Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Ok so not believeing there is some horrible place like this should keep me awake, but believing it exists should allow me to sleep better...Der Alter said:
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Ok so not believeing there is some horrible place like this should keep me awake, but believing it exists should allow me to sleep better...Der Alter said:How anyone can read the Bible and not see, recognize, understand, that there is a horrible place they call hell and ever able to sleep at night is beyond me.
Soul Searcher said:[SIZE=-1]Ok so not believeing there is some horrible place like this should keep me awake, but believing it exists should allow me to sleep better[/SIZE]...
Yes I saw the long cut and paste job but I stopped reading after the part I responded too.Der Alter said:Yeah right dood. As if that was the only thing I said. Did you happen to see two fairly long posts attached to that one sentence?
Soul Searcher said:[SIZE=-1]Yes I saw the long cut and paste job but I stopped reading after the part I responded too.
btw if you really wanted to make a point you could have just said so, a sentence or two will usually do[/SIZE].
No, I am not accusing you of anything. I assumed that you did not set at your keyboard and type all that into the text box. If you actually took the time to type all that into this little text box then I was wrong and I am sorry. but if you did copy and paste from anywhere (including your own work) then the statement is correct.Der Alter said:"cut and paste" implies stealing someone else's work, without giving proper credit, and presenting it as one's own. Is that what you are accusing me of?
Soul Searcher said:[SIZE=-1]As for reading and responding to all that stuff you pasted, I mean posted, Why should I bother? You start by impling that I have not or do not read the bible, then you say you are not interested in my opinion so why bother[/SIZE].
Ekletos, I grow weary of being on the defencive with you.Ekletos said:You Quote:
I too, cried, just at the thought of loosing one of my girls to satan
This is what I am amazed at by people.
These Quotes that have no truth to them whatsoever?
Lose someone to Satan!!!
I didn't know of anywhere in the whole entire bible that it ever mentions that you will "Lose" anyone to Satan.
Sounds like "Polytheism' to me
Good God and Bad God.
You Quote:
I have suffered terrible mental anguish to the point where I thought even hell would be welcome, with a clear head I know better. The memory of that suffering only serves to make more gratefull for the gift of salvation.
Like I said before Tim
The Fear of Hell is the threat that people believe, and then turn to Christ (Out of Fear of Hell) as their savior from Hell and you prove this by your statement Tim.
But in an Earlier post you state Otherwise didn't you.
You Quote:
and we must do all we can to reach all who will listen
"No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draw him to me"
According to your view Tim If all who don't listen to what "Christians" proclaim then their is not one thing God can do, because God is bound by mans "Freewill"
and so they are most confidently going to Hell because they didn't respond to another man's proclamation.
But the scripture above flat out contradicts Christianity's claim.
You Quote:
let us not loose our focus on what really matters, a loving God
Who would Allow one of his Children to suffer in a place (He made) endlessly. And all for not "Receiving" the Gift that keeps on giving, although most of humanity has never even heard of this "Gift" that you must receive.
Now thats what I call "Love"
4Love is not patient, love is not kind and is jealous; love does brag and is arrogant,
5does act unbecomingly; it does seek its own, is provoked, does take into account a wrong suffered,
6does rejoice in unrighteousness, but not rejoice with the truth;
7 does not bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things. 8Love will fail;
According to Most this is the way this passage of scripture is believed.
timlamb said:We must accept Christ to become His children, we gain that right through the Holy Spirit.
Merzbow, you are playing a dangerous game and you misunderstand the rules. Your rules have no loosers, even those who hate and defy the Judge win and all the efforts of the coach matter not, according to you.Merzbow said:Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Peter 4:4-6 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]Game, set, match for the universalist team. We see that one must have faith in Christ to enter heaven, that eventually all will have faith in Christ, and that the gospel is preached even to the dead (which means that those who don't profess faith in this life will have the opportunity in the afterlife).
Now I suppose our resident theologian Dr. Alter will want to list a dozen quotes from Greek dictionaries in an attempt to show that 'dead' doesn't really mean 'dead'. Or will he?
Surely you don't think this is a game that must have a winner and a loser do you?timlamb said:Merzbow, you are playing a dangerous game and you misunderstand the rules. Your rules have no loosers, even those who hate and defy the Judge win and all the efforts of the coach matter not, according to you.
Believing that Jesus is Lord is more than believing He lived and died, it is knowing why, and knowing he is savior.
This is not what I read in the bible.Every tongue that ever lived will know that Jesus Christ is Lord, those in heaven will praise Him, and those in hell will curse Him, but they will know.
1 peter 4:6, interpreted by you, contradicts the bible thus making the scriptures null and void. Christian faith interprets it as it is in the Amplified Bible, "For this reason the good news (the Gospel) was preached {in their lifetime} even to the dead,...".
Anyone can win the "game set and match" when they make up their own rules.
I share your thoughts on this matter.Children of Light said:Believe me if there is a hell, I for sure do not want to go there. But at the same time how could I or any of you for that matter go to heaven when you know that your existance there would be part and parcel of the torments of your brothers that are now in hell?
I do not have any children myself but I do have a mother and a sister who both have passed on recently. I do not believe in hell so I do not worry about this. To me the whole concept of eternal torment is beyond reason and surely not what any moral being would inflict on any creature for any reason.Would anyone here be willing to give up their eternity in heaven to spend eternity in hell if it meant that there child in hell would spend eternity in heaven?
Soul Searcher said:[SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] share your thoughts on this matter.
[SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not have any children [SIZE=+1]myself[/SIZE] but [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do have a mother and a sister who both have passed on recently. [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not believe in hell so [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] do not worry about this. To [SIZE=+1]me[/SIZE] the whole concept of eternal torment is beyond reason and surely not what any moral being would inflict on any creature for any reason.
If [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] thought people were really being tortured there for all eternity [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be freaking out, constantly. [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] don't think [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] could ever find a way to truly love something that could subject any creature to eternal torment.
Would [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] change places? [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] doubt that [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE]would have the courage to do so. Instead [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be ashamed of [SIZE=+1]myself[/SIZE] and feel guilty for eternity, in essence [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] would be in my own private little hell within heaven and never know true happiness.
All that aside, [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] know in my heart that these doctorines of eternal torment are not true and deep down [SIZE=+1]I[/SIZE] have always known this.
Soul Searcher said:[...][SIZE=-1]This is not what I read in the bible.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth , and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.
You will notice that according to the scripture none are cursing, all are blessing.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Two, See 1 Peter 3:18-19 where it talks about the spirits in prison.[/SIZE]
Merzbow said:[SIZE=-1]Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Peter 4:4-6 With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you; but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Game, set, match for the universalist team. We see that one must have faith in Christ to enter heaven, that eventually all will have faith in Christ, and that the gospel is preached even to the dead (which means that those who don't profess faith in this life will have the opportunity in the afterlife).
Now I suppose our resident theologian Dr. Alter will want to list a dozen quotes from Greek dictionaries in an attempt to show that 'dead' doesn't really mean 'dead'. Or will he?[/SIZE][/FONT]
Ah but that is YOUR OPINION now isn't it? Since this book was written long before we were born and this event has not yet happened then we must consider either that the present tense presented is actually future tense to us [will be present tense when the events happen but future tense to us here and now] or that it is false.Der Alter said:Your one out-of-context scripture does not say what you think it does.And every creature which is in [present tense] heaven, and on [present tense] the earth, and under [present tense] the earth , and such as are in [present tense] the sea, and all that are in [present tense] them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever
FYI I have read all those passages many many times. I did not and do not ignore them I simply choose not to go into great detail in responding to them.Der Alter said:Still ignoring the [SIZE=+1]27[/SIZE] passages spoken by Jesus, that I have posted twice.
Der Alter said:NIV 1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [present tense], so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.[Note, this is how it reads in the Greek.]
(Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead," confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible -- users of NIV's other than the NIV Study Bible don't get this warning -- that "the word 'now' does not occur in the Greek," and explaining that the reason they've added it is that, for reasons coming from another part of the Bible, not even in the book of I Peter, they believe that there are no further chances after death. Now, the case they give in that note for the doctrine of no further chances is hopelessly weak. (We'll encounter it below.) But put that aside for the moment. The more pressing point here is that this practice of doctoring a translation to protect the theological positions that the translators happen to hold on controversial issues is deplorable. The much more responsible NRSV, true to its general character, more reliably translates this passage as, "For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead." This better translation leaves the matter of whether "the dead" refers to people who were dead when they were preached to or rather to those who were dead at the time of the writing of I Peter about as open as it is in the original Greek. The NIV translators, on the other hand, for no respectable reason, add a word to close down the reading, left open in the Greek, that doesn't best serve their own theological purposes, though it seems the more natural of the two readings.)
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