time, then it's another gospel, and not the one taught from Scripture. Us 'fundies' are NOT more concerned with eternal judgement than love. We are usually criticized FIRST, on being unloveing and judgemental on boards such as these.

But eternal fire is part of the gospel of salvation of sinful man through the shed blood of Christ Jesus. If the lake of fire is a place of chastisement, and only for a specified amount of time, then the work of Christ Jesus on the Cross is made mockery.

But the Scripture don't say it's a specificed amount of time. Scriptures say it is eternal, everlasting, and forever.

Unless of course, I missed that part. So I ask you to show me where it says the LOF is a place of chastisement, and where there's an end to it.

Otherwise, it's just your opinion.

 

[Children of Light]

deleted by user

 

[Der Alte]

[size=-1]If so, I am not a universalist.
Good. One less label to worry about.
No one GOES to heaven. You either experience being in God's presence or you don't. You don't have to go anywhere, because God is already everywhere. The difference between you and me is I am experiencing God's presence now, I am in heaven. You think there is something better someplace else... where God is "more" there?[/size]

In your UR version of “heaven” when did/does this happen?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

[size=-1]One major problem with the doctorines of ET is that we must redefine the meaning of simple words to make it fit. Words like holy, just, good, merciful, wisdom all must be redefined to make this doctorine fit.

I ask all the ET believers to again read carefully the sermon on the mount. Pay close attention to where Jesus says that the merciful shall obtain mercy, that those who forgive will be forgiven, that we will be judged by the judgment we use and the measure we meet will be measured unto us.

Also note that in this sermon Jesus is showing us the way. He says at one point be ye therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. Now if this is the key to perfection and God is perfect should we not believe that God will act in a like manner?[/size]

The Biblical, historical doctrine of ET has been proved over and over again with multitudes of scriptures that ALL universalists posting in this thread have repeatedly ignored. For example, twenty eight (28) passages spoken by Jesus.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

And you would have us read two passages, which you think proves UR. Any doctrine that does not consider all scripture is, at best, a half truth, and a half truth is a full lie.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, i.e. they are God breathed, even those you ignore and hate, and unless you include all scripture you do not have a Biblical belief.

[size=-1]Der Alter,
I've no wish to get involved in a slanging match anymore over scriptures and how they're interpreted by you, me or anyone else......
You're convinced that you're right, lots of others have just as much conviction.
I go with the conscience i was born with and must have been given by God.....and it tells me that an eternal place of torture is wrong......
you're free to criticise as much as you wish and quote lines of scripture till the cows come home (many of which are interpreted differently to how you see them)
I'll go with one for now about judging for yourself what is right and wrong.....[/size]

This is a Christian forum and I am a Christian discussing Christian doctrine. That doctrine is based on all scripture see, 1 Tim 3:16, above. If you do not want to discuss scripture, what are you doing in a Christian forum? There are a multitude of forums, where people can discuss their opinions about a multitude of subjects.

I am not interested in what you think must have been revealed by your conscience. That is totally subjective. As I said before David Koresh, Jim Jones, and all their followers were convinced they were right. I’m pretty sure they had consciences also given by God. I am only interested in what God has revealed in his word. And no, it does not require redefining anything to understand the totality of God’s word. That is a cop out.

The interpretation of scripture is not arbitrary, haphazard, or dependent on the personal whims of the interpreter. There are grammar and syntax rules for every language. That includes Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I don’t remember where I read this but, “When we have in mind the meaning the original writer had in mind when he wrote scripture, then we have correctly interpreted it.” Here is another maxim, “A text without a context, is a pretext.”

Someone can quote, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.,” as you said, until the cows come home but they do not have the full sense of scripture if they ignore Jesus also saying, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven …then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” and ignore the other 27 passages I have posted repeatedly.

 

[Soul Searcher]

The Biblical, historical doctrine of ET has been proved over and over again with multitudes of scriptures that ALL universalists posting in this thread have repeatedly ignored. For example, twenty eight (28) passages spoken by Jesus.

Two comments, One question:

One do not assume that because I have not addressed each or even any of these passages in this thread that I have ignored them. I have studied them in detail.

Two the doctorine of ET has not been proven in any way other than to show that the doctorine exists and that some even many believe in it. It has not been proven as being true and it has been shown to contradict other scripture.

Question: In your view what happens to the merciful non-believer when s/he dies?