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timlamb said:I am saying that you do not know what righteousness is. It includes justice, and yes, that includes eternal damnation for those who turn their hearts agains God.
Soul Searcher said:righteousness inherently means rightness do right be right act right. And what is justice when the scale is tipped to intolerable cruelty? True justice would have the tormentor cast into torment and the victims released.
timlamb said:I am not because you misinterpret again. You skip right over the words "... to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment"
Christ will rule over heaven and earth, as discribed in the book of Revelation.
KCDAD said:oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...
KCDAD said:oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...
katallasso said:tim,
Thanks so much, apology accepted.
But I'm gonna have to take issue with your scripture .
(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:
That Rotherham does seem to encourage your view. I followed the big debate with Der Alter over "Age" vs. "Eternal", and grew quite weary of it. I believe it is evident that there are ages from the begining of the earth. What I don't see is anywhere that truth changes between them; like the age when time ceases, and all that remains will remain that way for ever; age, to age, to age.
The words "never, never" sound eternal.
Isaiah has more scripture that, to me, sound eternal.
EchoPneuma said:I didn't skip over anything. I haven't misinterpreted anything. THe rest of that verse doesn't change the meaning one whit. Even if you believe the "time of fulfillment" is in the future...it STILL says that God's WILL is to bring EVERYTHING in heaven and earth under ONE HEAD WHO IS CHRIST.
Are you now saying that God's will IS NOT going to be done? Make up your mind....
timlamb[SIZE=4 said:(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:[/SIZE]
This went over my head the first time I read it but after seeing your follow up post I understand your point here..KCDAD said:oooh, that's the "do unto others thing"... so if God wanted to punish us, he would have to punish himself instead...
timlamb said:My mind is made up, all heaven and earth will be under one head, who is Christ, after the time of fulfillment, "judgement"
one thing that gets me about it people who advocate eternal hell is that 'these people dererve, it, they were wicked' which seems to encompass everyone from mass murderers to ordinary agnostics........KCDAD said:Are we talking about hell here (or Gehenna or whatever) or are we talking about the streams of Edom[verse 9]? Are we being literal for part of this scripture and figurative for the other?
I have always wondered how many of them would say it is just and righteous and deserved if they themselves ended up there.red77 said:one thing that gets me about it people who advocate eternal hell is that 'these people dererve, it, they were wicked' which seems to encompass everyone from mass murderers to ordinary agnostics........
Its also the 'out of sight out of mind' thing, i wonder how many people who are so willing to accept it would be quite so comfortable with it if they could actually see man and women undergoing excruiating pain...?
But obviously its not a concern so it can easily be wiped over.........
Soul Searcher said:I have always wondered how many of them would say it is just and righteous and deserved if they themselves ended up there.
for all of you quoting the sermon on th Mount;this discourse is given, by Jesus to the disciples, as an outline for Christian living. He expands on the law, making it more restrictive for His followers; holding them to the higher standards. It by no means diminishes the need for faith in Christ for salvation.KCDAD said:Speaking out of turn... they will receive mercy... they get a better, higher spot in Gehenna.
A common misconception regaurding the sermon on the mount. Read it more closely and think about what it says and who is hearing it.timlamb said:for all of you quoting the sermon on th Mount;this discourse is given, by Jesus to the disciples, as an outline for Christian living. He expands on the law, making it more restrictive for His followers; holding them to the higher standards. It by no means diminishes the need for faith in Christ for salvation.
EchoPneuma said:I'm glad you see the light. So when all men have been judged, purified and brought to repentance then ALL MEN in heaven or on the earth will be brought under the headship of CHrist for eternity.
Glad you finally see it.
Soul Searcher said:A common misconception regaurding the sermon on the mount. Read it more closely and think about what it says and who is hearing it.
At the start of the sermon it says that there were multitudes following him, .. when his disciples had gathered round he began to teach them saying....
Jump to the end.. and the multidues were astonished at his doctorine for he taught them...
To me it is clear that he was speaking to and being heard by the multitudes. Also if we look at the didache [teaching of the twelve] we see the basic ideas that are conveyed in the sermon on the mount being preached to the people by the disciples of Christ.
Conclusion: It is clear that this message was intended for all mankind and as Jesus says he who hears and obeys is wise and he who hears and obeys not is foolish.
timlamb said:No! I had no reason to take things personaly, you never twist my words.
I NEVER said that; I see it, but not your way.
Your "purification process" is fantacy. If you could burn repentance into all men, you still wouldn't have faith.
timlamb said:Because I take it in context with all of scripture. And sense all of scripture says after death comes judgement, it is safe to say that those dead were taught while alive.
Those are the questions we have been dealing with for 600 posts. I could put an answer to every question, but it would not matter.EchoPneuma said:I didn't twist your words. I said what I thought you meant.
And how do you KNOW that repentance can't be brought about in men by chastisement? Isn't that the way God ALWAYS brought about repentance in the Israelites.....by punishment and chastisment?
Where in the bible does it say that God's chastisment and call to repentance stops at physical death?
Show me ONE scripture that says that after physical death that man has no more chances to repent and be saved?
And by what authority do you say that such repentance would not produce faith? Can you see into the souls of men?
Why do you want to believe that God is finished dealing with a soul just because it sheds the body?
Why do you believe that only in this physical life is the chance for repentance and salvation? What are you basing it on?
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