Hell is not permanent.

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FineLinen

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FineLinen said:
What does "prov aijwvnioß crovnoß" mean?

Prov= _______________?

aijwvnioß= Everlasting/Eternal/Without beginning or ending?

crovnoß= _______________?


[move]"To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment's sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless." -Christ Triumphant- [/move]

I answered question four by looking it up in my dictionary, I don't think those words are in my dictionary.
You continue to make it obvious that this is how you set up fundimentalists so you can twist their words and make out of context statements to further your false doctrine. You have already done it. Because I said eternal, you have ignored the rest of what I said and challenged me.
I find no good in you and I see no good comming from this.
you do not proclaime your doctrine for the glory of God, but to magnify yourself.
If you have something to say, say it but leave me out of it.

ScaredMouse.gif


 
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FineLinen

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EchoPneuma said:
Just wanted to let you know that I did as I said I would. I took it all to the Lord in much prayer and study, and the Lord changed my mind about universal salvation. I now see that it truly is what the bible teaches.

Remember I was struggling with WANTING to believe it, but I just couldn't see it. Now I can because God has helped me.

Just wanted to share that with you. I remember we had a good conversation and ended on a high note....

Echo: What a wonderful road the Father brings those whose hearts cry out for Him!

He has made known to us the secret of His will.

And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.

And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will.

Christ Triumphant by Rev. Thomas Allin

http://www.totlogcon.com/filealin.htm

The purpose of God by the first-fruits or first-born to save and bless the later born.

HERE

[move]"And the leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall no longer be a curse upon anything."[/move]




 
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Der Alte

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Merzbow said:
[SIZE=-1]Let's consider the evidence, shall we[/SIZE]?

From my post.
Clement of Alexandria VI.-From the Book on the Soul.

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked, for whom it were better that they were not deathless. For, punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have a, period put to their misery.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-79.htm#P10261_2871673

Which you blew off with a meaningless knee jerk response,

[SIZE=-1]Nothing more than a FRAGMENT.[/SIZE]

No it was two sentences and a link to the primary source. Which shows that Clement taught that all souls were immortal and after departing this world that the wicked were punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and since they were immortal, they did not die, so it is impossible for them to have, an end, or period, put to their misery.

You do understand the words "endless" and "quenchless" don't you? You can't jerk these words around like you try to with "aion"

Second quote from Clement,
Clement of Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen

For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: “He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men’s minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-50.htm#P2691_785581

Second meaningless knee jerk comment,

[SIZE=-1]Punishment. Not everlasting punishment - there isn't even an aionios here.[/SIZE]

I know lets pretend Clement did not ever write anything else, like the quote immediately above, and we can almost make this say anything we want it to. Clement said those who were evil, a sinner, in this life would have "unavailing remorse, with their torment/punishment. See definition of "unavailing" since you apparently do not understand what it means.
Main Entry: un·avail·ing
Pronunciation: -'vA-li[ng]
Function: adjective
: not availing : FUTILE, USELESS
- un·avail·ing·ly /-li[ng]-lE/ adverb
- un·avail·ing·ness noun​
In their post mortal punishment the wicked are sorry for their sins but their remorse is futile, useless, because Clement understood that sinners faced the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have, an end, a period, put to their misery.

Third quote,
Clement of Alexandria Who is the Rich Man that Shall Be Saved?

For though sparing, and aiming at testing, who will receive meritoriously or not, it is possible for you to neglect some that are loved by God; the penalty for which is the punishment of eternal fire.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-86.htm#P10493_2903393

And your third meaningless knee jerk response

[SIZE=-1]Lemme guess - 'aionios' fire? We covered that. Either 'age-lasting', or eternal in the sense of timeless or the nature of the divine (as Plato used it, derived from Aristotle's use and definition of aion). NOT everlasting. And I'm betting he used the Greek word that means corrective punishment (as the NT does).[/SIZE]

Meaningless bloviation because you cannot provide a reasoned response.

No we did not cover anything about "aionios fire." You made some irrelevant unsupported assertions without the slightest bit of evidence somewhere back there. Your assumptions and presuppositions are not evidence for anything.

As I recall I have asked you this twice. Show me something beside another blind cut/paste from hellmakers that supports, "Either 'age-lasting', or eternal in the sense of timeless or the nature of the divine." etc. A third or fourth hand copy of more worthless drivel from hellmakers, allegedly showing how Plato, etc, supposedly used "aionios" is less than meaningless.

Quoting a universalist website instead of credible, verifiable, primary sources is about like a Muslim suicide bomber quoting Osama Bin Laden, or vice versa.

Surprise, surprise, hellmakers and tentbusters posts only stuff that supports universalism.

"I'm betting he used the Greek word that means corrective punishment." You haven't provided any independent evidence that any word means "corrective punishment," in the above quote, the N.T., Clement, or anywhere else. I will accept quotes from, and links to, any primary sources. I will not hold my breath.

Once again pretending Clement did not write anything else on the topic. A favorite tactic of false proof text religions.. What did Clement mean by, "the punishment of eternal fire"? Compare this writing with Clements other works. "punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire, and not dying, it is impossible for them to have a, period put to their misery" and "unavailing remorse, with their punishment" In his own words, that is what Clement meant by "aionios fire."

That is known as reading "in context," apparently you are not familiar with this indisepnsable requirement in all fields of study.

[SIZE=-1]Now let's look at Clement's soteriological writings in his major works. Do they support the view that he believed one could not escape from this punishment? Assuredly not:[/SIZE]

Who decided it was a "major work," or "soterological"? Once again pretending that Clement only wrote what you choose to quote. The only thing you have established is, like Gregory, Clement A, was not a consistent or exclusive universalist. Therefore citing Clement proves absolutely nothing about the validity of universalism.

Show me a church father in the first 300 years of the church who was a consistent, exclusive, universalist.
 
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Der Alte

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Soul Searcher said:
[SIZE=-1]Just wondering here, Why did you title your post "Using the BDB" ? It appears to be talking about the BDAG rather than the BDB[/SIZE]. :scratch:

Well, shoot, me making a typo from BDAG to BDB just invalidates my entire post doesn't it?
 
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Der Alte

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EchoPneuma said:
[SIZE=-1]Just for reference I am posting all the scriptures that teach universal salvation of all men. We keep hearing that we need to take the WHOLE bible as our guide. Well here is what the WHOLE bible teaches about it.[/SIZE]
[out of context scripture omitted]
+++++++++++++++++++++++

[SIZE=-1]I think that pretty much shows the whole context of the bible about universal salvation. Yet, those who believe in ET want to take a few verses out of the NT and because of MISTRANSLATED greek words, cling to a belief in an eternal hell...and ignore all these verses to the contrary.[/SIZE]

Ignoring all the posts that contradict your false interpretation of these out-of-context verses does not prove anything. It shows the context of nothing since you have, among virtually every other scripture posted, ignored these 28 passages spoken by Jesus.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Posted here.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22940336&postcount=494

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22894158#post22894158

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22400715&postcount=79

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22940336#post22940336

And you have absolutely not proved anything about any words being mistranslated.
 
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Der Alte

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Verses that refute universalism, in addition to all of Jesus, words on the subject.
Abandonment by God

Judges 16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

2 Chronicles 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.

Psalms 81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Proverbs 1:28-30 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Hosea 4:6-7 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 7:42-43 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Spiritual Castaways

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Final separation of the wicked

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Sin separates from God

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Hosea 5:6 They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them.

Examples of Reprobates

1 Samuel 3:13 For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.

1 Kings 21:22 And will make thine house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, for the provocation wherewith thou hast provoked me to anger, and made Israel to sin.

Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Abandonment by God

Judges 16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him.

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

2 Chronicles 30:7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.

Psalms 81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Divine Curse -sinners under

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Genesis 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

Deuteronomy 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

Deuteronomy 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

Joshua 6:26 And Joshua adjured them at that time, saying, Cursed be the man before the LORD, that riseth up and buildeth this city Jericho: he shall lay the foundation thereof in his firstborn, and in his youngest son shall he set up the gates of it.

Judges 5:23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty.

Jeremiah 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,

Malachi 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​
 
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Der Alte

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The wicked rejected by God

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2 Kings 17:20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.

Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

God's face hidden on account of sin

Deuteronomy 31:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Psalms 44:24 Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and forgettest our affliction and our oppression?

Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Micah 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Forsaking God
General references to:


2 Chronicles 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Ezra 8:22 For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.

Jeremiah 1:16 And I will utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Jeremiah 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not yours.

Jeremiah 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

Ezekiel 6:9 And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Examples of:

Deuteronomy 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Judges 10:13 Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.

1 Samuel 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

1 Kings 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

2 Chronicles 12:1 And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom, and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.

2 Chronicles 21:10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the LORD God of his fathers.

Ezra 9:10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments,

Isaiah 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.

Jeremiah 17:13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

Fate of the wicked

Psalms 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Psalms 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.

Psalms 75:8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Psalms 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Psalms 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

Proverbs 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Nor Does Universalism agree with for whom Christ died for

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​
OBTW this list taken from a 77 page article here,

http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/allthealls.html#anchor89764
 
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EchoPneuma

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Der Alter said:
Ignoring all the posts that contradict your false interpretation of these out-of-context verses does not prove anything. It shows the context of nothing since you have, among virtually every other scripture posted, ignored these 28 passages spoken by Jesus.

BWAHAHAHAHA:D I posted approx. 70 verses that clearly show universal salvation as the common theme of the entire bible and again all you can say is that they are out of context. But of course YOUR 28 verses are completely in context and are the ones that should be heeded....even though you mistranslate greek words to get your interpretation of them.

What an agenda you have......;)


And you have absolutely not proved anything about any words being mistranslated.

Sure we have. But we can also see you will never admit it. We've shown consistently how you have mislead by trying to say that "aionion" means eternal, when it's PRIMARY meaning was always "for an age" and not eternal....yet you ignore it's PRIMARY meaning and grab hold of it's non primary meaning for your own purposes of falsely interpreting an "eternal" punishment in hell.

THen YOU ignore ALL the scriptures (that I posted) that refute your belief with some "knee jerk" response that they are all out of context. That seems to be your only port in the storm is to claim that whatever refutes your belief is an "out of context" verse. BALONEY. Read them in context if you wish. They are all there for anyone to see. They say what they say.

If is YOU who are pulling verses out of the context of the entire bible, mistranslating words in them, cobbling together some fragments from early church fathers, citing secondary meanings of greek words and then claiming that your doctrine is the true one. Never giving ANY explanation for those verses that refute your belief except to say that they are "out of context".

Explain this one pastor.....

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:4

Put it in CONTEXT if you like. It won't change it one bit. It says that GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED.

Know what the greek word for "will" is there? It's "thelo". Know what it means? It means to not only will, but to carry something out that you have willed. It's will with INTENTION. Paul says that this is the TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE and that he's NOT LYING.

Explain that verse to me pastor. What does it mean that "God WILL (and will carry it out) have all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".??

WHAT DOES IT MEAN??? It's the true gospel according to Paul so you better understand it.
 
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Der Alte

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EchoPneuma said:
[SIZE=-1]Explain this one pastor.....

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:4

Put it in CONTEXT if you like. It won't change it one bit. It says that GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED.

Know what the greek word for "will" is there? It's "thelo". Know what it means? It means to not only will, but to carry something out that you have willed. It's will with INTENTION. Paul says that this is the TRUE GOSPEL MESSAGE and that he's NOT LYING.

Explain that verse to me pastor. What does it mean that "God WILL (and will carry it out) have all men be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".??

WHAT DOES IT MEAN??? It's the true gospel according to Paul so you better understand it.[/SIZE]

Another follow the leader knee jerk response.

I have addressed several of your (collective) out-of-context proof texts. To date I don't think you (individually) have addressed anything I have posted.

Jesus is my savior NOT Paul, everything Paul, Peter, John James, Jude, said must square with what Jesus said.

Evidently you are calling Jesus a liar. Neither you nor any other universalist has addressed the passages spoken by the master. Now if you want to do me the courtesy of responding to my posts, I will address this post. I guarantee you you won't like the answer.

And finally anyone who says that I have mistranslated aion or aionios or any other Greek word, or that any major Bible translation does, is a bald faced liar.

The lack of truth in the entire universalist community here is represented by the fact that for many, many, days everyone of you has been saying that aion/aionios never, ever means eternal. Now you are claiming that eternal, etc. is the secondary meaning. And not a single one of you knows the first thing about Greek. If it is not posted at hellmakers then you don't know it or recognize it.
 
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red77

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Der Alter said:
Another follow the leader knee jerk response.

I have addressed several of your (collective) out-of-context proof texts. To date I don't think you (individually) have addressed anything I have posted.

Jesus is my savior NOT Paul, everything Paul, Peter, John James, Jude, said must square with what Jesus said.

Evidently you are calling Jesus a liar. Neither you nor any other universalist has addressed the passages spoken by the master. Now if you want to do me the courtesy of responding to my posts, I will address this post. I guarantee you you won't like the answer.

And finally anyone who says that I have mistranslated aion or aionios or any other Greek word, or that any major Bible translation does, is a bald faced liar.

The lack of truth in the entire universalist community here is represented by the fact that for many, many, days everyone of you has been saying that aion/aionios never, ever means eternal. Now you are claiming that eternal, etc. is the secondary meaning. And not a single one of you knows the first thing about Greek. If it is not posted at hellmakers then you don't know it or recognize it.

It seems you have to have your 'hell' in order for you to have your heaven no matter what anyone says..........

as for the lack of truth among all universalists..........there are truths other than those that come out of a book that are just as important........
carry on with the greek quotes......the truth is i've yet to see any compassion in a single post of yours..........yet i can see much in the words of Jesus........
Go figure.......
 
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EchoPneuma

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Der Alter said:
Another follow the leader knee jerk response.

I have addressed several of your (collective) out-of-context proof texts. To date I don't think you (individually) have addressed anything I have posted.

Jesus is my savior NOT Paul, everything Paul, Peter, John James, Jude, said must square with what Jesus said.

Evidently you are calling Jesus a liar. Neither you nor any other universalist has addressed the passages spoken by the master. Now if you want to do me the courtesy of responding to my posts, I will address this post. I guarantee you you won't like the answer.

And finally anyone who says that I have mistranslated aion or aionios or any other Greek word, or that any major Bible translation does, is a bald faced liar.

The lack of truth in the entire universalist community here is represented by the fact that for many, many, days everyone of you has been saying that aion/aionios never, ever means eternal. Now you are claiming that eternal, etc. is the secondary meaning. And not a single one of you knows the first thing about Greek. If it is not posted at hellmakers then you don't know it or recognize it.

As usual you can't address the question. You can't tell me what that scripture means because YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS and you don't like it. So all you can do is keep spouting "knee jerk", "liar", "hellmaker", "out of context", "you're saying Jesus is a liar".... blah blah blah. You remind me of an octopus...when confronted with a threat, just muddy the waters so that no one can see what's going on.

And you are the LIAR when you say that the universalists have been saying for days that aionios NEVER EVER means eternal. I've never said that. Show me who said that! I've said that it's PRIMARY meaning is "age long" and it's secondary meaning could be eternal. It's YOU preacher that wants to MISLEAD people into believing it's meaning could ONLY be eternal by deliberately highlighting the secondary meaning and skipping over the first and PRIMARY meaning of it. You are accusing others of what you yourself are doing. Can you spell HYPOCRITE?

And then you go on to say that none of us knows the first thing about Greek. Wanna have a contest holy man??? YOu have NO IDEA what any of our educational backgrounds are...yet you have to present yourself as the "know it all" of this forum and the authority in greek so that you can continue to spout your drivel. I say PHOOEY on your so called "knowledge"....it's obviously left you without an ounce of love, compassion or civility to others. "Knowledge PUFFS UP...but love BUILDS UP".

YOu say that I won't like what you have to say about that scripture. WELL SAY IT. Tell me what that scripture means. What did Paul MEAN when he said that....

"God WILL HAVE all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"?
 
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EchoPneuma

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Here you go Der Alter. I will address these two "out of context" verses that you posted.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


How does that square with this....

1 Timothy 2:6
who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

and this....

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

See, I can refute those scriptures with these scriptures. So you must be misunderstanding what "many" means. Perhaps this verse will clarify....

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So whoever the "many" were that were made sinners because of Adam's disobedience, that's the "many" who WILL BE made righteous as a result of the obedience of Jesus.

See how it all explains itself if you don't pull things out of the context of all of scripture.

But you don't like it, so you keep doing it.
 
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Der Alter said:
Irrelevant to the question but where did God decree that Ninevah would be overthrown?

Now would you like to address your out-of-context question in light of my answer without irrelevant scripture diversions?
Did you mean when? 40 days
Did you mean where? Right where it is.
Did you mean in what verse did God declare this? 3:1-5
 
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Der Alter said:
Jesus is my savior NOT Paul, everything Paul, Peter, John James, Jude, said must square with what Jesus said.

Evidently you are calling Jesus a liar.

Evidently you are calling Paul a liar. At least we do know with some great amount of certainty that Paul wrote his words... even non-believers acceed to that. Even believers argue about the accuracy of the transcriptions of Jesus' words.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Der Alter said:
And finally anyone who says that I have mistranslated aion or aionios or any other Greek word, or that any major Bible translation does, is a bald faced liar.
Would you consider Youngs Literal Tranaslation a "major Bible translation" ?

The lack of truth in the entire universalist community here is represented by the fact that for many, many, days everyone of you has been saying that aion/aionios never, ever means eternal. Now you are claiming that eternal, etc. is the secondary meaning. And not a single one of you knows the first thing about Greek. If it is not posted at hellmakers then you don't know it or recognize it.
The fact... :doh:

It appears that you have no problems bending the truth to service your agenda. Can you show me one post where I made the statement to which you are crediting to everyone of us? Before you waste your time looking know that I did not make such a statement. Therefore your fact is in error and your statement of fact is either a mistake or an intentional deception on your part.
 
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FineLinen said:
Being savy enough to stay out of your little snare, is wisdom earned from experiance, not cowardice, as portrayed by your silly little cartoon.
Your actions, and especially the fact that you failed to make your point without being able to do so at my expence, only proves my point.
Again, I have seen no good comming from you.
 
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Der Alter said:
Evidently you are calling Jesus a liar. Neither you nor any other universalist has addressed the passages spoken by the master. Now if you want to do me the courtesy of responding to my posts, I will address this post. I guarantee you you won't like the answer.
The one who uses what was spoken by the master, out of the context in which He meant it to be, or changes the meaning of a word which He used in such passages, is the one who is calling Him a liar. And this you have done, time and time again.

Now please address 1Tim. 2:1-6, and stop making excuses. In other words, either "put up or shut up."
 
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"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God, and one mediator/ intermediary between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Who gave Himself a ransom for all mankind to be testified in due time."

"Who will have all mankind to be saved."

Will have= Thelo=


A strengthened form of haireomai (to take for oneself.)

To will.

To have in mind.

To intend. To purpose.

To be resolved and determined.

To desire. To wish. To love. To be fond of doing.

To take delight and pleasure in doing.

I will/ thelo rise again!

Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantov anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai). Literally: who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose. -Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. Word Studies.






 
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