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Hell is not permanent.

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Havahope

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timlamb said:
. . . . the belief that hell is here on earth is so far from scripture, it isn't even Universalist.
Click to expand...
Where, in the scripture, does it say where hell is?
timlamb said:
What ever you believe about hell, you are not saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH, if you die in unbelief.
Click to expand...
There are those who never really either consciously "accept" or "reject" Christ. They don't really think about it one way or the other. What of those?


What, in your opinion, is the standard for accepting, or believing in Christ?
 
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KCDAD

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timlamb said:
KCDAD, the belief that hell is here on earth is so far from scripture, it isn't even Universalist.

katallasso, if you die without faith in Christ, you do not go to heaven;
Click to expand...

My friend, cast not your "pearls" before this swine. You can not find "hell" in either Jewish or Christian scripture so don't try that old argument with me. What you will find is idiomatic references to living in despair, being cast out of society, guilt and shame. You will find a burning, torturous realm of Hades, the Greek god of the underworld. However, I don't believe or any other Christian would subscribe to that particular Greek myth.
Do you think Jesus believes in Greek mythology? Or is it more likely Jesus believes in the Hebrew belief in Sheol?

As for your comment to katallasso, I don't believe that authority has been given to you to judge others. AND if youthink heaven is some place you are going to go to someday in the future... oh well, you are missing on a wonderful trip right now. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand... the Kingdom is here! It isn't someplace to go to someday... [staff edit] Eternal life does not begin when you die... [staff edit]. It is already begun.
 
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katallasso

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Thought ya might find this interesting.
Not exactly the Universalist's belief but close.

This is from Wikipedia:

Gehinom is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "hell", but one should note that the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view. For Christians, hell is an abode of eternal torment or separation from God, where serious sinners and/or non-Christians go (details vary among Christian denominations). In Judaism, gehinom - while certainly a terribly unpleasant place - is not hell. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even the closest relatives of Jews will not mourn, or sit Shiv'ah, for the dead for longer than an eleven month period. Some consider Gehinom a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden").

Here again we see "purification".

Here's more:
Does Judaism believe in Heaven and Hell?


Judaism does have a concept of reward and punishment in the afterlife. However, since words we use bring to mind certain images, particularly “Heaven” and “Hell,” it is better to use the Jewish terminology which comes without the baggage.

When someone dies, the disembodied soul leaves this sensory world and enters “Gan Eden,” the spiritual Garden of Eden (a.k.a. “Heaven&#8221. In the Garden of Eden, the soul enjoys the “rays of the Divine Presence,” a purely spiritual enjoyment dependent on the Torah learning and good deeds done while in a body. Every year on the yahrtzeit, the day of passing, the soul ascends to another level closer to G-d. This gives it tremendous pleasure.

Before entering the Garden of Eden, though, every soul must be refined, for it cannot enjoy the Divine Presence to the fullest degree with the pleasures and coarseness of our physical world still engraved on it. These would give the soul poor “reception” of divine radiance, and must be removed.

In order to restore the level of purity the soul had possessed before entering the physical world, it must undergo a degree of refinement commensurate to the degree which the body may have indulged itself. If a person sinned in this lifetime, as most of us do, then, to continue the radio analogy, we have serious interference. This means there is even more cleaning to be done. This cleaning process hurts, but is a spiritual and mental process designed not for retribution, but to allow one to truly enjoy his/her reward in Gan Eden. This cleaning process is called “Gehinom,” or, in the vernacular, “Hell.”

Mrs. Sarah Levi
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:-ozbkjcMOOsJ:www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html%3Fh%3D135%26o%3D164+jewish+belief+hell&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19&client=firefox-a

This took me about 20 minutes. Imagine what I could find if I didn't have to go cook supper.


​
However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.
In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are said to come from this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:5pB_S-b-2DkJ:shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/12-08.html+jewish+belief+hell&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=21&client=firefox-a
 
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KCDAD again.
 
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Der Alte

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Jewish Encyclopedia-GEHENNA

By : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a).

"The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Sotah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903). Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Hag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud.

The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6).

In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna ([SIZE=+1]הנס = חנס[/SIZE] ; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Sotah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G
​
 
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Der Alte

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Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.
[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in [size=+1]no case[/size] enter into the kingdom of heaven.​
For universalism to be true, Jesus must be a liar, or sometime in the future the words, “ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.,” must change to, “in all cases you shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”

When do these words change?

Can sinners, the wicked, the disobedient, etc., be more righteous, than the Pharisees, and enter the kingdom? See, Ps 14:2-3; Isa 53:6; Rom 3:10.
[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] [/b]and few there be that find it.[/b]

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will [size=+1]say[/size][sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

[sup]2[/sup] Note ,Jesus did NOT say they “have done many wonderful works,” but they only “say,” they have. Makes me think of some TV “evangelists,” getting rich “in the name of Jesus.”

Jesus said, ”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Either Jesus is a liar or the teaching of universalism, is false, which claims “everyone” will enter the kingdom.

In the following, vs. 23, of this passage, Jesus said, “I never knew you.” Jesus did not say, “I will know you some day..” 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word, Jesus’ words, will still say “I never knew you.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I [size=+1]never[/size] knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.​
For universalism to be true, Jesus would have to be a liar here, or this verse, must change to say, “I will not deny you before my father.” When do the words change?
[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” These are the words of Jesus, but Universalists cannot accept/believe in a God, or Jesus, who will punish or torment the wicked in fire.

Where does Jesus say they will come out of the fire? What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.​
[sup]3[/sup] Is there any scripture that documents anyone being “converted,” ever, at any time, after death?

Is there any scripture which states that the wicked, who are severed from the just, will be rescued from the fire and reunited with the just?
[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​
See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.
[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.[/indent]
Jesus said that few are chosen for the Kingdom of heaven. Universalism claims that everyone will enter the kingdom. Is Jesus a liar?
[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.” If universalism is true, then at some point Jesus must lift the curse and call them blessed. When does that occur?

Or 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the αιωνιον/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the αιωνιον/aiónion life. The same word.

Does αιωνιον/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [[size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size]/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
If the [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does [size=+1]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/size] means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”
[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​
If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[continued next post]
 
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Der Alte

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[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death. Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​
What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?
[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​
[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, usually not clearly understood, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​
When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When do the words change?
[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​
[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”
[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​
When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.
 
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Der Alte

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katallasso said:
[SIZE=-1]1 Cor 3:15...If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[/SIZE]
Click to expand...

This is one of the main out-of-context proof texts Universalists like to cite to “prove” that everyone will be saved in the end, no matter what. And as quoted it sure seems to say that .
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​
Nothing could be clearer than that, right? It says every man, in creation, will be saved doesn’t it? No! It does not.

Is this addressed to, the entire world? Again, no! This is only addressed to, “labourers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building.” vs. 9. Not every person who ever lived.

Does this proof text say that the work of every person, ever born, will be tried by fire? No again! Only the work of those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ regardless of the building material, will be destroyed, vs. 11.

Again this one out-of-context proof text is always cited to “prove” that every man will be saved. But let jus read on a few more verses, “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.”

NOT, every man will be saved, but EVERY man who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed.
1 Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.​
One last comment on this verse, and every other verse, Universalists quote to prove their false doctrine. Virtually every Universalist proof text is from the epistles, written by the apostles. They cite their out-of-context proof texts and ignore the 28 passages where Jesus clearly taught that many would never enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather than being freed from hell, they can never leave.
 
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katallasso

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Now I know where many of the early fathers got their beliefs on a prugatory type hell. Here's more on what jews believe about hell.

QUESTION: Do Jews believe in Heaven and Hell?
ANSWER: Although the Jewish Bible appears to focus primarily on our life and behavior in this world, Judaism definitely believes in Heaven and life after death. The plural form in Genesis 1:26, "Let us form man in our image," indicates that man has a dual nature -- a spiritual soul and a physical body. This is clearly seen in Genesis 2:7, "G-d formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (soul--
) of life and man became a living being."
When a person dies the physical body returns to the earth, but the spiritual soul lives on eternally, as it says, "The dust will return to the earth, as it was, and the spirit will return to G-d who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
We do not believe in eternal damnation and hell. The Jewish belief is in a purgatory that purifies the soul of its spiritual blemishes prior to its return to G-d. (Psalm 49:15, II Samuel 14:13, Isaiah 45:17)
For a more thorough description of heaven and life after death, see "If You Were G-d" in the suggested reading list.

Isa 45:17 Israel has been saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation; You will not be put to shame or humiliated To all eternity.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_faq.html


Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.

The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.

The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).

Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).
http://myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Afterlife_TO/AE_HeavenHell_Rose.htm

This is not exactly Christian Universalist belief but very close.

Again der is quoting from his beloved Jewish Encyclopedia. I have quoted several different sources.
 
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Der Alte

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No it is a meaningless cut and paste from hellmakers anti-Christian website. Some of the so-called quotes on this list I have already proved, in previous posts, do not say what this list claims they said. Here are links to my previous post and names from this list I have already refuted.

Irenaeus, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria,

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22639678&postcount=227

Gregory Nazianzeu

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22668703&postcount=247

Tertullian, Tatian, Commodianus, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Clement of Rome, Polycarp.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22668976&postcount=248

Augustine

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22669883&postcount=250

The major failing of this list is the work from which the quote supposedly is taken is not identified. A name and a date means absolutely nothing. For example; Athanasius has 91 writings at CCEL; Gregory of Nyssa, 50 writings; Ambrose, 41; Theodoret 13 works. So from which works do the supposed quotes come from.

This alleged quote from Eusebius supposedly proves he believed in universal salvation. But this is another phony made up quote. As with most of the quotes in this blind cut and paste, there is no citation of the work from which the quotes supposedly is taken.

I have searched all of Eusebius’ writings I can find, this quote does not exist in; Demonstratia Evangelium, 10 books; Encomium of the martyrs, 2 letters; Onomasticon; Preparatio Evangelium,15 books; Theophania, 5 books.

Here are actual, verifiable quotes from the primary source, Eusebius’ own writings, identified by title, as are all my citations. If you can prove anything from this meaningless list then do it.
Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) -- Book 10

Of the Eclipse of the Sun at the Time of Our Saviour's Passion, and of the Total Destruction of the Jewish Nation.

[Passage quoted, Amos viii. 7-12.]

THIS prophecy foretells the pride, insolence and rebellion of the Jews against our Saviour, and says that the Lord (486) sware against the presumption of Jacob, that their insolence |213 against Him should never be forgotten, and that their land and its inhabitants should undergo suffering and mourning, and that no more as before should they be punished a little while and then restored, but that this judgment should last for ever.

Eusebius of Caesarea: HISTORY OF THE MARTYRS IN PALESTINE,

Moreover, I am contending for the sake of my faith, that I may afford encouragment to those who are younger than myself, that they too may despise death while [p. 23] they follow after their true life, and may disregard the grave in order to obtain a kingdom; that they should make light of that which is mortal, and keep in their recollection the life of the Giver of life, nor have any dread of punishment which is momentary, but be in fear of those flames of fire which are never quenched.

Eusebius of Caesarea: The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine

Chapter LIV. What Vengeance Overtook Those Who on Account of the Oracle Raised the Persecution.
"But why need I longer dwell on these lamentable events, and the general sorrow which in consequence pervaded the world? The perpetrators of this dreadful guilt are now no more: they have experienced a miserable end, and are consigned to unceasing punishment in the depths of the lower world.​
 
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Havahope

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Rev. 5: 13. "And EVERY creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Would you Care to comment on this passage?
 
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timlamb

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Scripture says hell is seperation from God. Scripture also says there will be a new heaven and a new earth, where Christ will reign, hell can't be there. To answer these questions you must read the WHOLE bible.
KCDAD says hell is here and now, in this life, which in now way coincides with the scriptures of the Christian bible. We can't be on the same page, we're not even reading the same book.

Those who do not accept Christ do reject Him. If you are trying to be a part of a family, and the family doesn't accept you, wouldn't you feel rejected.
You do not embrace God, He does not embrace you.
timlamb
 
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timlamb

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KCDAD, you obviously don't believe the Christian bible to be the word of God, we have no neutral ground from which to work, that is why I didn't bother trying to reason with you, you are beyond reason; I only disagreed.

As for my statement to katallasso, stating truth is not passing judgement, calling sin, sin, is not passing judgement. I made no comment as to who was or was not going to heven, only what it takes to get there.
I am having a great ride thank you very much. God is Good. But if you think anything here can even compare to the reward that waits for those who believe by faith in the Lord for forgiveness of sin; if you believe heaven and hell are here and now, you don't believe in much.
I'll stick to my chilish faith, and enjoy serving my Lord, AMEN!!!
timlamb
 
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timlamb

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I don,t see anywhere in scripture whare "creature" is used to discribe man.

Havahope, I don't think you know what you believe. You just applauded KCDAD, who said heaven and hell are here and now; then you use scripture to defend the thought that all will go to heaven. I read that Universalists are open to all oppinions of God. Why do you fight orthodox Christian so persistantly?
 
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Der Alte

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Tim has already addressed this but here is my comment.

As I said an out-of-context verse, written by one of the apostles, while the 28 passages spoken by Jesus continue to be ignored.

• What is the word translated "creature" in this verse? [size=+1]κτισμα[/size].
• How many times does it occur in the N.T.? Four, 1 Tim 4:4, James 1:18, Rev 5:13, Rev 8:9.
• What does it mean? “Thing founded, thing created.”
• How many times does is refer to human beings? Never!
• Possible objection. "But, things don't speak." The four beasts said, "Amen."

Now we are done playing, "Neener, neener, neener, here is a verse that utterly, completely, totally, absolutely, destroys the doctrine of eternal punishment and nobody can answer it."

Would you care to go back and address my posts citing scripture?
 
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Der Alte

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Can we say, IRRELEVANT? The issue was NOT what does modern Judaism teach? I was responding to posts that assert that Judaism NEVER, EVER, taught an eternal hell, a place of punishment for the wicked. I proved from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which cites many scriptures and ancient Jewish writings, that ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it Gehenna. Proof listed and ignored.

Note, Is 45:17, ONLY, Israel, not all mankind, has been saved by YHWH.


Two is not many! That is correct. I cited, not a “biased” Christian source or website, but the completely unbiased Jewish Encyclopedia, written by Jews for Jews, which cites many scriptures and ancient Jewish writings, that proves ancient Jews did believe in hell and they called it Gehenna. Documentation posted and ignored. The Jewish Encyclopedia couldn’t care less about any Christian doctrine.

Nothing posted here refutes or disproves anything I have posted. The argument I was replying to was that ancient Jews, “never, ever,” believed in an eternal hell where the wicked were punished or tormented for forever. And even this second quote supports that.

Do Universalists believe, “Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone,” “Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year,” “eternal damnation [in purgatory]?” Those are some of the beliefs in the source you quoted.
 
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katallasso

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Dear Der,


I quoted 5 sites, all of which to my knowledge are jewish not christian sites. And I don't believe they said whether this was modern or ancient belief. The 5 sites were:
The first quote was from Wikipedia.
www.askmoses.com
http://shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/12-08.html
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_faq.html
http://myjewishlearning.com/ideas_be...nHell_Rose.htm
 
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KCDAD

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No need for combat. I could explain each one of your texts sufficiently to disprove this notion of Greek "hell", but who has that much time in front of their computer... (I wouldn't want you to think I only answered the ones I could) so if you choose any three I will gladly present my explanation. You will note that my interpretation will present a consistant, sober, predictable, merciful, just and loving God. I don't see any contradictory descriptions of my God in The Bible... loving one moment, forgiving, redeeming and vengeful, angry, turning His back on man, changing His mind... But there is only way that I know of to explain this phenomenon.
ANY three...
 
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