Hell is not permanent.

[Merzbow]

Merzbow, you are playing a dangerous game and you misunderstand the rules. Your rules have no loosers, even those who hate and defy the Judge win and all the efforts of the coach matter not, according to you.

For life to be worthwhile you need for there to be losers?

Sinners are still punished, but for a limited time (the Bible is quite clear that there will be judgment for our works). And unbelievers will not be allowed into heaven until they repent (again this is quite clear). But the punishment is not infinite, and all will eventually repent (again quite clear from the unversalist passages I quoted).

By your logic, we should change the laws of the land to make the penalty for everything death by electrocution, because anything less wouldn't deter anybody.

Believing that Jesus is Lord is more than believing He lived and died, it is knowing why, and knowing he is savior.

Every tongue that ever lived will know that Jesus Christ is Lord, those in heaven will praise Him, and those in hell will curse Him, but they will know.

1 peter 4:6, interpreted by you, contradicts the bible thus making the scriptures null and void. Christian faith interprets it as it is in the Amplified Bible, "For this reason the good news (the Gospel) was preached {in their lifetime} even to the dead,...".
Anyone can win the "game set and match" when they make up their own rules.

You mean just like how you inserted entire passages into that verse with no scriptural justification? Paul does not mention Hell once in the NT. Didn't the Reformation teach us to go to the Bible for truth and not listen to the interpretations of Earthly institutions? And again as the Reformation taught us, just because Christians were doing something one way for 1500 years, doesn't mean they were right.

 

[gort]

FYI I have read all those passages many many times. I did not and do not ignore them I simply choose not to go into great detail in responding to them.

Why is it that you choose not to respond to them? Is it because there is 'no light at the end of the tunnel' in regards to what Jesus spoke of regarding eternal damnation?

Bottom line is:

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

(emphasis mine)

There is no Scripture that tells of an ending to the LOF. None whatsoever, other than prooftexting and making up stuff that isn't there.

<><

 

[gort]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."


So Der Alter or anyone else who believes in hell, if your loved child's smoke of torment rises forever and ever, and if it ever reaches your lofty nose in heaven, will you even care? Or will you continue on in your delusion of grandeur and just forget about it?

I have a simple question for you, if you would answer please.

Question: Putting all other people aside, other than yourself, do you deserve hell for your sins?

thanx

<><

 

[Soul Searcher]

Why is it that you choose not to respond to them? Is it because there is 'no light at the end of the tunnel' in regards to what Jesus spoke of regarding eternal damnation?

Honestly, I had no intention of debating the issue before it was even posted. I simply posted one comment and was blasted with accusations and the 27 bible passages.

The author of the post I have encountered in the past, he was hostile and insulting and I have no intention of debating him on these issues unless he shows that he can be civil in so doing.

As for what is at the end of the tunnel there is nothing but light.

 

[Children of Light]

Do I deserve hell?
Yes but only if it is the kind that is to bring me discipline that will draw me closer to the Father.
No if it is the eternal type, I feel none should have to bear that type of punishment for any sin committed here or anywhere for that matter.

None of my questions have been answered because there is no answer, because you cant answer because your hell makes absolutely no sense based on its merits.

Heres my question once again, have a nice lie down, chew it over in your comfy chair with some tea and crackers, and get back to me on it. You cant answer this question, if you do then you lose all validity. Maybe you'll surprise, maybe you can answer or have your own personal justification for being ok with your childs possible torment being waiffed into your nostrils while you breath the nice crisp air in heaven? Or maybe you wont and your realize what a sham your thinking is. I mean is it ok for us to believe things and to go around quoting stuff if we in our hearts dont believe it, what is the sense to please God, I mean if God knows our hearts then why bother? Or perhaps people who profess a belief in hell have absolutely no grounds to not believe it, what do they care it wont affect them, although it could potentially affect the billions of unsaved dead. I mean are we diligently seeking God? Have you ever thought about doing something, thought you could do it, but when you attempted to do it the load was too great? Perhaps you dont realize the enormity of hell now, but if at judgement time you can catch a glimpse out of the corner of your eye the trillions going into the eternal torments and your soul could feel for one instant their pain before you enter heaven, could you still enter, would you wonder what about them, did they really deserve it, could they deserve that, I need to help them.. dont I...?????
I mean really think here....

So Der Alter or anyone else who believes in hell, if your loved child's smoke of torment rises forever and ever, and if it ever reaches your nose in heaven, will you even care? Or will you just forget about it?

 

[Rescued One]

Do I deserve hell?
Yes but only if it is the kind that is to bring me discipline that will draw me closer to the Father.

So if God decrees that non-believers go to hell for eternity, He is no longer God, in your belief. Is that a correct assessment of what you believe?

No if it is the eternal type, I feel none should have to bear that type of punishment for any sin committed here or anywhere for that matter.

Okay. Does this mean there is no eternal separation from God? Does it mean that all whoremongers, forniacators, unbelievers, liars, and sorcerers will eventually be saved from hell?

None of my questions have been answered because there is no answer, because you cant answer because your hell makes absolutely no sense based on its merits.

Sin separates us from God. Do you believe that all will eventually be with God the Father?

Maybe you'll surprise, maybe you can answer or have your own personal justification for being ok with your childs possible torment being waiffed into your nostrils while you breath the nice crisp air in heaven?

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Or maybe you wont and your realize what a sham your thinking is. I mean is it ok for us to believe things and to go around quoting stuff if we in our hearts dont believe it, what is the sense to please God, I mean if God knows our hearts then why bother?

How can a person who loves God not want to please Him? Don't you think that love is the desire to please the beloved?

4 Charity* suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

*Love

Ephesians 5
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Or perhaps people who profess a belief in hell have absolutely no grounds to not believe it, what do they care it wont affect them, although it could potentially affect the billions of unsaved dead.

You sound like an LDS. Do you think Christians have no love or concern for the unsaved? How did you reach this conclusion? Have you ever heard of Christians dying for their faith?

I mean are we diligently seeking God? Have you ever thought about doing something, thought you could do it, but when you attempted to do it the load was too great? Perhaps you dont realize the enormity of hell now, but if at judgement time you can catch a glimpse out of the corner of your eye the trillions going into the eternal torments and your soul could feel for one instant their pain before you enter heaven, could you still enter, would you wonder what about them, did they really deserve it, could they deserve that, I need to help them.. dont I...?????
I mean really think here....

I'm thinking that you know God is in charge of writing names in the Lamb's Book of Life. Is God unable to distinguish the saved from the unsaved? Is God unjust or unfair or lacking knowledge?

So Der Alter or anyone else who believes in hell, if your loved child's smoke of torment rises forever and ever, and if it ever reaches your lofty nose in heaven, will you even care? Or will you continue on in your delusion of grandeur and just forget about it?

We see now that you have your mind made up. You don't like what the Bible teaches and you are contemplating becoming LDS if you aren't already LDS.

Can we accept what God has revealed in His word or do we need to join a church that believes part of what the Bible teaches is untrue and other parts are true? Did God inspire men to record His word and then hand those writings over to Satan?

1 Peter 1
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]This is where I show that you don't know a word of Greek, and are deliberately trying to mislead us. Here is a Yale philosophy professor who knows classical Greek like the BACK OF HIS HAND commenting on this very passage:

pantheon*yale*edu/%7Ekd47/univ*htm

You may have been able to get away with this before, but not anymore 'dood'.[/SIZE]

No name, no source, no reference. Could have been written by anyone. You did say a Philosophy professor didn't you? And he knows what about scripture? Where can we verify that this dood even exists, and what his qualifications are?

You do know what the I in NIV stands for don't you, International? Not just one nation, not just one denomination, not just one group's POV. Don't like the NIV, here is the New English Translation, also translated by teams of scholars. Go to thier website and read thier comments.

NET 1 Pet 4:6 Now it was for this very purpose14 that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead,15 so that though16 they were judged in the flesh17 by human standards18 they may live spiritually19 by God’s standards.20​

[SIZE=-1]And 'spirits' don't live in an Earthly prison. You're trying to INTERPRET that passage away. Imagine that - INTERPRETING the scriptures according to context, philosophy, theology, and reason.

[/SIZE]

Here you are insisting on, "context, ... theology, and reason." and you quoted some so-called Philosophy professor who trashes the dozens of scholars who tranlslated the NIV because they did in fact use "context, ... theology, and reason."

Who says the passge refers to a literal prison wood and stone? Many were in prisons of poverty, sin, idolatry, etc.

And you presume to lecture me about context while you ignore the context of the passage.

[SIZE=-1]I still have yet to fathom the reason why so many people strive so hard in insisting that their God is a sadistic torturer when the scriptures heavily imply the opposite - and are at most ambiguous.[/SIZE]

God didn't ask me, or you, before he destroyed all the world except Noah and his family. God didn't ask me, or you, before he killed all the first born of Egypt. God didn't ask me, or you, before he destroyed the Israelites who worshipped the golden calf. God didn't ask me, or you, before he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. God didn't ask me, or you, before he destroyed the Canaanites, Jebusites, Perizzites, etc., etc. etc.

It is not about what I think, it is about God's word. ALL of God's word not just your handful of out-of-context proof texts and your pre-canned arguments from Universalists-&#1071;-Us.

I still have yet to fathom the reason why so many universalists strive so hard in insisting that God will not punsih anyone in a real eteranl hell, while they ignore all my previous posts. Yeah you won't address my posts but that does not stop the juvenile, cowardly, backstabbing of me in virtually every post.

 

[Merzbow]

No name, no source, no reference. Could have been written by anyone. You did say a Philosophy professor didn't you? And he knows what about scripture? Where can we verify that this dood even exists, and what his qualifications are?

So the link I posted directly back to the paper on the professor's Yale web site is 'no name, no source, no reference'? Here it is again (replace the asterisks with periods):

pantheon*yale*edu/%7Ekd47/univ*htm

You do know what the I in NIV stands for don't you, International? Not just one nation, not just one denomination, not just one group's POV. Don't like the NIV, here is the New English Translation, also translated by teams of scholars. Go to thier website and read thier comments.

I repeat:

Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead," confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible -- users of NIV's other than the NIV Study Bible don't get this warning -- that "the word 'now' does not occur in the Greek," and explaining that the reason they've added it is that, for reasons coming from another part of the Bible, not even in the book of I Peter, they believe that there are no further chances after death.

Your vaunted team of NIV international scholars ADMITS in their own note that 'now' doesn't occur in the Greek and they added it for theological reasons.

(And I should point out the ESV, the NRSV, and even the KJV don't add the 'now'.)

Yeah you won't address my posts but that does not stop the juvenile, cowardly, backstabbing of me in virtually every post.

Alter, your are DELIBERATELY misleading the readers of this thread by claiming that's how the passage reads in the original Greek - implying you know Greek and did read the original Greek. Let's refresh our memory:

NIV 1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [present tense], so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[Note, this is how it reads in the Greek.]

The very men who WROTE the translation you used as a source, the NIV, say the exact opposite in a note. So the Yale professor is lying on his own paper that his official Zondervan NIV Study Bible has such a note? How about we both go to Amazon and order the official NIV Study Bible today. If it does not have that note, I will PayPal you $100 plus the cost of the Bible, and apologize publically. How about it?

Or why not just apologize publically yourself?

 

[Children of Light]

Oh well, I guess you all dont really want to answer.
So be it.
I know Phoebe thinks she answered but she isnt even close and she knows she hasnt answered the spirit of what I am saying, she would rather talk about my lds or non lds status.
I know that God is the final good judge. If sinners go to hell eternally God is still God, but not the God that I imagine Him to be.
If all sinners go to heaven is it the same God you imagine? Maybe not.
I think the bible says that at the end the workers will be upset b/c they worked for God for a long time but yet there were some in heaven that didnt work that long but still got into heaven. And there is this verse that I cant remember it exactly it I believed it says that Satan is the only one guaranteed to go to the lake of fire.

 

[newyorksaint]

Oh well, I guess you all dont really want to answer.
So be it.
I know Phoebe thinks she answered but she isnt even close and she knows she hasnt answered the spirit of what I am saying, she would rather talk about my lds or non lds status.
I know that God is the final good judge. If sinners go to hell God is still God, but not the God that I imagine Him to be.
If all sinners go to heaven is it the same God you imagine? Maybe not.
I think the bible says that at the end the workers will be upset b/c they worked for God for a long time but yet there were some in heaven that didnt work that long but still got into heaven. And there is this verse that I cant remember it exactly it I believed it says that Satan is the only one guaranteed to go to the lake of fire.

And his 1/3.

But, I do feel pity to those who are sent to Hell. I cannot imagine that life. I don't feel I could honestly answer the question regarding giving up my eternity in heaven for another. I think I am too selfish, and prideful, thinking that if God sent them to Hell, they deserved it, and I have no right to contradict that.

 

[Soul Searcher]

And his 1/3.

But, I do feel pity to those who are sent to Hell. I cannot imagine that life. I don't feel I could honestly answer the question regarding giving up my eternity in heaven for another. I think I am too selfish, and prideful, thinking that if God sent them to Hell, they deserved it, and I have no right to contradict that.

Actually the concept of taking anothers place in hell creates a bit of a paradox. It would without a doubt be the single most selfless act ever by any creature.

The paradox is two fold, one it would be an even greater act of love than that Jesus showed in dieing on the cross and two God would almost certianly be bound to send you to the front of the heaven line.

Jesus once said greater love hath no math than this, to die for his friends.

If a man willingly takes the place of another in hell how much greater then is the love of the man?

 

[Children of Light]

Below is the post by Phoebe Ann in response to my wondering if anyone will be tearful of their childs eternal torment fumes being whaiffed by them in heaven:

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So I guess then that our childrens torment will be erased from our minds, without our knowing it then, we will be part of our childs eternal torment. Gee that makes me feel so much worse.

 

[newyorksaint]

Below is the post by Phoebe Ann in response to my wondering if anyone will be tearful of their childs eternal torment fumes being whaiffed by them in heaven:

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Phoebe I see that you havent listed yourself as married, and by listing this scripture I know you definitely dont have children, no parent could possibly be this blase(blah-zay:meaning to be bored or unimpressed by things because one has experienced or seen them so often) about their childs eternal torment.

My father once told me that he would sacrifice all religion, all Church, even God, just for me, if it came down between a choice.

 

[Rescued One]

Below is the post by Phoebe Ann in response to my wondering if anyone will be tearful of their childs eternal torment fumes being whaiffed by them in heaven:

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Phoebe I see that you havent listed yourself as married, and by listing this scripture I know you definitely dont have children, no parent could possibly be this blase(blah-zay:meaning to be bored or unimpressed by things because one has experienced or seen them so often) about their childs eternal torment.

I've been married for over thirty years. I have children and grandchildren whom I love very much. I trust God and His wisdom above mine and I expect my descendants to do the same. I am not blase about God, His word, His judgment, my marriage, my husband, my children or my grandchildren.

 

[Rescued One]

My father once told me that he would sacrifice all religion, all Church, even God, just for me, if it came down between a choice.

I will never love my children more than God. He is first in my life!

 

[RufustheRed]

Below is the post by Phoebe Ann in response to my wondering if anyone will be tearful of their childs eternal torment fumes being whaiffed by them in heaven:

Revelation 21
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Phoebe I see that you haven't listed yourself as married, and by listing this scripture I know you definitely dont have children, no parent could possibly be this blase(blah-zay:meaning to be bored or unimpressed by things because one has experienced or seen them so often) about their childs eternal torment.

By your comments about this scripture passage, I see that you don't like parts of the Bible and/or aren't willing to trust in God to take care of your needs.

I, too, have several children and because of this verse (and ones like it), I earnestly strove to teach them about God's goodness, mercy and love (along with His judgment). My children are responsible for their actions before God, just as you and I are. They know that and I know that. I'm not sure that you know that.

Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, God has these things planned out better than we do?

Mac

 

[RufustheRed]

My father once told me that he would sacrifice all religion, all Church, even God, just for me, if it came down between a choice.

That's too bad. I wonder what would have happened if Abraham felt that way when God told him to sacrifice Isaac?????

Mac

 

[Rescued One]

That's too bad. I wonder what would have happened if Abraham felt that way when God told him to sacrifice Isaac?????

Mac

Good point.

 

[newyorksaint]

I will never love my children more than God. He is first in my life!

I know. But, still, it is a hard decision. Your own flesh and blood, vs "a greater ideal"?

While I believe that I would allow my family to be torn away from me, for the sake of God, I don't think I'd have Job's patience.

 

[Rescued One]

I know. But, still, it is a hard decision. Your own flesh and blood, vs "a greater ideal"?

While I believe that I would allow my family to be torn away from me, for the sake of God, I don't think I'd have Job's patience.

There have been many martyrs in Christianity.


Matthew 10
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

God is the Creator of the Universe. He isn't just an "ideal."