Hebrews 6:4-6

[JacksLadder]

I think your view of God is too human.

Christ actually accomplished something on the cross.

If He only made a "way" but did not actually pay for sins, we are all doomed men.

If He really did accomplish something and really did pay for the sins of His people and ransomed/purchased them (Rev 5:9) then it is a finished work. Praise be and glory to God.



Eph 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I know God knows everything ahead of time but that could also be viewed as him seeing who would and would not shipwreck ahead of time.

So why the passages about loosing and shipwrecking our faith?

I have no problem becoming a full Calvanist if you guys can reconcile these two seemingly conflicting passages of the Bible.

 

[the particular baptist]

So why the passages about loosing and shipwrecking our faith?

There are many warnings we are not to take for granted, but test ourselves to see if indeed we are in the faith. Look at the book of Hebrews and how the HolySpirit repeatedly warns professing jews about returning to judaism.

We are not to isolate scripture but we need to see its harmony, in this way we understand that those who fall away were never of us. Or, as Apostle John said; 1Johnn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

I have no problem becoming a full Calvanist if you guys can reconcile these two seemingly conflicting passages of the Bible.

Brother, no once can convince you of the doctrines of grace but the HolySpirit. Make time to be alone to God and cry out to Him.

 

[JacksLadder]

There are many warnings we are not to take for granted, but test ourselves to see if indeed we are in the faith. Look at the book of Hebrews and how the HolySpirit repeatedly warns professing jews about returning to judaism.

We are not to isolate scripture but we need to see its harmony, in this way we understand that those who fall away were never of us. Or, as Apostle John said; 1Johnn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.



Brother, no once can convince you of the doctrines of grace but the HolySpirit. Make time to be alone to God and cry out to Him.

I thought in Calvanism God comes to you without calling out to him.

 

[the particular baptist]

I thought in Calvanism God comes to you without calling out to him.

#1, its Calvinism, not Calvanism ;P

If you will ever be convinced of the doctrines of grace it will be because of the HolySpirit.

As Christians we need to be crying out to God in prayer. Dont you pray ?

 

[JacksLadder]

As Christians we need to be crying out to God in prayer. Dont you pray ?

Yes , but I do wonder if everything is predetermined what is the point of it all. Why not just sit back and don't even worry about Religion and let God do the work.

 

[the particular baptist]

Yes , but I do wonder if everything is predetermined what is the point of it all. Why not just sit back and don't even worry about Religion and let God do the work.

Youre missing the point. The main point is the glory of God.

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Unconverted unregenerated people are slaves to sin in rebellion to God, idolaters, worshiping themselves and their lusts.

When a person hears the gospel and is genuinely converted he is freed from the bonds of sin and self worship and free now to do what he was created to do, live in such a way as to bring God His due glory. Born again people still have indwelling sin because of our temporal bodies, but we are no longer slaves to sin. Regenerated people exhibits the characteristics of sonship and fruit of the HolySpirit, progressively hating sin and striving for holiness. When they fall they are chastened and corrected by the Father and will never completely fall away.

 

[JacksLadder]

Youre missing the point. The main point is the glory of God.

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Unconverted unregenerated people are slaves to sin in rebellion to God, idolaters, worshiping themselves and their lusts.

When a person hears the gospel and is genuinely converted he is freed from the bonds of sin and self worship and free now to do what he was created to do, live in such a way as to bring God His due glory. Born again people still have indwelling sin because of our temporal bodies, but we are no longer slaves to sin. Regenerated people exhibits the characteristics of sonship and fruit of the HolySpirit, progressively hating sin and striving for holiness. When they fall they are chastened and corrected by the Father and will never completely fall away.

All things are to be for God's glory. O.k. I agree with that.

But if Adam was without sin and then fell , who are we to not be able to loose our salvation? God let the first man which he called good to fall which destroyed man kind so why not others?

If grace is irresistible how was Adam who walked with God able to resist it?

 

[DeaconDean]

All things are to be for God's glory. O.k. I agree with that.

But if Adam was without sin and then fell , who are we to not be able to loose our salvation? God let the first man which he called good to fall which destroyed man kind so why not others?

If grace is irresistible how was Adam who walked with God able to resist it?

You have two false asumptions here to begin with.

1) Your view of Adam.

2) Assuming that Adam was under grace.

Answer #1: Arthur W. Pink shows the difference between "unfallen" Adam, the sinner, and Christ:

In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of Innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because He was "the Holy One of God." Before He was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with His sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was His eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam’s will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise—capable of turning toward either good or evil—the sinner’s will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner’s will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart.

Arthur W. Pink, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, Chapter 7, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD AND THE HUMAN WILL​

Source​

Answer #2: Adam was not under grace. The age of grace did not start until Christ died on the cross. So how could Adam resist something he was not under? ​

who are we to not be able to loose our salvation?

I've already tried to answer that question, but you just don't seem to get it. Let me put it another way.​

Now I don't know what your last name is, but for discussions sake, lets say it is Smith.​

When you were born, you were born into the Smith family. You carry the name Smith as a result of it. Now, sometime in the future, you may do something that may cause your family to disown you. Lets say you commit murder, or become a serial murderer. This brings shame on you, your family, namely your father and mother, and it brings shame on your family's name. Now no matter what you do, you'll still always be a Smith. Why? Because you'll always carry your mother and fathers DNA. Even if you or them, change, yours or their name, you'll still be theirs. Why? Because you were born unto them​

If you are born-again, born into the family of God, how can you become "un-born"?​

The Bible tells us that we are:​

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -1 Pet. 3:23​

Are you gonna sit there and tell me that we can "corrput" that which is "incorruptible"?​

Or, are you gonna sit there and tell me that Peter lied when the Holy Spirit led him to write that?​

How can one become "unborn"? ​

Please explain that to me.​

God Bless​

Till all are one.​

 

[JacksLadder]

You have two false asumptions here to begin with.

1) Your view of Adam.

2) Assuming that Adam was under grace.

Answer #1: Arthur W. Pink shows the difference between "unfallen" Adam, the sinner, and Christ:

Arthur W. Pink, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, Chapter 7, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD AND THE HUMAN WILL​

Source​

Answer #2: Adam was not under grace. The age of grace did not start until Christ died on the cross. So how could Adam resist something he was not under? ​

I've already tried to answer that question, but you just don't seem to get it. Let me put it another way.​

Now I don't know what your last name is, but for discussions sake, lets say it is Smith.​

When you were born, you were born into the Smith family. You carry the name Smith as a result of it. Now, sometime in the future, you may do something that may cause your family to disown you. Lets say you commit murder, or become a serial murderer. This brings shame on you, your family, namely your father and mother, and it brings shame on your family's name. Now no matter what you do, you'll still always be a Smith. Why? Because you'll always carry your mother and fathers DNA. Even if you or them, change, yours or their name, you'll still be theirs. Why? Because you were born unto them​

If you are born-again, born into the family of God, how can you become "un-born"?​

The Bible tells us that we are:​

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -1 Pet. 3:23​

Are you gonna sit there and tell me that we can "corrput" that which is "incorruptible"?​

Or, are you gonna sit there and tell me that Peter lied when the Holy Spirit led him to write that?​

How can one become "unborn"? ​

Please explain that to me.​

God Bless​

Till all are one.​

So if we are incorruptible(born again) we cannot loose our faith but due to the flesh it can become distorted and stalled but never lost? That Paul was saying that if we could concievably (but not really) loose our faith then it would have to be totally lost?
So really if God loved everyone then God would save everyone. So he really hates most people?

So why can't I just sit here and not worry about church if God is controlling me? What's the point of studying? What is the point of living a good life if I don't even know if I am elect? If I am elect I can then sin as much as I want?

Life seems to have less and less purpose.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

So if we are incorruptible(born again) we cannot loose our faith but due to the flesh it can become distorted and stalled but never lost? That Paul was saying that if we could concievably (but not really) loose our faith then it would have to be totally lost?
So really if God loved everyone then God would save everyone. So he really hates most people?

So why can't I just sit here and not worry about church if God is controlling me? What's the point of studying? What is the point of living a good life if I don't even know if I am elect? If I am elect I can then sin as much as I want?

Life seems to have less and less purpose.

Distorted and stalled can happen, it did with me for a decade or more actually before I realized what was happening and came back to the church. The Holy Spirit kicked me in the head.
I am proof that this can happen.
I don't feel any "less saved" than I did before my life went a bit awry, and the repentance was there as well.

thanks for listening.

 

[DeaconDean]

So if we are incorruptible(born again) we cannot loose our faith but due to the flesh it can become distorted and stalled but never lost?

Once again, lets read the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints:

And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein; whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.

The Philadelphia Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter 17, Of The Perseverance of the Saints, Section 3

Source

Now, for the umteenth time:

And though they may, through the temptation of Satan, and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein;

We recognize that it is possible, that through the temptations of Satan, temptations of the world, the corrupting nature of these things, and a neglect of the means of your presevation, you can fall into the trap of committing grevious sins, and for a time, continue in them.

whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit,

You will incur spankings by the Father, just as your father in this world would do the same to any misbehaving child, and it is possible that you may grieve the Holy Spirit to the point that He no longer works in you.

come to have their graces and comforts impaired,

The normal graces which the children of God enjoy will be impared.

have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded

You can have your heart hardened and your conscious wounded to the point that what you once considered sin, is not sin as it once was.

hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,

And as a result of the previous actions, it is possible to scandlalize others though the means of gossip and back-bitting, so that they bring upon themselves temporal judgements (spiritual spankings from God).

yet shall they renew their repentance, and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end.

Yet through it all, they have not lost their faith, and they will renew themselves through the act of repentance, and be preserved by their faith in Jesus Christ, even unto the end.

That Paul was saying that if we could concievably (but not really) loose our faith then it would have to be totally lost?

If you loose your faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, you never really had faith to begin with. See Matt. 13 for examples of this.

So really if God loved everyone then God would save everyone.

No. That is the doctrine of Universalism.

So he really hates most people?

No.

So why can't I just sit here and not worry about church if God is controlling me?

Because you are not a robot as most opponents of "predestination" teach.

What's the point of studying?

Because the scriptures command you to study. (cf. 2 Tim. 2:15)

What is the point of living a good life if I don't even know if I am elect?

Did you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior?

If you answer yes, then you are one of the "elect".

If I am elect I can then sin as much as I want?

No, that is the doctrine of "antinominianism". (lawlessness)

Life seems to have less and less purpose.

Not so, you just don't know direction.

Read, Study, Pray, Listen, Do!

Read: the scriptures.

Study: them, see what they have to say.

Pray: the Holy Spirit would give you guidance.

Listen: to what that still small quiet voice has to say.

Do: put that into action.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

That was the point I was trying to get at....you put it very well DeaconDean....God spanked the crap out of me!!! Like my earthly father did when I was "bad" as a kid.

 

[JacksLadder]

I feel like im getting spanked right now :o

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I feel like im getting spanked right now :o

It's the Holy Spirit!!! Go with it.

 

[JacksLadder]

Did you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your lord and Savior?

If you answer yes, then you are one of the "elect".

O.k. I am confused is'int God suppose to fill me with Faith before I decide to Repent and believe in Jesus?

 

[JacksLadder]

It's the Holy Spirit!!! Go with it.

I can't stay away I just keep comming back for punishment

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

O.k. I am confused is'int God suppose to fill me with Faith before I decide to Repent and believe in Jesus?

If you are repenting then the faith is already there my brother. If it weren't who would you be repenting towards??? See? God does it all, but we do the repenting....you're elect before you realize it eh?

My addendum to this:

We repent...but repentance is a gift from God that goes hand in hand with God's gift of Faith!!!!!

Thanks again for listening.

 

[DeaconDean]

O.k. I am confused is'int God suppose to fill me with Faith before I decide to Repent and believe in Jesus?

No, according to the doctrine of "regeneration", the following happens:

Conviction
Regeneration
Faith implanted, and the exercise of that in repentance
Indwelling

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[the particular baptist]

No, according to the doctrine of "regeneration", the following happens:

Conviction
Regeneration
Faith implanted, and the exercise of that in repentance
Indwelling

God Bless

Till all are one.

What bro Dean said. ^

 

[JacksLadder]

Conviction: Like when you are convicted of a crime?