Hell is not permanent.

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter responded:

To what I wrote:

According to Strongs which I am sure you approve :


1) eternal, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

[size=+1][Note, immediately above,[size=+1]^[/size] aionios is a synonym for aidios.][/size]​

Romans 1:20...
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Jude 6...And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So we see here two perfectly good instances of the actual word for eternity being used. Seems Paul and Jude had no trouble using it. Doesn't it strike you odd that it is not used elsewhere. Seems God's plan for the "ages" is being undermined.[/SIZE]

What we see here is deliberate misrepresentation of sources. Both Strong's and Thayer's show aionios to be a synonym for aidios. You do know what synonym means , don't you? So what is your point?

No it does not strike me as odd that the N.T. authors chose aionios to express the eternal duration of God's punishment, partcularly in view of how Jesus desribed it in the 28 passages I quoted several times and not one universalist has dared to reply.

Strong's G5801
Synonyms
See Definition for aidios [G126]
See Definition for aionios [G166]

126-covers the complete philosophical idea--without beginning
and without end? Also either without beginning or without
end? As respects to the past it is applied to what has
existed time out of mind
166-gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity.​

 

[Der Alte]

More than a 1000 years before Jerome the classical Greek writers, e.g. Aristotle, Plato, etc. used aion, and its cognates to mean eternal, unending, forever, etc. I posted the sources.

[SIZE=-1]Of course they did....they were greek, it's a greek word. It is the latin words Jerome used to translate aion that are the problem.[/SIZE]

This reply does not make any sense. Greek classical writers, including Aristotle, and Plato, and many others, used aion and aionios to mean forever, eternal, unending, etc. hundreds of years before Jerome. So what Jerome did or did not write in the 5th century AD is irrelevant.

The Greek aion/aionios was correctly translated eternal, forever, unending, in the N.T. based on the classical Greek usage before Jerome. This is supported by ALL early church fathers in the 1st and 2d centuries. Posted, ignored. JEROME IS IRRELEVANT!

[SIZE=-1]"Concerning Aristotle's use of the word in his famous sentence, "Life, an aión continuous and eternal," it is enough to say that if aión intrinsically meant endless, Aristotle never would have sought to strengthen the meaning by adding "continuous" and "eternal," any more than one would say, God has an eternity, continuous and endless. He has a life, an existence, an aión endless, just as man's aión on earth is limited; just as Idumea's smoke in the Old Testament is aiónios. Nor, had Aristotle considered aión to mean eternity, would he have said in this very passage: "the time of the life of each individual has been called his aión." J. W. Hanson[/size]

This might meaningful if Aristotle only ever used the word aionios, in this sense, one time. And it ignores the fact that Arisotle, as with many writers, ancient and modern, used figures of speech. One common figure of speech is saying the same thing in a slightly different way for emphasis. Now all you have to do is prove, not merely assert, that Aristotle was not using a figure of speech.

[SIZE=-1]I know how you hate the websites where various and sundry writers are posted. These websites are not just one mans writings, they are composed of many knowledgable people and what they have studied and found to be true. [/SIZE]

No! These websites are some universalist guy claiming to quote some other guy, who is claiming to quote, some other guy, who is claiming to quote a primary source. Unless you personally check the primary source you don't even know if it exists or not.

The only value such a website has is to point you to the primary source.

[SIZE=-1]Most of them believed in an eternal hell at one time and studied to show themselves approved and began to see a difference in what the greek said and what was translated in our bibles. I am going to leave a short biography on J. W. Hanson.[/SIZE]

Your web site guy claims that most of them were not originally universalists. And he claims that they said whatever he posted at his website.

Let me say this once again. I don't know of a doctor or a lawyer, or any other professional, in the world who earned his/her degree by reading 2d-3d-4th hand out-ofcontext quotes on a website. They earn their degrees by studying the primary sources, in their field, and being tested by competent professors, in the field.

Once they go into practice they are licensed by experts in the field, and they are held accountable by other competent professionals in the field.

You website guy did/does none of these things.

[SIZE=-1]HANSON, John Wesley, author, born in Boston, Massachusetts, 12 May, 1823. After attending the Lowell high school, he entered a counting-room in that city, where he remained seven years, still continuing his studies, he was ordained to the ministry of the Universalist church in Wentworth, New Hampshire, in 1845, held pastorates in Danvers, Massachusetts, in 1846-'8, and Gardiner, Maine, in 1850-'4, and in 1848 edited the "Massachusetts Era," the first Republican paper in Lowell. He edited the "Gospel Banner" in Augusta, Maine, in 1854-'60, and was pastor in Haverhill, Massachusetts, till 1865, serving also in 1863-'4 as chaplain of the 6th Massachusetts regiment and army correspondent of the Boston "Journal" and the New York "Tribune." He was pastor in Dubuque, Iowa, in 1866-'9, and then had charge of the "New Covenant " in Chicago, Illinois, till 1884. Buchtel college, Ohio, gave him the degree of D. D. in 1876. He has published histories of Danvers, Massachusetts (Danvers, 1847), Norridgewock, Maine (Norridgewock, 1849), and Gardiner, Maine (Gardiner, 1852); "Bible Threatenings Explained " (Chicago, 1847);"Witnesses to the Truth," a collection of quotations from the poets (Boston, 1850; enlarged as "Cloud of Witnesses," 1883);" Aion-Aionios" (Chicago, 1876); " Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation" (1877); " Twelve Sermons on the Lord's Prayer" (1883); " The New Covenant," a translation of the New Testament" (2 vols., 1883-'5); and "Voices of the Faith " (1884).--His wife, Eliza Rice (HOLBROOK), born in Norridgewock, Maine, 11 April, 1825; died in Blue Island, Illinois, 16 September, 1865, married Dr. Hanson on 30 May, 1846. She published "Women Workers," a popular book.

Edited Appletons Encyclopedia, Copyright © 2001 VirtualologyTM
[/SIZE]

You blew off several renowned, accredited, Greek language resources,that are recognized and used by colleges and universities around the world as "copying from each other," and just "my doctrine." Then you quote one guy, a Universalist, who has been dead more than 100 years. Your one dead guy is supposed to know more, be more authoritative, than all the resources I quoted?

[SIZE=-1]Here is a copy of his paper
[/SIZE]

Sorry not interested. I have read it all before. I have addressed many of his arguments right here in this thread. You have ignored everything I posted, you think I am going to read this stuff?

 

[Der Alte]

The Encyclical Epistle Of The Church At Smyrna Concerning The Martyrdom Of The Holy Polycarp Disciple of John the apostle, 65-100-155 AD

And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched,

But Polycarp said, “Thou threatenest me with fire which burneth for an hour, and after a little is extinguished, but art ignorant of the fire of the coming judgment and of eternal punishment, reserved for the ungodly.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-13.htm#P911_166347

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians Disciple of John the Apostle. 30-107 AD

Do not err, my brethren. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavor to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, “being waxen fat,” and “become gross,” sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-16.htm#P1093_206499

The Epistle Of Barnabas 100 AD

Chapter 20 The Way Of Darkness

But the way of darkness is crooked, and full of cursing; for it is the way of eternal death with punishment, in which way are the things that destroy the soul, viz., idolatry, over-confidence, the arrogance of power, hypocrisy, double-heartedness, adultery, murder, rapine, haughtiness, transgression, deceit, malice, self-sufficiency, poisoning, magic, avarice, want of the fear of God.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm#P3130_520749

The First Apology Of Justin 110-165 AD
Chapter 1

[...]we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies 297 united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.

Chapter 12
Christians Live As Under God’s Eye

we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire;

we believe (or rather, indeed, are persuaded) that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merit of his deed, and will render account according to the power he has received from God,

Chapter 18
Proof Of Immortality And The Resurrection

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a god send to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true.

“Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass.

Chapter 22 And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

Chapter 28
God’s Care For Men

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.

Chapter 45
And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire.

Chapter 52
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

The Second Apology Of Justin Martyr For The Christians

For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbor, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire, but that the virtuous and those who lived like Christ shall dwell with God in a state that is free from suffering, — we mean, those who have become Christians),

But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavored to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.

But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. and this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753

Justin Dialogue with Trypho
Chapter 9
Eternal Punishment Not A Mere Threat

And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words and bugbears, and that we wish men to live virtuously through fear, and not because such a life is good and pleasant; I will briefly reply to this, that if this be not so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men, and neither virtue nor vice is anything, and, as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments

Chapter 45
at the second coming of the Christ Himself, those who believe in Him and live acceptably, — and be no more: when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality.”

Chapter 117
But these filthy garments, which have been put by you on all who have become Christians by the name of Jesus, God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire.

Chapter 130
But we will not receive it of all your nation; since we know from Isaiah that the members of those who have transgressed shall be consumed by the worm and unquenchable fire, remaining immortal; so that they become a spectacle to all flesh.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 4, Disciple of Polycarp a disciple of John, 120-202 AD

Chapter 27 The Future Judgment By Christ. Communion With And Separation From The Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment Of Unbelievers.

Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending.

God showed Himself not well pleased in many instances towards those who sinned, so also in the latter, “many are called, but few are chosen.” As then the unrighteous, the idolaters, and fornicators perished, so also is it now: for both the Lord declares, that such persons are sent into eternal fire; and the apostle says, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, not effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Chapter 28
1. Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God [displayed] when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly: for the fire is eternal, and the wrath of God which shall be revealed from heaven from the face of our Lord (as David
also says, “But the face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth”), entails a heavier punishment on those who incur it, — the elders pointed out that those men are devoid of sense, who, [arguing] from what happened to those who formerly did not obey God, do endeavor to bring in another Father, setting over against [these punishments] what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples.

Chapter 28
when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,” these shall be damned for ever;

Chapter 39
For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

Chapter 52 He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-62.htm#P7979_2198226

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book 5
The breath, then, is temporal, but the Spirit eternal.

Let those persons, therefore, who blaspheme the Creator, either by openly expressed words, such as the disciples of Marcion, or by a perversion of the sense [of Scripture], as those of Valentinus and all the Gnostics falsely so called, be recognized as agents of Satan by all those who worship God; through whose agency Satan now, and not before, has been seen to speak against God, even Him who has prepared eternal fire for every kind of apostasy.

Chapter 26 Truly has Justin remarked: That before the Lord’s appearance Satan never dared to blaspheme God, inasmuch as he did not yet know his own sentence, because it was contained in parables and allegories; but that after the Lord’s appearance, when he had clearly ascertained from the words of Christ and His apostles that eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.

Chapter 27 The Future Judgment By Christ. Communion With And Separation From The Divine Being. The Eternal Punishment Of Unbelievers

And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-63.htm#P8900_2545577​

 

[katallasso]

Der Alter,

You just don't seem to be getting my point. I will try again. Notice the paragraph in green.


(The following information is taken from a book by S. E. Jones)
"As for the Latin Vulgate, over all, Jerome did an excellent job. His translation became a classic that has been used ever since. However, we must confine our remarks here to the subject of "eternal" and "everlasting," because it is through the Latin Vulgate (The Roman Catholic Bible) that we inherited these words (eternal and everlasting) in the English Bible!
"When Jerome came to the Greek word aeonian (age-lasting), he had two Latin words to choose from in its translation: seculum and aeternum. Both of these words had already been used in the Old Latin version that he was correcting. And, in fact, these words were quite close in meaning to the Greek aeonian. So Jerome used both words interchangeably.
There was just one problem. The Latin words had a double meaning, according to a footnote which was found in Augustine's "City of God."
The words "eternal" and "eternity" from Latin eternus, aeternitas, are related to aevum, which mans BOTH "unending time" and "a period of time;" for the second meaning, the commoner (sic) word is aetas

"Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (olam va ad, "the age and beyond)."
"Jerome translated this phrase to read in Latin: "in aeternum et ultra," that is, "into eternity and beyond." It is obvious that Jerome knew that aeternum referred to a limited period of time, an age, rather than "eternity" as we know it today, for there is nothing beyond eternity.
"At any rate, Jerome used both seculum and aeternus in the Latin Vulgate. Twelve hundred years later, the King James translators simply followed the Vulgate in their rendering of these words. Whenever the Vulgate said aeternus, the KJV said "eternal;" whenever the Vulgate said seculum, the KJV reads "world." This is why Matthew 13:39,40 reads "the end of the WORLD" instead of "the end of the age." Our word "secular" means "pertaining to this world-order, or this age."
"It is not that Jerome's translation was incorrect. His words were technically alright. The problem was that they apparently had a double meaning, and that Augustine chose the wrong meaning to champion eternal torment. Latin scholars thus point out his bias. Furthermore, Augustine was severely handicapped (as a translator) because he was virtually ignorant of the Greek language.


Here is what I am trying to get across, your favorite scholars are perpetuating this train of thought, mine are not. Now you can continue to copy and paste your favorite records of what they are touting but I am not interested, I have gone on from there and taken another course which to me is more plausible. So, please don't waste your time on it with me any longer, it means nothing to me. I am trying to give another view of this subject, which is what I believe these discussions are about.

No! These websites are some universalist guy claiming to quote some other guy, who is claiming to quote, some other guy, who is claiming to quote a primary source. Unless you personally check the primary source you don't even know if it exists or not.

It is obvious to me that you have not taken much time to look over these sites as they are full of other peoples writings......not just quotes, as per the Hanson article.

Der Alter said:

I might as well be talking to a rock

Actually you know diddly squat about the subject

Your source is a website maintained by some guy the academic community never heard of, none of his stuff has been reviewed by anybody. You don't know, nor does anybody else, if anything he says is true or not. You might as well quote Goldilocks and the 3 bears, or the Arabian Nights. Do you really know the owners of the sites?

Now if you were to go to a library, that is a big building with books,

Now, from this point on if you will ignore me I will be eternally [aiodios] grateful as I do not wish to correspond with someone as rude as you.

 

[gort]

You will find the age after Rev. 20:15 described in Rev. chap. 21.

And in this age, there is mention of an ending to the LOF ......where?

 

[Havahope]

And in this age, there is mention of an ending to the LOF ......where?

Since the "LOF", as well as the "new heaven" and the "new earth, the holy city - the new Jerusalem which was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", were all symbolic, and not literal, there would be no need to mention an ending to it.

 

[timlamb]

Havahope, if you play the symbolisum card, everything goes up to the imagination, you discredit Revelation, end of discussion. I just deleted three paragraphs, because I just remembered I was staying out of this.
daneel, you have made your point well, however, there is no truth for those who choose not to believe.
this whole discussion has become a lesson in futility.
timlamb

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Der Alter,

You just don't seem to be getting my point. I will try again. Notice the paragraph in green.

(The following information is taken from a book by S. E. Jones)
"As for the Latin Vulgate, over all, Jerome did an excellent job. His translation became a classic that has been used ever since. However, we must confine our remarks here to the subject of "eternal" and "everlasting," because it is through the Latin Vulgate (The Roman Catholic Bible) that we inherited these words (eternal and everlasting) in the English Bible![...][/SIZE]

You don't seem to be getting my point. You, quoting from your pet universalist website, which is allegedly quoting, S.E. Jones, who is allegedly quoting Jerome. A third hand "quote," you don't have a clue how the KJV actually compares to the Vulgate. But hey as long as your dood at hellbusted or tentburners posted it then it must be true. Right?

And lets just ignore all the primary sources I quoted such as Polycarp and Ignatius, who were disciples of John the apostle, and Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp.

[SIZE=-1]Here is what I am trying to get across, your favorite scholars are perpetuating this train of thought, mine are not.[/SIZE]

Here is what I am trying to get across to you I have NOT been quoting my "favorite scholars." I have been quoting "primary sources," and you don't even know the meaning of the term. Only you have been quoting your pet scholars like Hanson, etc., NOT one primary or original source.

[SIZE=-1]Now you can continue to copy and paste your favorite records of what they are touting but I am not interested, I have gone on from there and taken another course which to me is more plausible. So, please don't waste your time on it with me any longer, it means nothing to me. I am trying to give another view of this subject, which is what I believe these discussions are about.[/SIZE]

Oh, you are laboring under the grossly false impression that this traditional Christian forum exists for you to cram your false knee jerk views down everyone's throat without opposition, or being held accountable and responsible. Somebody needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Don't set yourself up so high, it ain't about you. I learned a long time ago that the members of false religions who come here with their handful of out-of-context proof texts and their canned arguments from their pet anti- websites, are not going to listen anything that contradicts them, as you have just proved.

My only purpose is to keep on exposing the misrepresentations, misquotes, fallacious arguments, etc. hoping that someone who may be considering joining or leaving such a false religion, they can see the truth. So you just keep on ignoring me and I will keep on showing the inconsistencies, contradictions, etc. of your arguments.

[SIZE=-1]It is obvious to me that you have not taken much time to look over these sites as they are full of other peoples writings......not just quotes, as per the Hanson article.[/SIZE]

So you are saying that Hanson, who has been dead for over 100 years, or S. E. Jones personally posted their writings on your pet universalist website?

[SIZE=-1]Now, from this point on if you will ignore me I will be eternally [aiodios] grateful as I do not wish to correspond with someone as rude as you.[/SIZE]

In your dreams. You keep on copy/pasting your 2d-3d-4th hand junk from hellbusted, and I will keep on showing how it ignores and contradicts, real historical scholarship and the earliest history of the church.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]Since the "LOF", as well as the "new heaven" and the "new earth, the holy city - the new Jerusalem which was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", were all symbolic, and not literal, there would be no need to mention an ending to it.[/SIZE]

Ah, yes. The old cop-out answer of every false religion there ever was. SPAM-FIG. Anything, in scripture, that contradicts their false religion, is either Symbolic, Poetic, Allegorical, Metaphorical, or Figurative, not literal. And the only things in scripture that are not SPAM-FIG, you guessed it, supports the false religion.

 

[Im_A]

Hell is not permanent.

Please read the following verses of Bible
carefully.

1. Their worm does not die and the fire is not
quenched (Mk 9:44, 46, 48).

2. These shall be punished with everlasting
destruction from he presence of the Lord and from the
glory of His power (2 Thes 1:9).

3. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and
ever (Rev. 14:11).

From the above verses, it is crystal clear that the
hell is permanent.

the gates of hell prevail afterall. humanity's will is more powerful than God's Will. great Gospel your giving us!

i can prooftext verses that our loving God doesn't mind rape. what is next with prooftext doctrine? this shows the very problem with sola scripture.

how do you feel right in your faith to dictate theology based on the book of Revelations? a book written during a time of persecution and tribulation?

plus we debate over the proper way of interpretating the word aions, where everlasting comes from. and i don't know why people don't translate the scriptures according to the will of God(1 Timothy 2:4-4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.) instead Christians are interpretating the scriptures from their own perception of them being saved. nothing but a selfish faith. Sheol is not a place of eternal punishment, cause how can it be when even the saints go there. and Gehenna? a place you can visit today if you would be so inclined, and make theology from a literal place...interesting. Hades? mythology sucked into Christianity, but yet Christians view all other myths wrong? how dare the hypocrites!

everything is given to Christ. (“The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35) salvation goes to as many as the Father has given to the Son (“Thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.” John 17:2.)Christ is certain to save all that the Father has given Him (“All that the Father
giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37) “And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” I John 2:2." and how can a just God punish infinetely for finite crimes? if sin can be forgiven at any point, it is finite and if we want to go on claiming God is just while believeing in eternal torment, i pray that their mouths are silenced, cause our God is being bad mouthed. “And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.” Col. 1:20" and if one person burns in hell then "“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied.” Isa. 53:11" is just a false scripture. the mythology of hades has ruined modern Christianity cause of the some of the Church Father's reasoning to implicate a disgusting myth. but that happens when humanity gets ahold on the Truth. and it's rather ironic how even Eastern Orthodoxy, doesn't teach this penal substitutionary atonment message of eternal torment. it goes to show what progress in this area of theology can actually produce.

that's enough for now and the next thread is going to be quote of Church Fathers.

 

[Im_A]

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10

Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind

So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" --Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)

The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. --Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458

When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. --Origen

All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria​

 

[katallasso]

tattedsaint,

Wanted to thank for such and inspiring and well thought out post.

I noticed in your post of early christian universalist that they were all within the first 500 years which says alot being that they were so close to the original apostles teachings.

In that list were some very prestigious men.

St. Athanasius, the Archbishop of Alexandria

St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian

Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and bishop of Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (publ. Baker Book, 1969),

McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature has this to say about the next church leader of the early church:
"Theodore, who is called the crown and climax of the school of Antioch and whose writings were textbooks in the school of Eastern Syria, was a prominent and influential Universalist

Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466), was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius's work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school."

Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)

Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church


Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna

As we can well see this is an impressive list of theologians. May I add another?

Titus, bishop of Bostra writes: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

How can these men be ignored?

 

[gort]

Since the "LOF", as well as the "new heaven" and the "new earth, the holy city - the new Jerusalem which was prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", were all symbolic, and not literal, there would be no need to mention an ending to it.

Of course there is need to mention it. Then it would be fact. If someone is to proffer and end to the LOF, the eternal torment of the rejection of Gods offer of Grace, then there is the need to show from Scripture that this will happen.

The 'new Jerusalem' is literal, the 'as a bride adorned.." is symbolic, figurative.

 

[katallasso]

daneel,

Is the lake of fire a literal burning fire in your opinion?

 

[gort]

Havahope, if you play the symbolisum card, everything goes up to the imagination, you discredit Revelation, end of discussion. I just deleted three paragraphs, because I just remembered I was staying out of this.
daneel, you have made your point well, however, there is no truth for those who choose not to believe.
this whole discussion has become a lesson in futility.
timlamb

Ja, I can't recall how many times I ask the same question. Never gets properly answered by the universalist, simply because it's not there.

...but I'm usually a sucker for futility lesson, and I isn't the only one....

<><

 

[gort]

daneel,

Is the lake of fire a literal burning fire in your opinion?

nobody knows.

and everybody has an opinion about it.

lots of people have written about it.

but nobody knows for sure.



<><

 

[katallasso]

"Our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrew2:29).

Throughout the Bible, the fire of God is shown to be one that purifies and consumes impurities --- not one which punishes endlessly.

For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver. (Psalms 66;10)

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. (Malachi 3:2)

Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder. (Zephaniah 3:8-9) This is very interesting, could be the lake of fire.

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.


Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
Deu 4:33 Did [ever] people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

Deu 5:24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Deu 5:25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.

Deu 5:26 For who [is there of] all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we [have], and lived?


Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them [was written] according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

Our God is a consuming fire, could it be that with these scriptures He is endeavoring to show us His nature, that His love is all consuming, and when He says, "He was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" this is exactly what He is doing?

We only know love from a finite point of view, our God is infinite we do not know the extent of His love. I just don't see the plan of an all loving Creator having a spot in all eternity torturing those who for some reason He is not able to redeem, seems unlikely to me.

But I can see finite men with their bent toward revenge and preconcieved notions of hellfire (Manechean doctrine of St. Augustine) thinking this way.

Could it be that our God Himself is the Lake of Fire?

And why, considering this is The Revelation, should this lake be any more literal than say:
the Beast
the harlot of Babylon
the Woman with Child
the 3 unclean spirits like frogs
the beast out of the earth
the beast out of the sea
the dragon

and so on and so on?

 

[gort]

Katallaso quotes:

"Our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrew2:29).

Throughout the Bible, the fire of God is shown to be one that purifies and consumes impurities --- not one which punishes endlessly.

Agreed. God is a consuming fire. No doubt about it.....

For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver. (Psalms 66;10)

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. (Malachi 3:2)

Agreed. Trials and tribulation, a refining fire. No doubt about it......

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Still the refiners fire.

Our God is a consuming fire, could it be that with these scriptures He is endeavoring to show us His nature, that His love is all consuming, and when He says, "He was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself" this is exactly what He is doing?

Agreed. However, Justice is part of His nature also. How more 'graphic' could God get when His beloved Son was on the Cross?

By this act alone, we see His Justice, but most of all, His great Mercy.

We only know love from a finite point of view, our God is infinite we do not know the extent of His love. I just don't see the plan of an all loving Creator having a spot in all eternity torturing those who for some reason He is not able to redeem, seems unlikely to me.

See above. I see a Great Love.

1. WHo says He is not able to redeem? You? Me?

But I can see finite men with their bent toward revenge and preconcieved notions of hellfire (Manechean doctrine of St. Augustine) thinking this way.

2. Perhaps it is you that has preconeived notions of people who desire revenge and hellfire. If a person has the Holy Spirit, does he not wish that all be saved, as God does? that all come to repentence?

If you do run across someone who has a discomforting view of relishing those who will go to the LOF, please remind them that God called them to repentence out of His great Mercy....

However, I put my trust in God for the lost. I also know that God desires all to come to repentence.

Could it be that our God Himself is the Lake of Fire?

Nope. Read Revelation carefully.

It is the finality of God Judgement upon sinful man, separated from God and His Light forever. All enemies are put under the feet of Christ Jesus, all are in subjection to His judgement, and He hands all things over to the Father. The work is completed.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.

And why, considering this is The Revelation, should this lake be any more literal than say:
the Beast
the harlot of Babylon
the Woman with Child
the 3 unclean spirits like frogs
the beast out of the earth
the beast out of the sea
the dragon

and so on and so on?

Ok. It you want to call the LOF figurative or symbolism, then show me when it ends?

 

[katallasso]

Agreed. God is a consuming fire. No doubt about it.....




Agreed. Trials and tribulation, a refining fire. No doubt about it......



Still the refiners fire.





Agreed. However, Justice is part of His nature also. How more 'graphic' could God get when His beloved Son was on the Cross?

By this act alone, we see His Justice, but most of all, His great Mercy.




See above. I see a Great Love.

1. WHo says He is not able to redeem? You? Me?

Certainly not me.....but all those that believe in an eternal hell do.


2. Perhaps it is you that has preconeived notions of people who desire revenge and hellfire. If a person has the Holy Spirit, does he not wish that all be saved, as God does? that all come to repentence?

If you do run across someone who has a discomforting view of relishing those who will go to the LOF, please remind them that God called them to repentence out of His great Mercy....

However, I put my trust in God for the lost. I also know that God desires all to come to repentence.


Nope. Read Revelation carefully.

It is the finality of God Judgement upon sinful man, separated from God and His Light forever. All enemies are put under the feet of Christ Jesus, all are in subjection to His judgement, and He hands all things over to the Father. The work is completed.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.




Ok. It you want to call the LOF figurative or symbolism, then show me when it ends?

Where does it show all these coming to an end?

the Beast
the harlot of Babylon
the Woman with Child
the 3 unclean spirits like frogs
the beast out of the earth
the beast out of the sea
the dragon

and so on and so on?

But this is a good indication when the LOF ends.

Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations,
to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them- all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger.Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder. (Zephaniah 3:8-9)

Phillippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As FineLinen so aptly put it.
In order that in the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Kampto= bow=

Used of worshippers.

To bow one's self.

Confess= Exomologeo=

Confess/ profess.

A. To acknowledge openly and joyfully.

B. To celebrate/ to give praise to.

Exomologeo Rooted In Homologeo

Homologeo=

To confess/ declare.

A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.

B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.

C. To praise and celebrate.

 

[Children of Light]

I am not a universalist. I certainly dont consider myself to be a cultist. And when I received back a pm from someone claiming that I am a cultist, I realized that I have called other people who dont agree with me, liberals, cultist, or new agers and fit them all into a box, it is quite eye opening and very revealing and transforming for me to finally receive the same treatment from someone else. I never thought I was a liberal. I always considered myself to be very conservative, however I have difficulty in aligning eternal torment with Jesus, and who He is portrayed in scripture.