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Hell is a 404

marineimaging

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Something came to mind, that being that many of the references here are to hell as a punishment. I heard a parent tell his child to come away from the fishing rods as they weren't looking for rods and the child said "no" and continued playing with one. The parent said, "Well, suit yourself. Stay here and I will leave. You can make up your mind if you want to play alone or come see what I have in mind for you." The child, faced with that decision, happily bolted and caught up with the parent. I won't argue it one way or another but it is manifested through scripture hell is a result of not believing. It is not a punishment. The cause of punishment is to drive one toward being better the next time around. Making a better decision when faced with a repeat of the same behavior or opportunity. Well, there is no next time when the idea of hell comes into play so there is no way to be better next time. We are warned away from hell as a final resting place for the soul and as I said before, it is evident to me that hell is a state of being without God and that comes thorugh our choices. It is not Gods desire that we be commended to hell for not believing, it is the natural result of not believing that we will find ourselves there.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Actually, God doesn't "send" anyone to hell. Also, no action is going to "send you to hell in a hand-basket" and further, nobody is going to do something naughty that you can say "oh, your going to go to hell for that".

The truth of the matter is that we are born into sin, none of us live a life without it. Even from a young age, we know not to pull our sisters hair, lie to mommy about who dumped the dogs dish of water, take a cookie when we were told not too.... the list goes on.

Because of this, we are sinners and our destination is hell. We are born with one and only one future eternal home... hell.

God saved us from this. He did not send us there.

I examined every statement Jesus made in the NT about why He was here and what His mission was. Saving us from our sins and from death were mentioned (IIRC), but He never said He came to save us from Hell.

Anyway, there is a problem with the concept of a "future eternal home." The ancient concept of death was that when you're dead, you're really dead. Now our culture has long absorbed the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul. Given that, folks believe that your soul zips off to Heaven or Hell the moment you "die." Be aware that Immortality of the Soul comes to us from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Get free of that, and you have no choice but the ancient yup yer dead. If so, you need God to be anything else.
 
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xlr8ing

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I examined every statement Jesus made in the NT about why He was here and what His mission was. Saving us from our sins and from death were mentioned (IIRC), but He never said He came to save us from Hell.

Anyway, there is a problem with the concept of a "future eternal home." The ancient concept of death was that when you're dead, you're really dead. Now our culture has long absorbed the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul. Given that, folks believe that your soul zips off to Heaven or Hell the moment you "die." Be aware that Immortality of the Soul comes to us from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Get free of that, and you have no choice but the ancient yup yer dead. If so, you need God to be anything else.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". I know that John 3:16 gets thrown around a lot, but how can you have issue with this verse in relation to a future eternal home?
 
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SkyWriting

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Where in all of the universe do you go that God is not? King David said "If I make my bed in hell, thou are there."
The idea of a place called "hell" where God is not is a fallacious piece of human reasoning not consistent with Scripture.
There are a few people who live without God in their life.
But I wonder if King David was referring to the reality
of Hell rather than God keeping him company, ie playing
rounds of pinochle, in the lake of fire.
 
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Lazarus Short

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". I know that John 3:16 gets thrown around a lot, but how can you have issue with this verse in relation to a future eternal home?

That's a fair question, and I have no problem with John 3:16, but one verse almost never settles a matter. Let me add this: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." I Timothy 4:10. It would seem, if both verses are true, and they are, that all men will come to believe in Him, be saved, and have everlasting life. As I posted elsewhere, the teaching of the salvation of all (and of the non-existence of Hell) harmonizes with the whole counsel of God vastly better than the damnation of the wicked to Hell.
 
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Lazarus Short

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It is preposterous to believe, teach, or state that 1/ there is no place for punishment, after death, that we call hell and 2/ that this place is anything but for eternity.

You may be able to twist and mistranslated, take out of context, the scripture given to us by our creator, and fabricate the yarn you have spun.

However, this type of art is done best by the deceptive master .... Satan, the best deceiver of all and best spin doctor of the word of God in all the universe.

The stating of such sacrilege as there being no eternal punishment in a place we call hell is as evil as that first statement that sent Eve on to the fall "Ye shall not surely die"
Genesis 3:4King James Version (KJV)

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You have just about called me a disciple of Satan. Do you realize how un-Christian that is? Since you post your conclusion FIRST, it only means that an eternal Hell may be the core of your Belief System, when it should be Jesus. Do you realize that millions of unbelievers out there are unbelieving because they "get" the disconnect between a God who loves them (so they are told), and an eternal Hell they will be sent to if they don't believe? These are intelligent, honest people, and one can hardly blame them. Hell makes the Gospel (Good News) Bad News for most of humanity. Do you suppose that Christianity spread to the far ends of the known world in just the first century by preaching Hell? No, quite the opposite!

No, I twisted nothing. I merely listed a set of Scriptures which did not quite go your way. I mistranslated nothing - again just listed Scriptures, and drew a valid conclusion from them. I took nothing out of context, for I stress keeping things in context, like the one point which covers Exodus thru Deuteronomy. I did not "spin a yarn" - I made a methodical, careful study of the Scriptures with a view to discern if they supported the existence of Hell, or not. I know that for many Christians, Hell is axiomatic, but it is not.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I wonder why so many native Greek speaking early church fathers got it all wrong about hell?
“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.
Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)
From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)
But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)
From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)
From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.
From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)
From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)
From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)
The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)
From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)
Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)
If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. —
On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)
From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)
From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)
Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)
From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fireThe same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)
From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)
The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)

I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles. On the other hand, Paul did write this, in II Thessalonians, chapter 2: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Could the strong delusion and lie be the Hell theology? Given what you have posted, yes, I think it could be.
 
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Light of the East

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There are a few people who live without God in their life.
But I wonder if King David was referring to the reality
of Hell rather than God keeping him company, ie playing
rounds of pinochle, in the lake of fire.

No one lives without God in their life. Without Him, you wouldn't take the next breath or have the next heartbeat. They may ignore, insult, and turn from Him all they want, but He is right there, closer than their own skin.
 
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Light of the East

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I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles. On the other hand, Paul did write this, in II Thessalonians, chapter 2: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Could the strong delusion and lie be the Hell theology? Given what you have posted, yes, I think it could be.

Here's what I was wondering after I read all those quotes. Do they read that way in the original Greek of the Early Fathers, or are we reading some sort of skewed Greek to Latin translation. We know that the Latin Church Fathers were notoriously bad at translating the Greek, which makes me ask this question.

Maybe they read what Chrysostom wrote and translated it as "hell" when Chrysostom used the word for grave in his speech.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Here's what I was wondering after I read all those quotes. Do they read that way in the original Greek of the Early Fathers, or are we reading some sort of skewed Greek to Latin translation. We know that the Latin Church Fathers were notoriously bad at translating the Greek, which makes me ask this question.

Maybe they read what Chrysostom wrote and translated it as "hell" when Chrysostom used the word for grave in his speech.

Yes, just as I charge the KJV translators! Isn't it odd that our esteemed member, who prides himself on his Greek scholarship, offers us the early Church Fathers in only the English translation? At the same time, he omits the most important early Church Fathers, the writers of the New Testament. Some of us do see through that trickery.
 
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SkyWriting

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No one lives without God in their life. Without Him, you wouldn't take the next breath or have the next heartbeat. They may ignore, insult, and turn from Him all they want, but He is right there, closer than their own skin.

So He is with you in Hell as well. Doesn't sound
too bad then in your version. Knowing God is there
I have a pretty high pain tolerance.
 
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JacksBratt

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I examined every statement Jesus made in the NT about why He was here and what His mission was. Saving us from our sins and from death were mentioned (IIRC), but He never said He came to save us from Hell.

Anyway, there is a problem with the concept of a "future eternal home." The ancient concept of death was that when you're dead, you're really dead. Now our culture has long absorbed the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul. Given that, folks believe that your soul zips off to Heaven or Hell the moment you "die." Be aware that Immortality of the Soul comes to us from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Get free of that, and you have no choice but the ancient yup yer dead. If so, you need God to be anything else.
So, Christ taught that He was saving us 1/ from our sins and 2/ From death.

Since I will die some day as everyone on earth will, how is Christ saving us from "death" if it is not a second death?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the bible is God breathed and a solid source of what God is telling us. This death that Christ is saving us from is easily seen as an eternal punishment.

It may not be the Hell of the OT, but it is what we refer to as hell.
 
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JacksBratt

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Hell is here and now for me
I feel sorry for you if you feel like your life is hell. My life is no cake walk and I face difficulties every day. I would not call it hell. I would call it "life". I suffer less than others and more than others. I have faith that Christ will give me the strength to persevere day by day.
 
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Goatee

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I feel sorry for you if you feel like your life is hell. My life is no cake walk and I face difficulties every day. I would not call it hell. I would call it "life". I suffer less than others and more than others. I have faith that Christ will give me the strength to persevere day by day.

Dont feel sorry for me..............ta
 
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JacksBratt

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You have just about called me a disciple of Satan. Do you realize how un-Christian that is? Since you post your conclusion FIRST, it only means that an eternal Hell may be the core of your Belief System, when it should be Jesus. Do you realize that millions of unbelievers out there are unbelieving because they "get" the disconnect between a God who loves them (so they are told), and an eternal Hell they will be sent to if they don't believe? These are intelligent, honest people, and one can hardly blame them. Hell makes the Gospel (Good News) Bad News for most of humanity. Do you suppose that Christianity spread to the far ends of the known world in just the first century by preaching Hell? No, quite the opposite!

No, I twisted nothing. I merely listed a set of Scriptures which did not quite go your way. I mistranslated nothing - again just listed Scriptures, and drew a valid conclusion from them. I took nothing out of context, for I stress keeping things in context, like the one point which covers Exodus thru Deuteronomy. I did not "spin a yarn" - I made a methodical, careful study of the Scriptures with a view to discern if they supported the existence of Hell, or not. I know that for many Christians, Hell is axiomatic, but it is not.
I have done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out that what you are proposing is contrary to the very core of the word of God.

You have, yourself, openly criticized the KJV of the Bible. The KJV, which is the foundational version of the word of God, used by solid God fearing Christians, the world over.

If you are feeling like I am calling you a disciple of Satan, that's not me doing that.

As for your methodical, careful study of scripture. If it concludes that their is not a consequence, for rejecting Christ, after death, then you have been deceived. This is due to the fact that this would totally negate the need for Christ's death and resurrection.

Do you understand that. The whole purpose of the OT is preparation for the coming messiah. If there is no need for salvation, no hell, no eternal punishment, then there is no need for Christ.

That is a lie of Satan.
 
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Der Alte

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I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Let's just ignore the words of Jesus because "Paul never used the word Hell!"
.....Paul did say that none of these could inherit the kingdom of God;
the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, flesh and blood, envious, murders, drunkards, revellers, whoremongers, unclean persons, covetous men and idolaters.

On the other hand, Paul did write this, in II Thessalonians, chapter 2: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Could the strong delusion and lie be the Hell theology? Given what you have posted, yes, I think it could be.
Your suppositions about what is or is not a delusion have zero merit! I could use the same verse to accuse UR or CI of delusion. You have posted nothing which disproves my supposition.
 
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Lazarus Short

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So, Christ taught that He was saving us 1/ from our sins and 2/ From death.

Since I will die some day as everyone on earth will, how is Christ saving us from "death" if it is not a second death?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the bible is God breathed and a solid source of what God is telling us. This death that Christ is saving us from is easily seen as an eternal punishment.


It may not be the Hell of the OT, but it is what we refer to as hell.

Jesus the Christ is saving and going to save us from death - we certainly cannot save ourselves from it. Further, I believe He will eventually save those in the Second Death when Death (the last enemy) is defeated. The Lake of Fire, of necessity, must at that time give up the dead that are in it.

I checked your verse, Matthew 25:46 on Biblehub - the word rendered as "eternal" in the KJV is a Greek word transliterated as "aionion," and meaning "age-long." Eternity sets in at the events of I Corinthians 15.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I have done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out that what you are proposing is contrary to the very core of the word of God.

You have, yourself, openly criticized the KJV of the Bible. The KJV, which is the foundational version of the word of God, used by solid God fearing Christians, the world over.

If you are feeling like I am calling you a disciple of Satan, that's not me doing that.

As for your methodical, careful study of scripture. If it concludes that their is not a consequence, for rejecting Christ, after death, then you have been deceived. This is due to the fact that this would totally negate the need for Christ's death and resurrection.

Do you understand that. The whole purpose of the OT is preparation for the coming messiah. If there is no need for salvation, no hell, no eternal punishment, then there is no need for Christ.

That is a lie of Satan.

The KJV is NOT a "foundational version" - that distinction belongs to the body of extant Old Testament and New Testament books in Hebrew and Greek, respectively. Remember, always, that you are reading an English translation of those foundational documents. Professional Bible scholars and theologians have also done their study, and some have come to conclusions such as these verses don't belong, Jesus didn't say that, etc. Where is the hue & cry for that? Maybe Hell is a more important idol than what these scholars want to remove in violation of God's command not to add or take away from, His Word. I have not added or taken away, just exposed the intrusion of pagan terms and concepts into the Holy Scriptures. Be aware that I have traced Hell back to Norse mythology.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Let's just ignore the words of Jesus because "Paul never used the word Hell!"
.....Paul did say that none of these could inherit the kingdom of God;
the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, flesh and blood, envious, murders, drunkards, revellers, whoremongers, unclean persons, covetous men and idolaters.


Your suppositions about what is or is not a delusion have zero merit! I could use the same verse to accuse UR or CI of delusion. You have posted nothing which disproves my supposition.

I contend that Jesus never used the word "hell" either, but that too will be rubber-stamped "Argument from silence." You may as well stamp the whole Bible, for except for deliberate insertion, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a place called "Hell." Limbo has already bit the dust - tell me, did babies go there until the Pope decided they didn't? There is truth and there is religion. I choose Truth.

In fact, I agree with Paul that so-and-so wicked people (in this life) will not inherit the Kingdom. He tells us in I Corinthians 3:15 that they will suffer loss, and I think one of the things they will lose will be the right to inherit in the Kingdom. They will still go on to age-long life then, or later.

You also, have posted nothing which disproves my "supposition." These things are spiritually discerned, yet you do not see them...?
 
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