Heaven Or Hell

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The clear texts of Scripture interpret the obscure texts of Scripture. I Cor. 15 and I Thes. 4 are clear texts. I side with them. You can side with Rev. 20, an obscure text and somehow rationalize it into a clear text.

 

[Aaron112]

No need and no help to rationalize. Revelation is quite different and more rare than reason. And revelation from above is true. Reason is an enemy daily.

 

[Clare73]

First, regarding Numbers 12:6-8, you are correct that the word 'often' is not in the text. However, the passage still does not say that all prophecy is figurative or that it is always in riddles. It simply states that God speaks to prophets through visions and riddles but speaks clearly to Moses. That does not mean that every prophecy must be symbolic or that none have a literal fulfilment.

See post #176.

Then God's own word contrasting the way he speaks to the prophets in riddles and to Moses clearly (Nu 12:6-8) is untrue because we understand parts of a prophecy?
I'll let you sort that out with God.

I'm not given to going beyond what the Scripture states and adding what I think it means to what it actually states; as in "God gives prophecy in riddles, and not clearly."

Second, regarding Micah 5:2—yes, some may have misunderstood 'whose origins are from of old,' but they still correctly understood that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

Which makes it a riddle, which is only partially understood.

Even if they did not grasp every detail, the core prophecy was fulfilled literally. The same is true of other prophecies—people may not always understand them fully before fulfilment, but that does not mean they are never literal. And this is the same with the 1000 years.

Third, regarding 'Daughter of Zion' and similar phrases—yes, those are symbolic, but that does not prove that all prophecy is symbolic. Prophecy can contain both literal and symbolic elements, as seen throughout Scripture. The beasts in Daniel 7 were symbolic, but they still represented literal kingdoms. The prophecy in Daniel 11 describes real historical events with remarkable accuracy. The existence of figurative language does not invalidate literal fulfillment.

As for Psalm 22, it uses poetic imagery, but the details—such as hands and feet being pierced (v. 16) and casting lots for clothing (v. 18)—were fulfilled literally in Jesus' crucifixion.

Finally, regarding interpretation, the key question is: How do we determine when a prophecy is symbolic and when it is literal? The best approach is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. If a passage provides an explanation (like in Daniel 7), we follow that. If a prophecy is fulfilled literally (like Micah 5:2 or Zechariah 9:9), we take that as a pattern. If Revelation 20 is only symbolic, then what does it symbolize, and what in Scripture confirms that interpretation?

Rev 20 could be symbolic of the church age, where 1,000 (a number of completion) years is figurative of its completion, where
we reign with Christ (Rev 20:4) now, for we are now seated with him in the heavenlies (Eph 2:6, 1:3),
the "first resurrection" (Rev 20:5) is from eternal death to eternal life in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5),
at the end of the church age, Satan will be released (Rev 20:7), and the lawless one will be revealed (2 Th 2:5-11),
they will be destroyed (Rev 20:9-10) by the power of his coming (2 Th 2:8-10),

followed by the judgment of all mankind (Rev 20:11-13); i.e., the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46) at the end of time.

Can you demonstrate, from Scripture, that all prophecy is only symbolic and never has a literal fulfilment?

So how do we decide which is symbolic and which is literal?
Revelation is prophecy (Rev 1:3) which God said is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8).
So per God's word, I see Rev 20 as riddle (as presented above), while you see it as literal.

The rule is: interpretation of prophetic riddles must be in agreement with apostolic teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16).
We find nothing regarding such "millennium" in the apostolic teaching of Christ.
That is your personal addition to the apostolic teaching of Christ presented in the gospels and epistles.

See post #176.

I take it that you do not have anyone to keep you in check. This explains a good amount. Thank you.

I appreciate your observation, but you couldn't be further off.

 

[fhansen]

Born anew, or born of spirit, refers to a birth that allows one to attain sonship in heaven - live in heaven, as spirit begotten sons of God.
However, I am not going to go into that with you, as you aren't ready.

The point is that living people can be dead nonetheless. By the same token, people who died physically still exist.

 

[Aaron112]

hasatan prowls like a lion over the earth (or world) seeking whom he may devour. and he has already gotten a majority.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks again for those scriptural references.
There is only one "hiccup" here.
The scriptures do not say all those righteous people in their grave will meet the Lord in the air. Only the Saints will.

There is no dichotomy between the righteous and the saints, the saint are righteous the righteous are saints. Saints or righteous are anyone who is saved, There is only two groups, wheat and tares, saved and lost and there are only two resurrections. The first for the saved, the dead in Christ and those living at the time will meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:16-17 and there is no scripture thats says the 1000 years is on earth and I believe this will be a huge deception, because the devil will impersonate Christ on earth and comes as a angel of light deceiving the whole world or the majority, Christ feet does not touch the ground at His Second Coming and He says He has prepared a place for those where He is (in heaven) John 14:3 After the 1000 years Judgement will come for those who are condemned and lost. All sinners including Satan will be destroyed

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

All righteous people are not the Saints.

Verse please.

The Saints exist for one purpose - to rule in the kingdom, and serve as priests, and they will do judging.
They do not rule, over themselves, and they certainly are not performing priestly duties over angels. So whom are they priests over, if not people?

Christ rules the Kingdom, not man. The judging will be at the millennium when all the books are opened and the saved will be able to see and understand why their loved ones are not there and will judge satan and his angles and will be able to see everything and understand before God’s final Judgement of the second death after the millennium.

Is this not why Revelation 21:1-4, paints the picture for us, of the 144,000 and Christ, being a tent over mankind on the earth, and wiping out every tear from their eyes, and death being no more, because the high priest, Jesus Christ, and his priestly heirs, bring mankind to the state of perfection, that God purposed man to be from the beginning?

Revelation 21 is about after the 1000 years with Christ and after the Judgement of the condemned when He will wipe away all tears and makes a New Heaven and New Earth. Revelation, like most of the bible, is based on repeat and enlarge it is not in chronological order

Once that has been accomplished -that is, the kingdom that God set up in heaven Daniel 2:44, in the hands of his son Christ Jesus Daniel 7:13, 14, and his adopted sons - the Saints Daniel 7:29; Romans 8:15; Romans 8:23; Galatians 4:1-7; Ephesians 1:5, has accomplished God's will both in heaven and on earth, Ephesians 1:10 Christ will hand the kingdom over to God, so that God may be everything to everyone. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Christ says the New Kingdom will be on the earth (after the 1000 years) after all sin and sinners are destroyed and He brings down the New Jeresalum


Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. .

 

[1Tonne]

Can one question you on what you believe?
Can I ask you a couple questions... What do you believe a soul is?

Sorry, I have not been following the whole thread. I have been reading bits and pieces, but I have been having another debate within this thread.
I noticed the words "soul sleep". If this is what the thread has turned to, may I put my 2 cents in. (If I am not on topic, then ignore this post)

Many Christians think that we automatically go to heaven. Originally, I was uncertain and so I did not have an opinion but as time has gone on, I am beginning to think more and more that we do sleep in the grave and then on the day of Judgement we are awakened. A good verse that shows this is Daniel 12:1-2. It speaks of when the books are opened at the Day of Judgement and people who are asleep in the graves will awake. Some will be given life and some death.
Here are some interesting points:

1. Death is Consistently Called "Sleep" in Scripture
The Bible repeatedly refers to death as "sleep," implying unconsciousness:
-Daniel 12:2 – "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
-John 11:11-14 – Jesus said of Lazarus, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." Then Jesus clarified, "Lazarus has died." If Lazarus was conscious in heaven or hell, why would Jesus equate his state with sleep?
-Acts 7:60 – When Stephen was martyred, it says, "he fell asleep," rather than suggesting he immediately went to heaven.

2. The Dead Have No Consciousness
Scripture teaches that the dead are not aware or active in any way:
-Ecclesiastes 9:5 – "The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." If the dead were conscious in heaven or hell, this would not be true.
-Psalm 146:4 – "When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." There is no ongoing thought process after death.
-Isaiah 38:18-19 – Hezekiah says, "For Sheol does not thank you, death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." If believers immediately went to heaven, they would surely be praising God.

3. Resurrection, Not Immediate Heaven or Hell, Is the Hope of Believers
The Bible consistently teaches that believers receive eternal life at the resurrection, not at the moment of death:
-1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." This shows that the dead remain asleep until the resurrection. (This is the last day resurrection of every person spoken of by Jesus in John 6:39-40. This includes those who are alive and dead, believers and non-believers, to judgment. NOTE: This verse is not a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture verse)

4. Jesus Did Not Teach Immediate Consciousness After Death
Some argue that Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross contradict soul sleep, but the misunderstanding comes from punctuation:
-Luke 23:43 – Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." However, Greek manuscripts have no punctuation. Punctuation was added hundreds of years later. So, punctuation is not God inspired. If the comma is move after the word "today", it then reads as, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise," So, on the day that Jesus was hung on the cross, He said that the thief would be with Him in paradise sometime in the future. But when would that be? Jesus said in John 6:39-40 that this would be on the last day. Which is the day of Judgement. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Martha also pointed out that it was on the last day that the believers would be raised in John 11:24. So, it was commonly known that believers would be raised at the last day, the day of judgement. John 5:28-26 says, "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Many people use the verses in Revelation to show that believers are raised straight away. But they miss the fact that those who are there in heaven are the people who were given white robes. And it is the martyrs who were given white robes. So, those in heaven are the martyrs. No one else.

Many believers interpret John 5:24 as saying that we will not face judgment at all. However, this misunderstanding arises from not recognizing the meaning of the Greek word "krisis." Krisis refers specifically to condemnation, not the absence of all judgment.
John 5:24 states: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
This same misunderstanding occurs in other passages where krisis is used, such as Romans 8:1 and John 3:18.

G2920 - krisis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G2920 - κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

www.blueletterbible.org

These verses emphasize that believers in Christ are not subject to condemnation or eternal judgment because they have passed from death to life through faith in Him. However, believers do face the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

The biblical evidence strongly supports that the dead are asleep, unconscious, and awaiting resurrection at Christ’s return. The hope of believers is not an immediate afterlife but the glorious resurrection when Christ returns.

 

[Aaron112]

The biblical evidence strongly supports that the dead are asleep, unconscious, and awaiting resurrection at Christ’s return. The hope of believers is not an immediate afterlife but the glorious resurrection when Christ returns.

Pretty good I think, accurate as far as it goes.
One thing perhaps to note - everyone who passes, (dies or 'sleeps' in the grave),
will be resurrected and to them , from Adam to Abraham to Moses thru today ,
when they are each and all resurrected, to them it will be just as if less than a second has passed, even though hundreds or thousands of years have passed where there is time on earth.

 

[1Tonne]

The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages....What Jesus said about Lazarus IS A CLEAR PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE. Why? Because Jesus gives us the explanation. This is what we want from Scripture....for Scripture to give us its own explanation. Therefore the hermenuetical principle Scriptura interpretur Scriptura doesn't apply. This is not rocket science.

Thank you. So, we do not need to use scripture to interpret Revelation 20 even though there are other scriptures to back up Christ's reign. By using your personal rules, we can interpret Revelation 20:4-5 simply as it is, since it is clear. We can take it at face value. You just said that if a scripture is clear, then it has its own explanation. Revelation 20:4-6, then does not need other scripture to interpret as they are very clear. Only the Martyrs come back and reign for 1000 years. There is no secret mystery about it.
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Revelation 20 is not a clear text nor does it gives it's own explanation.....therefore a parallel texts are needed for correct interpretation.

It seems very clear to me. If I decided to put my own figurative meaning on it, then it would become confusing. Read it as it is and there is no issue.

When do we interpret literally in the Book of Revelation? When St. John specifically tells us we can.

Can you show me in the bible where John says that we can only interpret what he says literally if he tells us?

No such interpretative key is found anywhere in Rev. 20.

Correct. This is because it is a clear passage that gives us its own explanation and it can be used to interpret other passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thes 4.
You can side with 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thes 4, obscure texts, and somehow rationalize it into a clear text.

I thought you said that you were done with this thread?

 

[1Tonne]

Thank you. So, we do not need to use scripture to interpret Revelation 20 even though there are other scriptures to back up Christ's reign. By using your personal rules, we can interpret Revelation 20:4-5 simply as it is, since it is clear. We can take it at face value. You just said that if a scripture is clear, then it has its own explanation. Revelation 20:4-6, then does not need other scripture to interpret as they are very clear. Only the Martyrs come back and reign for 1000 years. There is no secret mystery about it.
"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

It seems very clear to me. If I decided to put my own figurative meaning on it, then it would become confusing. Read it as it is and there is no issue.

Can you show me in the bible where John says that we can only interpret what he says literally if he tells us?

Correct. This is because it is a clear passage that gives us its own explanation and it can be used to interpret other passages such as 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thes 4.
You can side with 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thes 4, obscure texts, and somehow rationalize it into a clear text.

I thought you said that you were done with this thread?

Just for clarity, Ain't Zwinglian. has sent me a message and will not be responding. Which I understand. Blessing.

I was corresponding to Corey D not you. And I do care to correspond to you any more.

I want nothing more to do with you.

Therefore, I am accessing your account, hitting the Ignore Button and restricting you from contacting me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God has not told me this. Has he told you that?
Where can I find it in scripture?

Hi Corey - we don't go by feelings, even what we might say is "God's voice", we go by scripture. And scripture says that Paradise is heaven. To be caught up to it, it shows it is not on the earth.

Why do you believe paradise is heaven? Why can't paradise be on earth?

The scripture is quite plain in it's meaning.

Would you agree Paul had a vision?
John too had visions. He didn't physically go anywhere, but he was carried away.
Paradise, does not have to refer to heaven. Please see Revelation 2:7

Carried away means he left the earth, to be carried away means to leave where you are.

Yes, and the tree of life? Please see Revelation 22:1, 2

Rev 22:1-2 says the tree of life is in heaven. Rev 2:7 calls it the Paradise of God.

Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '​

Also we only have to look to the story of Lazarus in the bible. To see both heaven, and hell are real places where we have consciousness.

Luke 16:22-26 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'​

 

[FutureAndAHope]

This is what I found in the scripture where David went

1 Kings 2:10 So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David.
(Some bible versions use sleep) Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

There is no scripture that says David was resurrected before Christs Second Coming

Infact NT confirms where David is. If David is still buried a man after God's own heart, that's should tell us where everyone goes when they die the first death, until Jesus comes.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

1. Was King David a good man? Yes, a man after God's own heart, he sinned but repented
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? No
3. Where is King David now? dead and buried, waiting Christ's Second Coming, when those in Christ will come forth from their graves and meet Him in the air John 5:28-29 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

So if we look at it, there really should be no confusion on this issue, both Paul and Jesus said the same thing in regards to what happens when we die:

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Soul sleep is not supported by the Bible.

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."​

Some people will say but the Old Testament speaks of a sleep in death. But the OT does not specifically mean men sleep in death. If you look at the whole of the OT it speaks of a firey end to the wicked, in a prision or pit.

Isa 66:24 My people will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who turned against me. The worms there never die, the fire never stops burning, and the sight of those bodies will be disgusting to everyone.​

Psa 11:5-6 The LORD tests honest people, but despises those who are cruel and love violence. He will send fiery coals and flaming sulfur down on the wicked, and they will drink nothing but a scorching wind.​

As you can see with the following verse the dead king goes down into a fire.

Isa 30:33 Long ago the LORD got a place ready for burning the body of the dead king. The place for the fire is deep and wide, the wood is piled high, and the LORD will start the fire by breathing out flaming sulfur.​

The grave was also known as the pit. It was said to contain prisioners, in the lower parts of the earth. It is called a pit of destruction. We see that the earths core is full of fire, a apt holding cell for all who do evil.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.​

​

Pro 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:​

​

Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit​

​

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.​

​

Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.​

​

Eze 26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;​

​

The verses which speak of the dead knowing nothing, refer to them knowing nothing of what is happening on the earth, they are cut off from thier old lives.​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The story of Lazarus is a parable, meaning it’s not literal. Will we all be in Abraham’s bosom, I’d like to see that. Will a dip of a finger cool ones tongue while in torments of flames? No, this is obviously not literal.

Jesus spoke plainly on what happens when someone dies, which we should believe over a parable that is not to be taken literally.

Heaven Or Hell

Do you? I have been attending church for nearly 50 years. This keeps me in check. If I ever go down a tangent where I am understanding scripture wrong, they will point it out and I listen. This is why I asked you if you went to church. It can be pointless debating with someone who does not go...

www.christianforums.com

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Soul sleep is not supported by the Bible.

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."​

Some people will say but the Old Testament speaks of a sleep in death. But the OT does not specifically mean men sleep in death. If you look at the whole of the OT it speaks of a firey end to the wicked, in a prision or pit.

Isa 66:24 My people will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who turned against me. The worms there never die, the fire never stops burning, and the sight of those bodies will be disgusting to everyone.​

Psa 11:5-6 The LORD tests honest people, but despises those who are cruel and love violence. He will send fiery coals and flaming sulfur down on the wicked, and they will drink nothing but a scorching wind.​

As you can see with the following verse the dead king goes down into a fire.

Isa 30:33 Long ago the LORD got a place ready for burning the body of the dead king. The place for the fire is deep and wide, the wood is piled high, and the LORD will start the fire by breathing out flaming sulfur.​

The grave was also known as the pit. It was said to contain prisioners, in the lower parts of the earth. It is called a pit of destruction. We see that the earths core is full of fire, a apt holding cell for all who do evil.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.​

​

Pro 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:​

​

Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit​

​

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.​

​

Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.​

​

Eze 26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;​

​

The verses which speak of the dead knowing nothing, refer to them knowing nothing of what is happening on the earth, they are cut off from thier old lives.​

Yet, its what Jesus and Paul taught when people die, plainly, until the Resection, one for life and for death. Rev 20

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yet, its what Jesus and Paul taught when people die, plainly, until the Resection, one for life and for death. Rev 20

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Did you even read the Bible verses I gave? Jesus did not teach soul sleep.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did you even read the Bible verses I gave? Jesus did not teach soul sleep.

But yet Jesus taught plainly....

John 11: 11 These things He (Jesus) said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

I did read the verses, and they are in the context of the Second death, not the first death. Judgement is the last day John 12:48 and there are two choices- we either receive life at that time, when Jesus comes, the dead in Christ will rise first meaning they are not in heaven

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the first resurrection

Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

There is nothing that states when we die we are resurrected, it is only at the time of His Second Coming. Christ comes for the saved first, spends 1000 years with the saints which would be important so everyone understand why their loved ones who didn't make it are not there. After the 1000 years the resurrection for the sinners and that's when God will destroy Satan and all sinners and the penalty is death Rom 6:23 not eternal punishment


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

John 11: 11 These things He (jesus) said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

You can't make a doctrine out of one verse. Read what Jesus actually taught about death:

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."

 

[1Tonne]

Soul sleep is not supported by the Bible.

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."​

Some people will say but the Old Testament speaks of a sleep in death. But the OT does not specifically mean men sleep in death. If you look at the whole of the OT it speaks of a firey end to the wicked, in a prision or pit.

Isa 66:24 My people will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who turned against me. The worms there never die, the fire never stops burning, and the sight of those bodies will be disgusting to everyone.​

Psa 11:5-6 The LORD tests honest people, but despises those who are cruel and love violence. He will send fiery coals and flaming sulfur down on the wicked, and they will drink nothing but a scorching wind.​

As you can see with the following verse the dead king goes down into a fire.

Isa 30:33 Long ago the LORD got a place ready for burning the body of the dead king. The place for the fire is deep and wide, the wood is piled high, and the LORD will start the fire by breathing out flaming sulfur.​

The grave was also known as the pit. It was said to contain prisioners, in the lower parts of the earth. It is called a pit of destruction. We see that the earths core is full of fire, a apt holding cell for all who do evil.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.​

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Pro 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:​

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Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit​

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Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.​

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Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.​

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Eze 26:20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;​

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The verses which speak of the dead knowing nothing, refer to them knowing nothing of what is happening on the earth, they are cut off from thier old lives.​

Your argument relies heavily on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), but there are several reasons why this passage should not be taken as a literal description of the afterlife:

1. The Rich Man and Lazarus Is a Parable, Not a Literal Account
-Jesus often spoke in parables, using symbolic language to convey spiritual truths.
-This passage begins like other parables ("There was a certain rich man…"), and it follows the Jewish storytelling style of the time.
-If taken literally, this would mean that people in heaven and hell can have conversations across a chasm, that a single drop of water can relieve suffering, and that salvation is based on poverty instead of faith—none of which align with other biblical teachings.

2. The Parable’s Purpose Was About Heeding God’s Word, Not the State of the Dead
-The parable’s focus is on the rich man’s rejection of God’s revelation, not on the afterlife.
-The final verse (Luke 16:31) makes this clear: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."
-This was a direct rebuke to the Pharisees, who rejected Jesus despite His resurrection.

3. Scripture Clearly States That the Dead Are Unconscious
-Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 – "The dead know nothing… their love and their hate and their envy have already perished."
-Psalm 146:4 – "His breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish."
-If the dead were conscious, these verses would be false.

4. Judgment Happens at the Resurrection, Not Immediately After Death
-John 5:28-29 – "All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
-If people were already experiencing torment or bliss, there would be no need for a future resurrection and judgment.

5. The “Pit” Passages Describe Destruction, Not Conscious Torment
The verses you cited from Isaiah, Psalms, and Proverbs often use metaphorical language about destruction and judgment.
-Isaiah 66:24 describes the final fate of the wicked after judgment, not their current state.
-Many of these passages use "Sheol" (the grave) and "the pit" to describe death, but they never explicitly say that souls are conscious there.

6. Where Is the “Earth’s Core” Doctrine in the Bible?
You suggested that hell is located in the fiery core of the earth. However:
-The Bible never explicitly states this.
-Many of the “fire” passages (e.g., Isaiah 30:33) refer to judgment events on earth or the final lake of fire, not an ongoing torment immediately after death.

Your argument depends on a single parable taken literally, while ignoring the overwhelming biblical evidence that the dead sleep until the resurrection. The Bible consistently describes death as a state of unconsciousness, with hope placed in the resurrection at Christ’s return—not an immediate afterlife of torment or bliss.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Your argument relies heavily on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), but there are several reasons why this passage should not be taken as a literal description of the afterlife:

1. The Rich Man and Lazarus Is a Parable, Not a Literal Account
-Jesus often spoke in parables, using symbolic language to convey spiritual truths.
-This passage begins like other parables ("There was a certain rich man…"), and it follows the Jewish storytelling style of the time.
-If taken literally, this would mean that people in heaven and hell can have conversations across a chasm, that a single drop of water can relieve suffering, and that salvation is based on poverty instead of faith—none of which align with other biblical teachings.

2. The Parable’s Purpose Was About Heeding God’s Word, Not the State of the Dead
-The parable’s focus is on the rich man’s rejection of God’s revelation, not on the afterlife.
-The final verse (Luke 16:31) makes this clear: "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."
-This was a direct rebuke to the Pharisees, who rejected Jesus despite His resurrection.

3. Scripture Clearly States That the Dead Are Unconscious
-Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 – "The dead know nothing… their love and their hate and their envy have already perished."
-Psalm 146:4 – "His breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish."
-If the dead were conscious, these verses would be false.

4. Judgment Happens at the Resurrection, Not Immediately After Death
-John 5:28-29 – "All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
-If people were already experiencing torment or bliss, there would be no need for a future resurrection and judgment.

5. The “Pit” Passages Describe Destruction, Not Conscious Torment
The verses you cited from Isaiah, Psalms, and Proverbs often use metaphorical language about destruction and judgment.
-Isaiah 66:24 describes the final fate of the wicked after judgment, not their current state.
-Many of these passages use "Sheol" (the grave) and "the pit" to describe death, but they never explicitly say that souls are conscious there.

6. Where Is the “Earth’s Core” Doctrine in the Bible?
You suggested that hell is located in the fiery core of the earth. However:
-The Bible never explicitly states this.
-Many of the “fire” passages (e.g., Isaiah 30:33) refer to judgment events on earth or the final lake of fire, not an ongoing torment immediately after death.

Your argument depends on a single parable taken literally, while ignoring the overwhelming biblical evidence that the dead sleep until the resurrection. The Bible consistently describes death as a state of unconsciousness, with hope placed in the resurrection at Christ’s return—not an immediate afterlife of torment or bliss.

Jesus should be taken literally. There is also overwhelming evidence of immediate Judgment at the point of death from people who have been clinically dead, and revived, they report going to heaven, or hell "Immediately" after death as Jesus said.

Death and Hades is a real place, right now, but it will be thrown into the lake of fire at the final judgment. Souls are conscious.

Rev 20:13-14 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Why would Jesus use greek mythology, of the place ruled by darkness, where souls lived in torment.

Hades is typically described as a stern, just, and sometimes grim deity, but not necessarily evil. While he ruled over the underworld, he wasn't considered a villain in Greek mythology. His realm, often called the "Underworld" or "Hades," is where souls went after death, and he presided over their final resting place.​

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More on Hades and the under world:
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In Greek mythology, souls in the Underworld were generally considered to be conscious, but their existence there was often portrayed as shadowy and lacking vitality. Once a soul passed into the Underworld, it was believed to lose much of its former self. The souls were typically thought to be mere shadows of their former selves, devoid of the physical body and often existing in a state of indifference or apathy.

The souls of the dead were believed to dwell in various regions of the Underworld, with different conditions depending on their lives and deeds:

1. The Asphodel Meadows: Most souls, regardless of their actions in life, ended up here. This was a neutral place, where the souls wandered aimlessly and experienced a sense of indifference. These souls were often depicted as existing in a faded, insubstantial state, neither happy nor sad.
2. Elysium (The Elysian Fields): This was a paradisiacal place for souls who had led virtuous lives or were favored by the gods. The souls here could experience some form of happiness and were given a peaceful, pleasant afterlife.
3. Tartarus: A deep, dark pit reserved for the souls of the wicked and the damned. These souls were often subjected to eternal torment, but they too were still conscious of their suffering.
4. The River Styx and the Ferryman Charon: The souls had to cross the River Styx, the boundary between the living and the dead. Charon, the ferryman, would take them across, provided they had a coin for payment. This crossing signified the souls' passage into a new and permanent state of existence in the Underworld.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You can't make a doctrine out of one verse. Read what Jesus actually taught about death:

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."

I didn't make a doctrine out of one verse, but I believe what Jesus taught Trumps all understanding- as He is the way, the Truth, the life. If we can't believe His plain teachings, I don't know what to tell you. Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.

Its what Paul taught too, it truly cannot be made any plainer.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Taking a parable, which means it has a deeper meaning over the plain teachings of Jesus, Paul and John I do not believe is a good idea, but we are given free will. I guess we will have to agree to disagree but I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.