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Featured Hell is a 404

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Lazarus Short, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    It is a puzzle, but it surely will be answered in time.
     
  2. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason to think it was anything other than the Lake of Fire.
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  5. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
  6. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Thank you for taking time to put down what you believe. From all of your posts I think I'm getting a reasonably good understanding of your conviction. Now, please be patient with me - here's why this view is problematic and incompatible with the Gospel:

    Millennialism in itself is a challenging subject as it has a broad range of different views. Without going into detail on each one, suffice to say, what you are describing is not consistent with any of these views. Not at least any one I'm familiar with. Furthermore, it's not in line with any of the views of the few early fathers that supported some form of Millennialism (which is different from the main views we have today). Or again, not to my knowledge.
    Put short, I would be very careful to hinge any opportunity for salvation outside the Gospel on an idea that is a modern interpretation of the end times, lest we born speculation out of speculation. This by itself makes your view problematic.
    Without going to great lengths of explaining - see for yourself what our Lord Jesus Christ say when he speaks about the Kingdom of God:
    Matthew 4:17 Luke 17:20-21 John 18:36

    In a word, while the Jews were expecting some kind of charismatic political figure to rise up and deliver them from oppression, Jesus rejects that, and instead talks about a spiritual kingdom. He claims that he himself is the Kingdom of God. That he is the way, truth and life. Even saying "I Am", declaring himself to be God. John 14:6
    So, if a person rejects Christ Jesus - by claiming he's not the way, calling him a liar, and refusing the life he yearns to give them - will such a person be saved? No. In the same verse above, Christ plainly says that no one will come to the Father except through him. That is, no one will be saved unless they're saved by God's grace through Christ Jesus.

    What then does Scriptures teach on salvation through Christ? Here's a quick summary:
    God is righteous and will surely punish evil:
    Psalms 71:19 Isaiah 5:16 Psalms 111:3 Psalms 9:8 Romans 8:33 2 Timothy 4:8 Isaiah 13:11 Proverbs 11:21 Romans 1:18 Colossians 3:6 Colossians 3:5-6 Psalms 145:20 Revelation 21:8 John 5:29 John 8:49-51 Revelation 20:15 John 3:36 Matthew 25:31-46

    God is good and has mercy through Christ:
    Faith in Christ - John 3:16-17 Ephesians 2:8 1 Peter 1:3-5 Romans 3:22-24 Romans 10:9
    Repentance before Christ - Matthew 4:17 Luke 17:3 Acts 3:19 Acts 20:21 Luke 17:3 Romans 2:4
    Baptism into Christ - John 3:5 Acts 22:16 Acts 2:38 Galatians 3:27 Ephesians 4:5 1 Peter 3:21

    Consider all of the verses above along with Romans 6:23 that says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    Here's my challenge for you. The verses above all plainly say that all evil is subject to God's wrath, but that God, in His great mercy, through His Son Jesus Christ saves us. Can you find any Scriptural evidence whatsoever - a paragraph or even a single verse - to the effect that "whoever rejects Christ Jesus as Lord will be saved"? We've gone through the Scriptures in your OP and clearly pointed out where they have been used erroneously to fit the false idea of a God that created evil, and a type of salvation that exists outside Christ. The reason I'm asking this way is because your view is sounding less and less Biblical and more and more based on human reasoning.

    Nowhere in Scriptures is the Lake of Fire compared to or taken to mean the same as a baptism into Christ Jesus.

    As for your other points:
    1. Jesus did not refute orthodoxy, but unbelief. Something that is still in effect. That is, there is no salvation outside faith. Jesus was in fact so zealous for the Law that he obeyed it perfectly in our place, making him the author and perfecter of our faith.

    2. The origin of the English word "hell" is not to be confused with the Biblical understanding of damnation. It does not come from Norse mythology. For what it's worth, "hell" means "luck" and "heldig" means "lucky" in Norwegian. I would be in error if I drew any theology from this. Neither should we confuse the origin of the word "hell" with the Biblical understanding of death as taught by our Lord Jesus Christ, the apostles and the early church - and still held today.

    3. The reason the Gospel is good news is because our Lord Jesus Christ delivers us from our sin and God's wrath on all evil, but if you look into what the Gospel means, you can also see that there is no salvation outside Christ. If Christ, the apostles and the church fathers all go to great length to proclaim a faith in Christ Jesus as Lord that saves us - this by itself goes to show that it's saving from something; namely, God's righteous judgment.

    4. Satan nor his angels will be spared. You're wrong in claiming it's speculation. See: Revelation 20:10 and again 2 Peter 2 which is pretty clear in light of all of the Scriptures shown above. Furthermore, even demons appear to be aware of their impending doom. See: Matthew 8:29
    Once again, though you are right in that we are made in the image of God, I don't think the argument that Peter makes should be so easily dismissed - otherwise it wouldn't have been included in the Scriptures in the manner it has been.

    5. Regarding theology in general - even if you're an outstanding scholar or systematician in your age, I'd be extremely mindful of disregarding views that others have - people who have dedicated their entire lives to God by faith in Christ Jesus, people who have diligently read and investigated these matters from numerous angles, carefully measuring Scripture against itself and meticulously reading into the texts in their original language - even by triangulating different translations - through a lifetime of prayer, obedience in accordance with the Holy Spirit, through fasting and sound Biblical application in all things. Are you saying that you are right and that they are all wrong? That they have missed something? Or failed to consider something? Did you receive a revelation from God that they did not receive? What about the early fathers, who were believers just as you and I - only that they had the privilege and benefit of being taught directly from the apostles themselves - are you saying they failed to understand salvation and damnation?

    In effect, by arguing the elementary Christian truths as found in the creeds, we are setting ourselves above people who quite frankly have a far deeper understanding of Scripture than we do - and again, they too are God-fearing and God-loving, baptized into Christ, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    Take a quick look at what the creeds say:
    "so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire." The last part echoes: Matthew 25:46

    Again, I want to stress that the creeds are not made up dogma that the church invented, but a systematic summary of elementary Biblical teaching. If our understanding falls outside of this (going hard against the creeds), my advice would be to take a step back in humility and consider the possibility that we may be wrong, and look into where we went wrong. Which verses in particular lead us down to our current thinking and how these verses are explained in their true and natural context. More importantly, pray to God for wisdom, who gives generously to all without finding fault.

    Lastly, if you hold that the Greek word for "eternal" as found in Matthew 25:46 only means "for a time" and not "forever", this also means that those who are in glorified in Christ are also only so "for a time", then either cease to exist or fall out of grace once again. And again, that God and His kingdom is not eternal, but that it one day will come to an end. Scriptures teaches none of this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  7. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    That is very good advice. Surprisingly we often wonder why those posting here apparently don't follow it. ;)

    (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book
    House, 1950, p. 96.)

    German theologian - Philip Schaff writes :“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”

    One of the best clues to early Christian theology is in artwork discovered at the Catacombs in Rome . Graves of common people were adorned with drawings of Jesus as the Good Shepherd - beardless and virtually indistinguishable from the Greco-Roman savior figure Orpheus. Other popular images there were the Last Supper and the Magi at the birth of Jesus. Occasionally in early Christian art, Jesus is shown working miracles using a magic wand! Significantly, the crucifix is noticeably absent from early art, as is any depiction of judgment scenes or Hell.

    Dr. Ken Vincent;
    "As we move into the middle of the 2 nd Century, a shift takes place from writing works considered "Holy Scripture" to interpretations of it. The first writer on the theology on Christian Universalism whose works survive is St. Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215CE). He was the head of the theology school at Alexandria which, until it closed at the end of the 4 th Century, was a bastion of Universalist thought. His pupil, Origen (185 - 254 CE), wrote the first complete presentation of Christianity as a system, and Universalism was at its core. Origen was the first to produce a parallel Old Testament that included Hebrew, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, the Septuagint, and three other Greek translations. He was also the first to recognize that some parts of the Bible should be taken literally and others metaphorically. He wrote a defense of Christianity in response to a pagan writer's denigration of it. Prior to the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of all of Universalist thought in the 6 th Century, Church authority had already reached back in time to pick out several of Origen's ideas they deemed unacceptable. Finally, he was condemned by the Church because his concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not agree with the "official" Doctrine of the Trinity formulated a century after his death! After the 6 th Century, much of his work was destroyed; fortunately, some of it survived."
     
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  8. Hethatreadethit

    Hethatreadethit ClintR Supporter

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  9. Hethatreadethit

    Hethatreadethit ClintR Supporter

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    Say what you will about hell, the point is this: Heaven is good, hell is bad; Life is good, death is bad, G-ds commandments are good, breaking the commandments is bad,Ignorance can be bliss, but temporary arrangements come to an end, and righteousness is good, but sin is bad.


    Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
    Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
    Mar 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

    Without fear of retribution, there is no need of obedience, unless you are perfect in the love of G-d. But children have to start somewhere, usually experiencing the difference between good and evil, and experiencing the rewards of both.
     
  10. Hethatreadethit

    Hethatreadethit ClintR Supporter

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    Say what you will about hell, the point is this: Heaven is good, hell is bad; Life is good death is bad, G-ds commandments are good, braking the commandments is bad,Ignorance can be bliss, but temporary arrangements come to an end, and righteousness is good, but sin is bad.


    Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
    Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
    Mar 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

    Without fear of retribution, there is no need of obedience, unless you are perfect in the love of G-d. But children have to start somewhere, usually experiencing the difference between good and evil, and experiencing the rewards of both.
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I've never been to a damnationist church. I imaging it would have a sign like this one:

    [​IMG]

    STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι
    ἀπόλλυμι and ἀπολλύω ([ἀπολλύει John 12:25 T Tr WH], imperative ἀπόλλυε Romans 14:15 [cf. Buttmann, 45 (39); WH's Appendix, p. 168f]); future ἀπολέσω and (1 Corinthians 1:19 ἀπολῶ from a passage in the O. T., where often) ἀπολῶ (cf. Winers Grammar, 83 (80); [Buttmann, 64 (56)]); 1 aorist ἀπώλεσα; to destroy; middle, present ἀπόλλυμαι; [imperfect 3 person plural ἀπώλλυντο 1 Corinthians 10:9 T Tr WH]; future ἀπολοῦμαι; 2 aorist ἀπωλόμην; (2 perfect active participle ἀπολωλώς); [from Homer down]; to perish.
    1. to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin: Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Luke 17:27, 29; Jude 1:5; τὴν σοφίαν render useless,

    ---------------------------------------------
    Matthew 10:28“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy<622> both soul and body in gehenna.





    Very informative.........Thanks for that......
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  12. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    The bible canon has had several books removed by humans that believed those books are uninspired, and/or unimportant to other human's spiritual growth and relationship with the Most High God.

    This is not controversy; it is historical and ecumenical fact.


    With that said, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain the validity of Hell. In fact, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain that the pedestrian and religious definition of Hell is legitimate - considering what the Most High God has said. Some of us have, (un)fortunately, had experiences with elements of the Hell dimension to let us know that the location is very real, and is not somewhere anyone wants to be (despite the fact the Word of God Himself said that many will fall by the wayside.)


    There is already an "election," and everything that will happen has already happened. So, it truly is a "gift" to receive the Spirit and be saved, because it shows who we are as well - that we have always been His.



    In my opinion, there exists a Hell - it is a place of refinement that is separate from the Father. The analogy of the foundry (fire) is to show that impurities must be "burned" out in order to make the ore "pure". However, someone that is wicked has deep-rooted, voluminous impurities - that require long times to burn out. If you are all impurities (reprobate), then you will "burn forever" by consequence of your iniquity. The goal of Hell is to refine impure spirits, or to put them in a place where their impurities cannot dope other pure substances. It is a mercy to both the righteous and the wicked.
     
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  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I like the Hebrew.

    A fairly good study site:

    Rev 9:11
    They have over them as king the angel of the abyss: his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek tongue he hath the name Apollyonu/Destroyer/Ruiner

    The Ancient Hebrew Research Center

    Topics | AHRC


    In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture. Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.

    The Greek culture describes objects in relation to the object itself. The Hebrew culture describes objects in relation to the Hebrew himself.

    http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_parallel.html

    As Hebrew poetry is written much differently than our own Western style of poetry, many do not recognize the poetry which can cause problems when translating or interpreting these passages.
    Approximately 75% of the Tenach (Old Testament) is poetry. All of Psalms and Proverbs are Hebrew poetry. Even the book of Genesis is full of Poetry.

    There are several reasons the Hebrews used poetry, much of the Torah was sung and was easier to sing too, poetry and songs are easier to memorize than straight texts, Parallel poetry (as in Genesis 1) emphasizes something of great importance, as the creation story is. The rabbis believed that if something is worth saying, it is worth saying beautifully."

    When we read Genesis chapter one we usually see only one story there, but there are actually many stories. Why don't we see these multiple stories? Because we read the Hebrew Bible from a Modern Western thinkers point of view and not from an Ancient Eastern thinkers such as the Hebrews who wrote it. The Hebrews style of writing is prolific with a style of poetry unfamiliar to most readers of the Bible. This poetry is nothing like the poetry we are used to reading today and therefore it is invisible to us.
    ===========================
    Joe 3:6
    Also the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem You have sold to the Greeks,
    That you may remove them far from their borders.

    Zec 9:13
    For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and will make thee as the sword of a mighty man.

    Jhn 7:35
    Then the Jews said among themselves, “Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?

    Luk 23:38
    And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:[fn]
    THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    ================================
    There is even a transliterated Hebrew NT version:

    Galatians 5 Orthodox Jewish Bible

    Galatians 5

    Orthodox Jewish Bible

    1 For this " zman cheruteinu" (Pesach Haggadah Kiddush), Moshiach freed us; stand fast, therefore, and be not again bound by an ol (yoke) of avdut (slavery).
    2 Hinei, I Sha'ul say to you, that if you Goyim undergo the bris milah, Moshiach will profit you nothing [3:12-14]. 3 And I testify again to every one of you undergoing bris milah that such is chal (placed under obligation) to do the taryag mitzvot. 4 You who want to be YITZDAK IM HASHEM (justified with G-d) by [boasting in] chumra (i.e., legal justification), by ma'asim of Gezetz, are estranged from Moshiach, you at that point fall from the Chen v'Chesed Hashem (T.N. See Eph 2:8-9]. 5 For we by the Ruach Hakodesh eagerly await by emunah that for which we have tikvah, our Tzidkat Hashem righteousness. 6 For in Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua/Yeshua [Zech 6:11-12; Ezra 3:8] neither bris milah is of any force nor the lack of it, but emunah working through ahavah (agape) [T.N. See Gal 5:2 Gentile context contra Acts 21:21].

    7 You [Goyim] were running well: who hindered you from being persuaded by HaEmes? 8 This persuasion is not of the One calling you. 9 A little chametz leavens all habatzek (the dough, T.N. SEE PESACH HAGGADAH). 10 I have bitachon, (confidence) in you in Adoneinu that you will think nothing other, but the one troubling you will bear the judgment, whoever he may be. 11 But if I preach [to Goyim] the bris milah, Achim B'Moshiach, why am I still being persecuted? In that case, the michshol (stumbling block) of [Moshiach's] Etz (3:12-14; DEVARIM 21:23) has been abolished. 12 O if the ones [the mohalim of Goyim] troubling you would castrate themselves!

    13 For, Achim B'Moshiach, you were called for " zman Cheruteinu" (5:1); only use not the Cherut for a pretext for the basar, but, through ahavah (agape), minister to one another as avadim (servants). 14 For the entire Torah has been summed up in one word: V'AHAVTA L'RE'ACHA KAMOCHA (" Love your neighbor as yourself" VAYIKRA 19:18). 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Bible also doesn’t speak of cars and computers, and yet they exist. That Bible doesn’t mention everything doesn’t mean that nothing else can be.

    Bible speaks of “hell”, that is why I believe it exists.
     
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <KA>The bible canon has had several books removed by humans that believed those books are uninspired, and/or unimportant to other human's spiritual growth and relationship with the Most High God.
    This is not controversy; it is historical and ecumenical fact.
    With that said, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain the validity of Hell. In fact, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain that the pedestrian and religious definition of Hell is legitimate - considering what the Most High God has said. Some of us have, (un)fortunately, had experiences with elements of the Hell dimension to let us know that the location is very real, and is not somewhere anyone wants to be (despite the fact the Word of God Himself said that many will fall by the wayside.)
    There is already an "election," and everything that will happen has already happened. So, it truly is a "gift" to receive the Spirit and be saved, because it shows who we are as well - that we have always been His.
    In my opinion, there exists a Hell - it is a place of refinement that is separate from the Father. The analogy of the foundry (fire) is to show that impurities must be "burned" out in order to make the ore "pure". However, someone that is wicked has deep-rooted, voluminous impurities - that require long times to burn out. If you are all impurities (reprobate), then you will "burn forever" by consequence of your iniquity. The goal of Hell is to refine impure spirits, or to put them in a place where their impurities cannot dope other pure substances. It is a mercy to both the righteous and the wicked.<KA>

    A lot of theories and opinions but zero scriptures, historical or ecumenical facts.
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    You quoted my point #1 - is that as far as you got? One of my discoveries was that we cannot accept "hell" a priori just because the word is in there, for you see the word "hell" is not in the Greek or Hebrew. None of the four words (sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus) rendered as "hell" in your Bible refer to a place of eternal, conscious torment. Two come close (hades and tartarus), but they come from Greek mythology, which is to say, from paganism. That alone should impell you to run for a concordance. BTW, my Bible translation does not speak of "hell," so I don't believe it exists. Anyway, I consulted a KJV to settle the "hell" question, and that should get you to wondering as well. I will be happy to answer any questions you have.
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yup: the Bible speaks of 4 (four) hells. Do you know what the end product of all four hells are?

    Yes, 1213, the end of hell's is the Lake of Fire radiating with theion and theioo.

    The Consuming Fire by George MacDonald

    Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Consuming Fire
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Having been active at this forum for 2 decades and having heard the arguments that αἰών/aion never means eternity and αἰώνιος/aionios never means eternal, everlasting etc. many times I decided to do a word study in scripture myself.
    .....In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7] 1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8] 1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9] Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10] John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11] John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12] 1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13] 1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
    [14] Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16] Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17] John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [18] John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [19]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [20] Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [21] Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [22] John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I will bet on my favorite wife's life you desire to explore what Dr. Marvin Vincent writes regarding "everlasting destruction"? Available upon request, or without it.

    The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction.

    Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment . Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken.

    It’s a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.

    “There are many persons of combative tendencies, who read for ammunition, and dig out of the Bible iron for balls. They read, and they find nitre and charcoal and sulphur for powder. They read, and they find cannon. They read, and they make portholes and embrasures. And if a man does not believe as they do, they look upon him as an enemy, and let fly the Bible at him to demolish him. So men turn the word of God into a vast arsenal, filled with all manner of weapons, offensive and defensive.” -Henry Ward Beecher
     
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  20. Kaon

    Kaon Well-Known Member

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    Celibate
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