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Hell is not permanent.

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timlamb

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*It's God's desire, it is our choice.
If God wills it, no man or angel or any being in heaven or on earth, can stop it.
 
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Der Alte

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Havahope said:
...[SIZE=-1]Jesus taught an "age lasting" punishment, chastisement or maybe correction. Ages have beginnings, and ages have endings. Eternity doesn't.[/SIZE]

You can quote the satanic stuff from hellmakers all you like. The owner of that website has shown no evidence of any qualification in the Biblical languages.

Here once again from the secular LSJ classical Greek lexicon. I stress "secular" because they do not have any theological view whatever to promote. They are/were only interested in how the original speakers defined words. The scholarship, i.e. the ancient pre-Christian Greek writings, documenting the definitions is shown in red.

And having posted this I have absolutely no doubt you will ingore this and any other evidence which proves you wrong. But this is not just for your benefit, it is for anyone who might be confused about this. They can see for themselves which definition is based on scholarship, and evidence and which is just the unsupported assumptions and presuppositions of the person who wrote them.
Liddell-Scott-Jones A Greek Lexicon

[size=+1]αιων[/size] aion onos, ho, Ion. and Ep. also he, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. aio like Poseido, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly aiWon, cf. aevum, v. aiei):--period of existence (to telos to periechon ton tes hekastou zoes chronon . . aion hekastou kekletai Arist.Cael.279a25 ):

I. lifetime, life, psuche te kai aion Il.16.453 ; ek d' ai. pephatai Il.19.27 ; mede toi ai. phthineto Od.5.160 ; leipei tina Il.5.685 ; ap' aionos neos oleo (Zenod. neon) 24.725; teleutan ton aiôna Hdt.1.32 , etc.; aionos sterein tina A.Pr.862 ; aiona dioichnein Id.Eu.315 ; sundiatribein Cratin. 1 ; ai. Aiakidan, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; apepneusen aiona E.Fr.801 ; emon kat' aiona A.Th.219 .

2. age, generation, ai. es triton ib.744; ho mellon aion posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.

3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.

II. long space of time, age, aion gignetai 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ap' aionos of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; hoi apo tou ai. Rhomaioi D.C. 63.20 ; di' aionos perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; di' aionos makrou, apaustou, A.Supp.582,574; ton di' ai. chronon for ever, Id.Ag.554; eis hapanta ton ai. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; eis ton ai. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; eis aiona aionos LXX Ps.131(132).14 ; ex aionos kai heos aionos ib.Je.7.7; ep' ai. ib.Ex.15.18; heos aionos ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:-- without a Prep., ton hapanta ai. Arist. Cael.279a22; ton aiona Lycurg. 62 , Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. chronos, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; tous huper tou aionos phobous Epicur.Sent.20 .

2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ho aion houtos this present world, opp. ho mellon, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ho nun ai. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:--hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; eis pantas tous ai. LXX To.13.4 ; eis tous ai.ib. Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; eis tous ai. ton aionon LXX 4 Ma.18.24 , Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; apo ton ai., pro ton ai., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; ta tele ton ai. ib.10.11.
[…]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

[size=+1]αιωνιος[/size] aionios , on, also a, on Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:--lasting for an age (aion 11 ), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. aidios, Plot.3.7.3), methe Pl.R. 363d ; anolethron . . all' ouk aionion Id.Lg.904a , cf. Epicur. Sent.28; ai. kata psuchen ochlesis Id.Nat.131 G.; kaka, deina, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; ai. amoibais basanisthesomenoi ib.19; tou ai. theou Ep.Rom. 16.26 , Ti.Locr.96c; ou chronie mounon . . all' aionie Aret.CA1.5 ; ai. diatheke, nomimon, prostagma, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; zoe Ev.Matt.25.46 , Porph.Abst.4.20; kolasis Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; pro chronon ai.2 Ep.Tim. 1.9 : opp. proskairos, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.[/color]

2. holding an office or title for life,perpetual, gumnasiarchos CPHerm.62 .

3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.

4. Adv. -ios eternally, nous akinetos ai. panta ôn Procl.Inst.172 , cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, misein Sch.E.Alc.338.

5. aionion, to, = aeizoon to mega, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
 
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red77

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well, i joined this forum to meet people with faith and to try and rekindle my own which i'll admit , has been somewhat lacking of late, i didnt join it to purely discuss scripture

At this moment I do not in fact have a bible, and i've no doubt there are many, many here if not possibly everyone who has a better knowledge of scripture and certain texts than i have

But the bible is not the only way in which to be spoke to by God, over the last few days on this forum I've experienced a reawakeng in spirit that i neither looked for or expected to find, that being from the words, actions and grace of others here, God works through people as much as words in a book

Conscience is given to us by God, and if i believe that then its my yardstick to a lot of what i do in life, at times i've ignored it and have done things that were wrong, but there are times I believe that intrinsically you know certain things to be right and others wrong and your conscience (at least in my experience) will not allow me to ignore it,

I didnt leave the church i was in (pentecostal) purely on a whim of conscience, i left because every fibre of my being knew that it was wrong to stay,

likewise I didnt adopt universalism on a whim of conscience either, i'd already aligned myself with one church to just blindly stumble into another with no questions

And my conscience has no difficulty with making the decision to be a universalist because every fibre of my being feels it to be right, it did when i first encountered it and it gave me hope, and it still does now, and i'm well aware that this is a personal testimony and I've used the word 'I' a lot but quite frankly so what?

If I'm wrong and you and other traditional evengeicals are right then i'll find out soon enough, but at least i'll know that my decision to leave the evangelical churchwas genuine and done after much soul searching, whatever else i knew i was being true to myself then and before God
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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If all you wanted was to fellowship with others with like beliefs, then you probably should have chosen a Universalist forum.

This is a traditional, historical, Evangelical Christian forum, with this one sub-forum for unorthodox theologies. Anything you post here will be read and challenged by traditional Evangelicals. And I think I can safely say, that they will, like me, be less than receptive to any belief that is based primarily on someone's subjective "conscience" and which ignores or contradicts scripture.
 
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EchoPneuma

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timlamb said:
*It's God's desire, it is our choice.
If God wills it, no man or angel or any being in heaven or on earth, can stop it.

Tha't right. If it's God's will....nothing can stop it. And the bible clearly says that God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

So, can any being in heaven or earth stop God's will from happening? If you say "no", as you state above.....then NO MAN will perish and ALL will come to repentance because it IS GOD'S WILL for it to happen.

Eph 1: 9-1


9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Hence, I am a universalist. Why aren't you?
 
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EchoPneuma

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No they don't. That's not what they say at all. That's what you WANT them to say. They don't say that the gospel was preached to those people when they were alive, but they are now dead. It says that it was preached TO THE DEAD. It couldn't be clearer. But since this doesn't fit in with your doctrines, you must change the meaning of what it says. Why don't you just take that verse for what it plainly says and incorporate it into your beliefs instead of changing it to fit in with your doctrines?
 
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EchoPneuma

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Your out of context proof texts prove nothing. You haven't shown why the gospel was preached to dead people. There could be only one reason. You also haven't shown that it meant anything but physically dead.

Just continue to ignore all the scriptures that refute what you believe and spout your out of context proof texts. It proves nothing.
 
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KCDAD

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timlamb said:
at least the others try to support their beliefs with scripture, you just make it up as you go. I won't challenge your imagination.
And yet I will try to challenge yours... where can you go that God is not? Where can you come from where God is not in order to be with God?
You are so sure Heaven is a place you are going to go to... and that hell is a place you are not going.
God is in one and not the other?
 
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EchoPneuma

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Paul say in Acts that "In Him we live and move and have our being".

All of existence is WITHIN God Himself. We are literally swimming in a sea of the essence of God all around us and we don't even know it. He "fills the universe". Jesus said "the kingdom is WITHIN YOU".

David said "If I make my bed in Sheol...you are there".

If heaven is wherever God is.....then Heaven is everywhere. I believe it is a state of spiritual mind and not a place. I see where you're coming from.
 
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KCDAD

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Der Alter said:
The only little problem is you did not read my previous posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
OK here my attempt to address your Jewish encyclopedia article. For clarity I printed my responses in Green so they could be distinguished from your article.
Notice, it doesn't take scripture to counter these argument, because these arguments are not based on scripture. All it takes is reason.

Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14).
For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. SO hell is a good place. Torture, punishment, eternal retribution for temporal violations… Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna Abraham saw Gehenna according to this. The Valley of Hinnom in Abraham’s time was a fertile, lovely place… a garden so to speak. (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. IS this literal or figurative? If literal it is nonsense. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna.
Oh I see, now it is clear that the former reference was not literal. How could they measure a real place Gehenna based on a flat world view of the Earth? Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6).

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot Hmmmm, Do you notice the Hebrew trend here to repeat symbolic numbers? Just like rain for 40 days and nights, 40 years in the wilderness, 40 days in the desert…? as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna IS it really sulfur or rotten eggs? (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night This is of course not literal… fire gives off light, but there can be no light in hell because God is light and light represents wisdom.(Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed
ASSUMED????? You mean they do not know this? that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" [Note, When does this end??] ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed
oops assumed again. in general that sinners Can you define this? Is there anyone who is not a sinner? go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell" [Note, When does this end??] (B. M. 83b). Paradise must be a real lonely place… let’s see, there would be Jesus, er no, he’s at the right hand of God sitting on his throne. God can’t be in Paradise because it is a real place with measured limits. God is infinite. So that would leave… Elijah?

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth
ahhh, like high rise condos… the most desired are at the top…commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" [Note, When does this end??] ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men;
You gotta love this… there are three kinds of people in the world: those who always sin, those who never sin, and all the rest. HA! the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months It takes that long in a fire 60 times hotter than anything on Earth? their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. Good thing there are many pious or there would be ashes all over the place. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners.
This here is sick and incomprehensible. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool Gehenna is actually a fiery pool then… when they call it a pit, they were being metaphorical? So was Enoch right or not? Is it just the heathen (GENTILES) or is it all the sinners? on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies But the dead bodies were destroyed! What does destroyed mean here? on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for "God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners [Note, When does this end??] (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna
HUH? The Greek which means “Valley of Hinnom” actually really and truly means something completely different? (הנס = חנס ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. Where did they get all this? They don’t read Strong. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

 
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KCDAD

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Der Alter said:
You can quote the satanic stuff
Since you brought him up... let's talk about Satan, Lucifer, the devil, The Fallen Angel, The Morning Star, The Serpent, The Beast, The Anti Christ...

Can you find any consensus in scripture about him or them? Which Son of The Morning Star does John refer to in Revelation? Are there more than one? In Job, is Satan working for God or working for his own ends? Does Satan have any power over Jesus in the wilderness or is this just a shadow boxing session? How can Satan even bring himself to speak to The Son of God? Was Peter really possessed by the Devil when Jesus told him to "get behind me Satan"?
IS Satan the one guardian of the gates of Gehenna?
 
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Soul Searcher

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Well you have quoted a lot of scripture but you avoided actually answering the question directly. Si I guess I should infer that you are saying the merciful nonbeliever will be sentenced to eternity in hell without mercy.

Jesus said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mery.

Do you see just a small contradiction here?
 
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KCDAD

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Soul Searcher said:
Jesus said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mery.

Do you see just a small contradiction here?

Speaking out of turn... they will receive mercy... they get a better, higher spot in Gehenna.
 
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red77

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well , thats ok, although i didnt say that my belief was based on my conscience anyway, nor did i say that i ignored scripture, also i didnt join this forum to just have fellowship with people with similar beliefs, part of me came here to be enlightened which has happened, not in the ways i necessarily thought but i have no complaints about that, even the posts from yourself have contributed in their own way, its a reminder of the strict/rigid fundamentalism that i threw off quite a while ago, and why i wouldnt want to return there......
 
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Jipsah

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Contradicts your doctrinal interpretation of Scripture, anyway. Let's face it, in the end you've got a half dozen verses max that support your position, and a ton that don't You have to declare Saint Paul to be wrong when he told us that "the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life" because you believe that the curse of God is eternal life under torture. The verses that you adduce to support the idea of eternal torment can be, and are, understood to mean a period of torment, not an eternity of it. That position happens to be consistent with the Scriptures that seem to contradict the notion of eternal torment (hereinafter "ET").

In the beginning was the doctrine, and the doctrine was both weakly formed and strongly held; built, as it were, on interpretive sand. And that's the problem, the doctrine comes first, and the Bible must be made to go along. So you base your arguments on a handful of probably ill-interpreted Scriptures and a lot of arm waving, in the process setting at naught all the rest of the Bible and the evidence of human conscience that argues to the contrary. To cap it all off you accuse those who don't embrace the doctrine of disbelieving the Bible. That's take a lot of chutzpah if nothing else.

BTW, apparently St. Paul had a different view of conscience than you do as well, since he invoked conscience as the guiding force for "gentiles who have not the Law". I don't think you and he would have gotten along at all.
 
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katallasso

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tim,

Thanks so much, apology accepted.

But I'm gonna have to take issue with your scripture .

(Rotherham) Isaiah 34:10 Neither night nor day, shall it be quenched, To times age-abiding, shall ascend the smoke thereof,--From generation to generation, shall it be waste, Never, never, shall any pass through it:


 
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Soul Searcher

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red77 said:
At this moment I do not in fact have a bible, and i've no doubt there are many, many here if not possibly everyone who has a better knowledge of scripture and certain texts than i have
You might want to download the e-sword software for your pc. It is a very good searchable bible comes with a KJV with strongs and has other versions, concordances, dictionarys and such that can be added into it. Most are free to download. www.e-sword.com
 
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KCDAD

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Soul Searcher said:
But since heat rises would not a higher spot be even worse

HA! Gotcha... you must bow before and beg forgiveness.... You have assumed hell... oops I mean Gehenna is below!!!!! But what is "below" on a three dimensional round globe? Below to The U.S. is not the same direction as below to China... The world may not be floating in space with the North Pole on top of the planet... for all we know our view of the Earth is upside down in space.
I am the greatest!!!! uh... I forgot about gravity... and differential air pressures and temperatures... uh... nevermind.
 
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red77

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Thanks soul searcher, I'll see if i can download, i think i'll have to get it again in book format as well though, I'm not usually without a bible one way or another......
 
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