Heaven Or Hell

[fhansen]

Where in the Bible do we find support for the wicked being literally punished everlastingly, and how does that happen... in other words, how are they punished eternally, since they have to be alive for that to happen?

Why does a living person need to be reborn? All humans die physically here on earth but that doesn't mean they don't exist eternally.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.
However, as I mentioned to a previous poster, honest hearted people are not interested in people opening their mouth and giving an answer. They are more interested in people opening the Bible, and supplying an answer.
This thread invites the latter.
So, if you can supply scriptures in support of what you say, that would be most appreciated

You can start with John 15 and then move on to Rom 8. We produce good fruit only by virtue of being connected to the vine, we overcome sin only by walking with the Spirit, resulting in eternal life.

 

[Clare73]

No, God did not say all prophecy is literal, but He also did not say all prophecy is figurative. Numbers 12:6-8 only states that
God often speaks

"Often" is not in the text of Nu 12:6-8.

to prophets in visions and riddles, but that does not mean prophecy is always symbolic and never literal.

We see many examples where prophecy is given literally and then fulfilled literally. For example:
-Micah 5:2 prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem—fulfilled literally in Matthew 2:1.

Did they have a correct understanding of "whose origins are from of old" in the prophecy regarding Bethlehem (Mic 5:2)?
They did not, that was a riddle.

-Zechariah 9:9 predicted the Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey—fulfilled literally in Matthew 21:1-7.

"Are "Daughter of Zion" and "Daughter of Jerusalem" literal? Does dirt and stone actually give birth to female living beings?

-Psalm 22 describes details of crucifixion—fulfilled literally in Jesus' death (John 19:23-24).

Did they have a correct understanding of bulls surrounding, lions tearing prey?

So, the question is: If Revelation 20 doesn’t mean what it plainly says, then how do we determine the meaning is? Is it by looking at verses and assuming things?

On what authority are we guaranteed a correct interpretation in the meaning of prophetic riddles?

The burden of proof now is on you to show that all prophecy is written in dark sayings when there are prophecies that are obviously not written in dark sayings. They are literal.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the word of God in Nu 12:6-8 is in error.

 

[Clare73]

I have been attending church for nearly 50 years. This keeps me in check. If I ever go down a tangent where I am understanding scripture wrong, they will point it out and I listen.
This is why I asked you if you went to church. It can be pointless debating with someone who does not go to church as often, they believe that they are 100% correct in all things, as they have no guidance apart from how they personally interpret the bible.

So church assemblies are the only reliable source for Christians understanding Scripture. . .

Are all churches correct in their doctrine. . .JW's, Mormons, etc., etc.?

 

[CoreyD]

The afterlife's a bit more vague in the OT

That's an interesting way you put that, as if you find that the "NT" is vague.
Is that the case?

While I can understand the reasons for this in the case of many, the Bible does provide a clear and simple teaching on both the state of the dead, and "after life'". Perhaps that may be due to having an understanding of the foundation laid, regarding God's purpose.
We could though take a closer look at it.

Many living prior to Jesus entertained a hope of living again - Job 14:13-15
So, it is no wonder that Paul was shocked that some did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. Acts 26:8 Since resurrection of the dead was not unheard of.
Elijah raised the dead. 1 Kings 17:17-24
A man that had died, and whose body touched the bones of Elisha, came to life. 2 Kings 13:21

People were aware that God created man to live forever on earth. Ecclesiastes 3:11; Isaiah 45:18; Psalm 115:16; Psalm 37:29, 34; Proverbs 2:21, 22
So, when Jesus came on the earth, people were hoping in him as the one who would deliver them from the scourge of sin - sickness and death.

Even Lazarus' sister Martha, was looking forward to when the dead would return.
She said... "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection, in the last day." John 11:24

Jesus even demonstrated what persons would likely have envisioned.
Luke 7:11-15
11 Now it happened, the day after, that He went into a city called Nain; and many of His disciples went with Him, and a large crowd. 12 And when He came near the gate of the city, behold, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother; and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the city was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.” 14 Then He came and touched the open coffin, and those who carried him stood still. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.” 15 So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother.

Mark 5:41, 42
41 Then He took the child by the hand, and said to her, “Talitha, cumi,” which is translated, “Little girl, I say to you, arise.” 42 Immediately the girl arose and walked, for she was twelve years of age. And they were overcome with great amazement.

John 11:43, 44
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

In all these cases, people welcomed backed their loved ones, who fell asleep in death, into their loving arms.
Thus, people living prior to Jesus, hoped to live again, or and see their dead loved ones, in the "land of the living" of which they knew.
The Jews then, knew quite well that living again was a reality.
It was a basic, and simple truth.

What corrupted it, was religious leaders.
The Sadducees for example, taught that there was no hope for the dead Acts 23:8, and so, many people were confused, especially with the warped beliefs of both the Sadducees, Pharisees, and Scribes, who taught manmade doctrines.

By extension, the miracles of healing the sick, lamed, blind, deaf, etc., showed people what they could expect once they are living during the resurrection on the last day.
Mark 2:9-12
9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

and I don't recall if the NT makes explicit the eternal destinies of any OT figures, or those who died before Jesus in any case.

You are right, there.
The hope of the "OT" figures are not explicitly mentioned... Except, the Bible does make it clear that they will live again. Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

To know their destination, one has to understand God's purpose, which was made clear from the beginning, Genesis 1:28, 29, and was later referred to. Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10
The mystery revealed to the apostles, made things even more clearer Mark 4:11, Romans 16:25-27; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:9, 10, as it revealed how the way to heavenly life was opened for a small number Luke 12:32, who would rule over the earth Revelation 5:9, 10 - thus fulfilling God's afore mentioned purpose. Matthew 6:10

It takes, humility to be willing to be taught, so that one can come to an understanding of these things.
When this quality is met, we come to see how simple this is, while it remains hidden from the masses who do not submit to God's program of revealing truth. John 6:44, 45

 

[CoreyD]

Scripture interprets Scripture....where is the parallel text that states the 1,000 year reign of Christ is literal. No such understanding from the OT or NT. Show me a clear text form Scripture excluding Rev. 20 that there is a 1,000 reign.

You have looked at the paralleled text repeatedly for so many times, you won't be able to count.
I just pointed it out to you, for an additional time.
Read Revelation 20:2

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

Read Revelation 20:3

And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

One verse compliments the other.
One verse supports the other.
One verse explains the other.

The 1,000 years is contrasted with "a brief period of time".
You understand what a brief period of time is, don't you.
Ho can you relate to a brief period of time, if you do not accept 1,000 years, as literal?

Say for example, you choose to interpret 1,000 years as x years. Replace x with your number.
Now contrast x with a brief period of time.

Write your result here.

Please show me the error of my ways.

Hopefully you saw it.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

You have looked at the paralleled text repeatedly for so many times, you won't be able to count.
I just pointed it out to you, for an additional time.
Read Revelation 20:2


Read Revelation 20:3


One verse compliments the other.
One verse supports the other.
One verse explains the other.

The 1,000 years is contrasted with "a brief period of time".
You understand what a brief period of time is, don't you.
Ho can you relate to a brief period of time, if you do not accept 1,000 years, as literal?

Say for example, you choose to interpret 1,000 years as x years. Replace x with your number.
Now contrast x with a brief period of time.

Write your result here.


Hopefully you saw it.

Nah. A parallel text is same textual teaching with two different writers, same textual meaning from one writer in different books, or for the same textual meaning from the same writer and the same book but different contexts.

You hold same textual meaning within the same context....I ain't falling for that one. Nice try.

 

[CoreyD]

This is what I found in the scripture where David went

1 Kings 2:10 So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David.
(Some bible versions use sleep) Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

There is no scripture that says David was resurrected before Christs Second Coming

Infact NT confirms where David is. If David is still buried a man after God's own heart, that's should tell us where everyone goes when they die the first death, until Jesus comes.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

1. Was King David a good man? Yes, a man after God's own heart, he sinned but repented
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? No
3. Where is King David now? dead and buried, waiting Christ's Second Coming, when those in Christ will come forth from their graves and meet Him in the air John 5:28-29 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

So if we look at it, there really should be no confusion on this issue, both Paul and Jesus said the same thing in regards to what happens when we die:

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Thanks again for those scriptural references.
There is only one "hiccup" here.
The scriptures do not say all those righteous people in their grave will meet the Lord in the air. Only the Saints will.
All righteous people are not the Saints.
This is the error the OP seeks to reveal.

The Saints exist for one purpose - to rule in the kingdom, and serve as priests, and they will do judging.
They do not rule, over themselves, and they certainly are not performing priestly duties over angels. So whom are they priests over, if not people?

Is this not why Revelation 21:1-4, paints the picture for us, of the 144,000 and Christ, being a tent over mankind on the earth, and wiping out every tear from their eyes, and death being no more, because the high priest, Jesus Christ, and his priestly heirs, bring mankind to the state of perfection, that God purposed man to be from the beginning?

Once that has been accomplished -that is, the kingdom that God set up in heaven Daniel 2:44, in the hands of his son Christ Jesus Daniel 7:13, 14, and his adopted sons - the Saints Daniel 7:27; Romans 8:15; Romans 8:23; Galatians 4:1-7; Ephesians 1:5, has accomplished God's will both in heaven and on earth, Ephesians 1:10 Christ will hand the kingdom over to God, so that God may be everything to everyone. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

God's will would have been accomplished - having a united family both in heaven, and on earth... where peace dwells forever Isaiah 9:6, 7, with no more pain, sickness, death Revelation 21:3, 4. nor unrighteousness 2 Peter 3:13... and none of the wicked. Psalm 37:9-11

Here is a visual of what that would be like...
The Bible paints this picture for us. Not me. Please read all referenced scriptures, to verify.

This is what God wills. Universal peace and harmony.

 

[CoreyD]

Nah. A parallel text is same textual teaching with two different writers, same textual meaning from one writer in different books, or for the same textual meaning from the same writer and the same book but different contexts.

You are sadly mistaken. I am so sorry.
With that thinking, when Jesus said Lazarus sleeps, and then he explained what he meant - aka interpreted, he needed another writer to make it legit. You think?

You hold same textual meaning within the same context....I ain't falling for that one. Nice try.

Nope. Your failure does not require agreement for it to be a failure. It is a failure. So sorry.

 

[fhansen]

That's an interesting way you put that, as if you find that the "NT" is vague.
Is that the case?

I said the OT was vague. And the NT is marginally less vague. We know there will be a new heaven and a new earth and even that is figurative language because we can't really know except by experience what either of those will be like. We have only a handful of descriptors.

What all know and agree on is the important stuff, that every tear will be wiped away, there will be no more pain and suffering and death. Evil will no longer coexist with good and total peace will reign with an uncompromising happiness for all. We know that a peace that passes all understanding, total and complete well-being, will be permanent. We will be captivated and enthralled by the absolute center of our existence which is God, radiating a love so infinite and powerful that it's virtually palpable. That's what makes eternal life worth living.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes. Repentance does lead to salvation.
What do you mean by a little bit of both?

By a little bit of both I mean righteousness is important to make it to heaven, but grace, and mercy is equally important, none of us will make it to heave based purely on our own deeds.

Eternal life, yes.
Eternal life isn't heaven though, you would agree.

Note that when we die we go to "Paradise".

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Paradise is heaven:

2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

I'm not sure what is the purpose of these scriptures. Can you comment, please.

The purpose of the scripture from John as follows:

Joh 14:15-17 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth,

This shows that as we are exposed to God's word, we need a heart to keep it and be saved.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

This scripture shows that our bent, toward sin, or right living, often determines if we will respond to Jesus.

 

[CoreyD]

No.
It is from a false gospel, and is practically everything ever posted about soul sleep, both for or against it. I don't dwell on it, study it, use it, or debate about it.

Can one question you on what you believe?
Can I ask you a couple questions... What do you believe a soul is?

 

[1Tonne]

"Often" is not in the text of Nu 12:6-8.

Did they have a correct understanding of "whose origins are from of old" in the prophecy regarding Bethlehem (Mic 5:2)?
They did not, that was a riddle.

"Are "Daughter of Zion" and "Daughter of Jerusalem" literal? Does dirt and stone actually give birth to female living beings?

Did they have a correct understanding of bulls surrounding, lions tearing prey?

On what authority are we guaranteed a correct interpretation in the meaning of prophetic riddles?

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the word of God in Nu 12:6-8 is in error.

First, regarding Numbers 12:6-8, you are correct that the word 'often' is not in the text. However, the passage still does not say that all prophecy is figurative or that it is always in riddles. It simply states that God speaks to prophets through visions and riddles but speaks clearly to Moses. That does not mean that every prophecy must be symbolic or that none have a literal fulfilment.

Second, regarding Micah 5:2—yes, some may have misunderstood 'whose origins are from of old,' but they still correctly understood that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Even if they did not grasp every detail, the core prophecy was fulfilled literally. The same is true of other prophecies—people may not always understand them fully before fulfilment, but that does not mean they are never literal. And this is the same with the 1000 years.

Third, regarding 'Daughter of Zion' and similar phrases—yes, those are symbolic, but that does not prove that all prophecy is symbolic. Prophecy can contain both literal and symbolic elements, as seen throughout Scripture. The beasts in Daniel 7 were symbolic, but they still represented literal kingdoms. The prophecy in Daniel 11 describes real historical events with remarkable accuracy. The existence of figurative language does not invalidate literal fulfillment.

As for Psalm 22, it uses poetic imagery, but the details—such as hands and feet being pierced (v. 16) and casting lots for clothing (v. 18)—were fulfilled literally in Jesus' crucifixion.

Finally, regarding interpretation, the key question is: How do we determine when a prophecy is symbolic and when it is literal? The best approach is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. If a passage provides an explanation (like in Daniel 7), we follow that. If a prophecy is fulfilled literally (like Micah 5:2 or Zechariah 9:9), we take that as a pattern. If Revelation 20 is only symbolic, then what does it symbolize, and what in Scripture confirms that interpretation?

Can you demonstrate, from Scripture, that all prophecy is only symbolic and never has a literal fulfilment?

So church assemblies are the only reliable source for Christians understanding Scripture. . .

Are all churches correct in their doctrine. . .JW's, Mormons, etc., etc.?

I take it that you do not have anyone to keep you in check. This explains a good amount. Thank you.

 

[CoreyD]

I said the OT was vague. And the NT is marginally less vague. We know there will be a new heaven and a new earth and even that is figurative language because we can't really know except by experience what either of those will be like. We have only a handful of descriptors.

Why do you speak for everyone, what applies to you?
Would it not be more honest to say "I do not know.", rather than "We do not know.", as if everyone is the same?
The Bible tells us what it will be like. God reveals to his servants 1 Corinthians 2:8-10, and Jesus reveals to his friends. John 15:14, 15

What all know and agree on is the important stuff, that every tear will be wiped away, there will be no more pain and suffering and death. Evil will no longer coexist with good and total peace will reign with an uncompromising happiness for all. We know that a peace that passes all understanding, total and complete well-being, will be permanent. We will be captivated and enthralled by the absolute center of our existence which is God, radiating a love so infinite and powerful that it's virtually palpable. That's what makes eternal life worth living.

That is a wonderful hope to look forward to.
So, even if a person hopes to go to heaven, and wakes up and finds himself, or herself on that, that person should be grateful, rather than be vexed with God, shouldn't they.

 

[CoreyD]

Why does a living person need to be reborn?

Born anew, or born of spirit, refers to a birth that allows one to attain sonship in heaven - live in heaven, as spirit begotten sons of God.
However, I am not going to go into that with you, as you aren't ready.

All humans die physically here on earth but that doesn't mean they don't exist eternally.

This is why you are not ready. You say things but do not use scriptures, and you have not answered my questions.

You can start with John 15 and then move on to Rom 8. We produce good fruit only by virtue of being connected to the vine, we overcome sin only by walking with the Spirit, resulting in eternal life.

Take care.

 

[fhansen]

That is a wonderful hope to look forward to.
So, even if a person hopes to go to heaven, and wakes up and finds himself, or herself on that, that person should be grateful, rather than be vexed with God, shouldn't they.

I didn't quite understand your question here as you worded it. Either way, the last part of my description of heaven was probably as much or more a matter of spiritual discernment than any specific biblical description. It also happens to be consistent with early church teachings including the ECFs. That notion, that a fully consummated relationship with God, when we see Him "face to face", is truly the most important aspect of eternal life- what makes it true life, "life and life abundantly"- should be the central focus of our eschatology.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

With that thinking, when Jesus said Lazarus sleeps, and then he explained what he meant - aka interpreted, he needed another writer to make it legit. You think?

Seems like you have never studied the rules for interpreting Scripture.

The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages....What Jesus said about Lazarus IS A CLEAR PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE. Why? Because Jesus gives us the explanation. This is what we want from Scripture....for Scripture to give us its own explanation. Therefore the hermenuetical principle Scriptura interpretur Scriptura doesn't apply. This is not rocket science.

The same thing concerning Jesus Parables of the Sower and the Wheat and the Tares.....Jesus gives us the meaning of the parables...they go from obscure to clear. Simple. This is what we want from Scripture....for Scripture to give us its own explanation. Therefore the hermenuetical principle Scriptura interpret Scriptura doesn't apply.

Revelation 20 is not a clear text nor does it gives it's own explanation.....therefore a parallel texts are needed for correct interpretation.

John does tell us when to interpret literally....in his first chapter. In Rev. 1:20, As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

When do we interpret literally in the Book of Revelation? When St. John specifically tells us we can.

No such interpretative key is found anywhere in Rev. 20.

 

[CoreyD]

By a little bit of both I mean righteousness is important to make it to heaven, but grace, and mercy is equally important, none of us will make it to heave based purely on our own deeds.

Note that when we die we go to "Paradise".

God has not told me this. Has he told you that?
Where can I find it in scripture?

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Yes. That thief will indeed be in paradise. I hope to make it there as well.

Paradise is heaven:

Why do you believe paradise is heaven? Why can't paradise be on earth?

2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Would you agree Paul had a vision?
John too had visions. He didn't physically go anywhere, but he was carried away.
Paradise, does not have to refer to heaven. Please see Revelation 2:7

Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

Yes, and the tree of life? Please see Revelation 22:1, 2

The purpose of the scripture from John as follows:

Joh 14:15-17 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth,

This shows that as we are exposed to God's word, we need a heart to keep it and be saved.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

This scripture shows that our bent, toward sin, or right living, often determines if we will respond to Jesus.

Thank you for explaining.

 

[CoreyD]

Seems like you have never studied the rules for interpreting Scripture.

The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages....What Jesus said about Lazarus IS A CLEAR PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE. Why? Because Jesus gives us the explanation. This is what we want from Scripture....for Scripture to give us its own explanation. Therefore the hermenuetical principle Scriptura interpretur Scriptura doesn't apply. This is not rocket science.

The same thing concerning Jesus Parables of the Sower and the Wheat and the Tares.....Jesus gives us the meaning of the parables...they go from obscure to clear. Simple. This is what we want from Scripture....for Scripture to give us its own explanation. Therefore the hermenuetical principle Scriptura interpret Scriptura doesn't apply.

Revelation 20 is not a clear text nor does it gives it's own explanation.....therefore a parallel texts are needed for correct interpretation.

John does tell us when to interpret literally....in his first chapter. In Rev. 1:20, As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

When do we interpret literally in the Book of Revelation? When St. John specifically tells us we can.

No such interpretative key is found anywhere in Rev. 20.

Jesus explained why clear things are so difficult for some people. Matthew 13:10-16
If you are up to it, and you do complete the exercise I gave you, we can then talk about your rules.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Christ the Lord routinely violated all of those "rules for interpreting Scripture".

 

[fhansen]

Born anew, or born of spirit, refers to a birth that allows one to attain sonship in heaven - live in heaven, as spirit begotten sons of God.
However, I am not going to go into that with you, as you aren't ready.

Silliness. And you offer nothing of more value anyway, something that would significantly distinguish your thinking from historical understanding. The best thing you could do for our edification would be to simply lay out your beliefs fully.