Hell is a 404

[Lazarus Short]

The reason why it's too late to repent in the age to come is because in those days there will be nothing to repent from, because then we are made complete in Christ and there is no longer evil.

I'm not sure I agree with your "eye-for-eye" caricature.

Because Romans 6:7 - "For the person who has died has been freed from sin." This is covered in my OP, and pointed forward to by the Law of the Jubilee. At a set time, when the trumpet is blown or when you die and get resurrected, you are free to go to your inheritance - at least, those in the first resurrection. It looks like those in the second resurrection will not inherit in the Kingdom, and that alone is sufficient reason for the Great Commission. Looking at mankind in general, those in the second resurrection should have plenty to repent of, starting with something like, "I can't believe I didn't believe in You before!"

My "eye-for-an-eye" expression was a result of not being able to find the exactly right phrase. I had not had coffee yet.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Ok, thanks for your outlook on these verses and how they pertain to answering my question.

However, I Corinthians 3:15 is talking about the people who are already saved. Not the whole of humanity.
I Corinthians 15:24-28 is talking about the final enemy being death. After all is said and done, sinners and the lost, Satan, his fallen angels and demons, all are gone forever, all that is left is the saved, the non-fallen angels, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then...death dies... it is no more. There will be no more death.

As for eternity. Sounds like nit picking here. Eternity is open at each end, for sure. Endless time either way, back or forward.

Is it not possible for us to be elevated to the state of existing in an already existing "eternity"?

To say that my life will not be eternal because eternity is backward and forwards and I have a beginning.... that will not convince me that my life in glory will not be eternal. Not at all.

I'll just say this much: Only God is eternal because He exists outside of His creation, outside time and space. Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning [time] God [spirit] created [energy] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter]. So you see, the created Cosmos, and everything in it, is temporal. Your life in Glory will be forever, but not eternal. OTOH, when God becomes All in all, our lives might just become eternal - the final word is not in yet, and we should give the Father some "wiggle" room, for He does unexpected things.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sorry, I don't get that to be the meaning here. I understand it to mean that God will be the highest of the High the ruler of all, the all in all....
not that all will be forgiven. Again, this is only dealing with the saved, not the lost.

I think, in this case, it would be better, for you to show scripture that states that the eternal torment is for a short time or not for ever......

I can only refer you back to I Timothy 4:10 "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." [KJV]

Again, I can only refer you back to I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." [KJV] I realized the implication - that with death destroyed, no one can be still dead (or in Hell), and so the Lake of Fire must give up its dead. Therefore, your "eternal" torment is temporal, for a short time, and not for ever.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Exactly! Keep in mind that God's Justice involved sending His Only Son here to the Earth, to live as a lowly man and die a miserable death. God loves us THAT much!

How is Christ's death a loving act?

 

[JacksBratt]

I'll just say this much: Only God is eternal because He exists outside of His creation, outside time and space. Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning [time] God [spirit] created [energy] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter]. So you see, the created Cosmos, and everything in it, is temporal. Your life in Glory will be forever, but not eternal. OTOH, when God becomes All in all, our lives might just become eternal - the final word is not in yet, and we should give the Father some "wiggle" room, for He does unexpected things.

Just where are you getting the words to say "the final word is not in yet"?

Right now, we live in a finite world controlled by time. When we die, we pass out of this world, into another dimension. A world of eternity. There, we will live outside of the constraints of time and many other physical laws of this world.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:


A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”


2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.


3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.


4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.


5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.


6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.


8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.


9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.


11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.


12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.


13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.


14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.


15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…


17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.


18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.


19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.


20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.


21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.


22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.


23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.


24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

Here's what I see in your post. You started with an idea, and then you sought to prove it. You don't want punishment for sin to exist, so you've made it disappear; however, its only disappeared in your mind.

 

[JacksBratt]

I can only refer you back to I Timothy 4:10 "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." [KJV]

Again, I can only refer you back to I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." [KJV] I realized the implication - that with death destroyed, no one can be still dead (or in Hell), and so the Lake of Fire must give up its dead. Therefore, your "eternal" torment is temporal, for a short time, and not for ever.

You cannot take one verse out of the scripture and use it to speak for the rest. It is typical of many bible teachers to use the rule of the need for at least three examples in scripture to back up what they are saying to be truth.

The verse you are using is not talking about later on in some place in time, all people being forgiven and freed from their punishments.

As for the last enemy being destroyed being death, show me more scripture to support what you are trying to say this speaks of.

It does not mean that when death is destroyed that all that have died get resurrected....Please show scripture for this.

 

[JacksBratt]

How is Christ's death a loving act?

What do you mean?

 

[Lazarus Short]

How is Christ's death a loving act?

God sent His Son here for our benefit, even foreknowing what would happen. Sounds like love to me (John 3:16). What would you call it?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Just where are you getting the words to say "the final word is not in yet"?

Out of my English vocabulary. No, seriously, I said that because it has not happened yet, and God has seen fit to not tell us about it in detail.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God sent His Son here for our benefit, even foreknowing what would happen. Sounds like love to me (John 3:16). What would you call it?

In what particular way is it loving? What benefit are you referring to?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Here's what I see in your post. You started with an idea, and then you sought to prove it. You don't want punishment for sin to exist, so you've made it disappear; however, its only disappeared in your mind.

Lots of folks will be in the second resurrection, and will not exactly skate into the Kingdom under showers of rose petals. They will go into the wine press of the wrath of God - sorry, did I say otherwise? Maybe I look ahead to the ultimate outcome too much. I suspect that this wrath is closer in meaning to "zeal" - more disciplining, more refining, more cleansing for them. Do you think God compares Himself to refining fire and to fullers' soap for no reason? So you see, it is far, far better to have gone through all that in this life.

 

[Lazarus Short]

You cannot take one verse out of the scripture and use it to speak for the rest. It is typical of many bible teachers to use the rule of the need for at least three examples in scripture to back up what they are saying to be truth.

The verse you are using is not talking about later on in some place in time, all people being forgiven and freed from their punishments.

As for the last enemy being destroyed being death, show me more scripture to support what you are trying to say this speaks of.

It does not mean that when death is destroyed that all that have died get resurrected....Please show scripture for this.

Did you or did you not read all the Scriptures referenced in the OP? If not, read them, as I think they are sufficient. If you have, why are you asking for more?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Lots of folks will be in the second resurrection, and will not exactly skate into the Kingdom under showers of rose petals. They will go into the wine press of the wrath of God - sorry, did I say otherwise? Maybe I look ahead to the ultimate outcome too much. I suspect that this wrath is closer in meaning to "zeal" - more disciplining, more refining, more cleansing for them. Do you think God compares Himself to refining fire and to fullers' soap for no reason? So you see, it is far, far better to have gone through all that in this life.

Sounds like a picnic against eternal condemnation, which is why it could be seen as self-serving.

No false prophets ever exaggerated God's wrath and consequences for sin and rebellion. They all downplayed it

 

[Lazarus Short]

In what particular way is it loving? What benefit are you referring to?

Benefit: saving our unworthy selves from sin and death. It's what any loving Father would do.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Benefit: saving our unworthy selves from sin and death. It's what any loving Father would do.

How does His dying accomplish that?

 

[Der Alte]

I can only refer you back to I Timothy 4:10 "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." [KJV]
Again, I can only refer you back to I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." [KJV] I realized the implication - that with death destroyed, no one can be still dead (or in Hell), and so the Lake of Fire must give up its dead. Therefore, your "eternal" torment is temporal, for a short time, and not for ever.

A good example of proof text theology, take a piece of a verse here and a piece of a verse there to create your theology. Does 1 Cor 15:26 and Rev 20:13 really say "no one can be still dead (or in Hell), and so the Lake of Fire must give up its dead?"

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Rev 20:13 does not say that the lake of fire [LoF] gives up any dead. After death and hell give up their dead they are thrown into the LoF which is the second death, vs. 14.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

In Rev 20:4 death and hell are thrown into the LoF. This vs. appears to fulfill 1 Cor 15:26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." But 4 verses after 21:4, vs. 21:8 says "the fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars, shall have their part" in the LoF. After "no more death" these groups will be thrown into the LoF.

 

[JacksBratt]

Did you or did you not read all the Scriptures referenced in the OP? If not, read them, as I think they are sufficient. If you have, why are you asking for more?

All the scriptures you have sited in the OP are all well and good. However, they are taken out of context and/or are used to arrive at conclusions that contradict solid foundational theology.

Even your opening remark:

"There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else."

is unfounded and a flawed conclusion from the information given.

You cannot take scripture in bits and pieces and take it out of context to back up something you wish were true.

The concepts that you are trying to use scripture to deny are well established as truth by theologians over centuries.

The Bible is written so that it is easy to understand. It takes considerable effort to piece parts of it together in order to attempt to contradict it's basic message.

This being, Man, sinned, Christ came and became the door. Believe in Him and be saved. Given eternal life in glory or reject Him and have eternal life of punishment.

I asked you some point blank solid foundational questions of biblical truth.
Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins? Your answer: Yes.

Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance? Your answer: Yes

Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death? Your answer: Yes

Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life? Your answer: Yes

Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?
Your answer: No

All of these are basic Christianity 101. You disagree and tried to use the bible to back up your view to all but one.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Sounds like a picnic against eternal condemnation, which is why it could be seen as self-serving.

No false prophets ever exaggerated God's wrath and consequences for sin and rebellion. They all downplayed it

"Picnic"? Did you mean to say "polemic"?

I downplay nothing. I even did a "quick & dirty" calculation of the volume of blood squeezed out of the winepress in the Revelation, and how many lives it probably represented - a fearful number, but far short of a billion. OTOH, Jesus told the Pharisees sternly that they would enter the Kingdom behind the prostitutes and tax collectors. What, just a late entry into the Kingdom? Yes...and maybe some suffering along the way. I try to keep things in balance, with one eye on the ultimate outcome.

 

[Lazarus Short]

All the scriptures you have sited in the OP are all well and good. However, they are taken out of context and/or are used to arrive at conclusions that contradict solid foundational theology.

Even your opening remark:

"There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else."

is unfounded and a flawed conclusion from the information given.

You cannot take scripture in bits and pieces and take it out of context to back up something you wish were true.

The concepts that you are trying to use scripture to deny are well established as truth by theologians over centuries.

The Bible is written so that it is easy to understand. It takes considerable effort to piece parts of it together in order to attempt to contradict it's basic message.

This being, Man, sinned, Christ came and became the door. Believe in Him and be saved. Given eternal life in glory or reject Him and have eternal life of punishment.

I asked you some point blank solid foundational questions of biblical truth.
Do you think that the Bible teaches that there is no eternal consequence for our sins? Your answer: Yes.

Do you think that the Bible teaches that after death we will get a second chance? Your answer: Yes

Do you think that the Bible teaches that everyone will be forgiven by God after death? Your answer: Yes

Do you believe that the Bible teaches that the punishment for our sins is only in this earthly life? Your answer: Yes

Do you believe that we are saved by being a basically good person who does good things and is kind to others?
Your answer: No

All of these are basic Christianity 101. You disagree and tried to use the bible to back up your view to all but one.

There you go, putting "yes" and "no" in my mouth, when my answers were more nuanced. I consider it next to a lie. Quote my response (do not boil it down), or go away. You are worth no more answers if your goal was to set a trap for me, but that's the Christian Forum for you.