Hell is a 404

[Lazarus Short]

What I said is correct no ifs, ands, or buts but you are so busy trying to think of something to say which might possibly refute what I post that you miss the point entirely.
As for the dead being really dead read Luke 16:19-31 also Isaiah 14:4-19 and Ezekiel 32:20-21 and Ezekiel 31:30-31

Do you really think I was sputtering away, desperately trying to refute you? No, I have long been settled on the matter. I know about ifs, ands and buts, but there is no getting around the FACT that the thief was dead, dead, dead, just as Jesus said that no one had ascended except for Himself. We do come along later, don't we? I will look up your references, however.

 

[Der Alte]

Do you really think I was sputtering away, desperately trying to refute you? No, I have long been settled on the matter. I know about ifs, ands and buts, but there is no getting around the FACT that the thief was dead, dead, dead, just as Jesus said that no one had ascended except for Himself. We do come along later, don't we? I will look up your references, however.

You should check the refs. before you respond. Here are some more
Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38
FYI the Greek word αναβεβηκεν/anabebeken translated "has ascended" is a perfect, active, indicative. You might want to find out what perfect, active, indicative means it is very relevant to your argument.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Be aware that I was SDA for some time, and internalized their views on the state of the dead. I have yet to see a good reason to abandon them. Now with the body decayed, and the Spirit gone back to God Who gave It, how can the dead by living? Is God telling us a reality or just how He views us as living when we are dead? It may just be a matter of point of view...

BTW, I looked at the scriptures you listed, but am not convinced they support you. I think we meet the truth very early when God told Adam and Eve that if they at the fruit, they would die.

Your thoughts?

 

[Der Alte]

Be aware that I was SDA for some time, and internalized their views on the state of the dead. I have yet to see a good reason to abandon them. Now with the body decayed, and the Spirit gone back to God Who gave It, how can the dead by living? Is God telling us a reality or just how He views us as living when we are dead? It may just be a matter of point of view...
BTW, I looked at the scriptures you listed, but am not convinced they support you. I think we meet the truth very early when God told Adam and Eve that if they at the fruit, they would die.
Your thoughts?

You answered your own question. "with the body decayed, and the Spirit gone back to God Who gave It," The body is dead the spirit is not.

 

[Saint Steven]

Question: If the dead are not really dead, what is the Resurrection for...?

The dead are dead. The dead are alive. The alive are dead. Any questions? - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Be aware that I was SDA for some time, and internalized their views on the state of the dead. I have yet to see a good reason to abandon them. Now with the body decayed, and the Spirit gone back to God Who gave It, how can the dead by living? Is God telling us a reality or just how He views us as living when we are dead? It may just be a matter of point of view...

BTW, I looked at the scriptures you listed, but am not convinced they support you. I think we meet the truth very early when God told Adam and Eve that if they at the fruit, they would die.

Your thoughts?

Not sure who you were posting to.
Yes, I have trouble agreeing with what I call the SDA belief in death as unconscious nonexistence. Especially based on Ecclesiastes which also mentions the realm of the dead. (where you are going)

I separate death into physical and spiritual death. Adam and Eve died on the day they ate thereof. But it was not physical death, obviously. Do you believe that A&E were immortal BEFORE they ate? God sent them out of the Garden to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life. (lest they live forever) Physical or spiritual?

 

[Lazarus Short]

You answered your own question. "with the body decayed, and the Spirit gone back to God Who gave It," The body is dead the spirit is not.

Not at all: What happens to the Soul at death?

 

[Saint Steven]

Not at all: What happens to the Soul at death?

That depends on your definition of soul. (see below)
From my perspective, the soul is our personal identity. (the mind) It's what makes me who I am. I sometimes ask the humorous question: "If you had a brain transplant, who would you be?" --- The mind in the brain determines identity. Those who experience NDEs report that their mind is out of their body observing what is happening to them while they are unconscious. (they can see and hear) I liken the brain to a computer hard drive. The mind is like data on the hard drive. It can be moved to another hard drive. Our new imperishable heavenly bodies. Ready for your clean-up and defrag? - lol

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Not at all: What happens to the Soul at death?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[WebersHome]

.

What happens to the Soul at death?

The life of the soul doesn't automatically end with the death of the body.

● Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul;

However, the soul isn't indestructible. Though none of us are able to destroy it; God can.

● Matt 10:28b . . rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

The Greek word translated "hell" in that passage is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is a different place than haides (hah'-dace).

The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is incarcerated in haides; so I think it's safe to assume that although his body is deceased, his soul is okay for now.
_

 

[Lazarus Short]

I see the "soul" in light of how God made Adam, creating a body out of dust and breathing into the lifeless body the Breath of Life. Adam then became a living soul. I see "non-living soul" as an oxymoron.

 

[Der Alte]

.
The life of the soul doesn't automatically end with the death of the body.
● Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul;
However, the soul isn't indestructible. Though none of us are able to destroy it; God can.
● Matt 10:28b . . rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.
The Greek word translated "hell" in that passage is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is a different place than haides (hah'-dace).
The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is incarcerated in haides; so I think it's safe to assume that although his body is deceased, his soul is okay for now.
_

Greek is now, and for 2020+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I see the "soul" in light of how God made Adam, creating a body out of dust and breathing into the lifeless body the Breath of Life. Adam then became a living soul. I see "non-living soul" as an oxymoron.

That would be the SDA apologetic on the subject.

Only one human was made the way Adam was. So why would that apply to anyone else?
Were you created out of dust?

 

[Saint Steven]

.



The life of the soul doesn't automatically end with the death of the body.

● Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul;

However, the soul isn't indestructible. Though none of us are able to destroy it; God can.

● Matt 10:28b . . rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

The Greek word translated "hell" in that passage is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is a different place than haides (hah'-dace).

The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is incarcerated in haides; so I think it's safe to assume that although his body is deceased, his soul is okay for now.
_

Interesting that it says the body and soul are in hell. What body?

 

[Der Alte]

...

Interesting that it says the body and soul are in hell. What body?

The scripture does not say the body and soul "are in hell." It says "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." What God created He, and only He, certainly can destroy. But Luke has "after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell."

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.​