Heaven Or Hell

[1Tonne]

Do you?

I have been attending church for nearly 50 years. This keeps me in check. If I ever go down a tangent where I am understanding scripture wrong, they will point it out and I listen.
This is why I asked you if you went to church. It can be pointless debating with someone who does not go to church as often, they believe that they are 100% correct in all things, as they have no guidance apart from how they personally interpret the bible.

 

[CoreyD]

I never said the OT wasn’t relevant today.

Sorry for where I misunderstood you.
You said... That’s the OT. Jewish belief in the afterlife was gradual and evolved over time...
Can you please explain what you meant by that, if it is not as I understood it, please.

Good grief

Grief is never good, is it.

Also, Jesus wouldn’t have accepted soul sleep either.

Jesus spoke of the dead, as sleeping, so why do you think otherwise?

 

[Aaron112]

Jesus spoke of the dead, as sleeping, so why do you think otherwise?

Jesus is always right, yes. This is truth.
But the manmade doctrines of soul sleep or that accompany soul sleep thoughts are light years away from truth.

 

[CoreyD]

Here is what Jesus taught plainly….

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.

It’s the second death we need to fear

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Yes, thanks for these scriptural references. Even Jesus slept in death.
Why do you suppose there are persons saying otherwise?
I think its because what church leaders say have more authority than what the Bible says, in most cases.
Do you think that's the case?

 

[Aaron112]

Why do you suppose there are persons saying otherwise?
I think its because what church leaders say have more authority than what the Bible says, in most cases.
Do you think that's the case?

First clarify or verify - certainly you mean tradition (what men say) is put above God's Word and carries more weight than the Bible, thus condemning many, but the authority of the Bible is still supreme, unchallenged, in truth. Men just don't agree with the Bible, but with tradition.

 

[CoreyD]

King David selfishly and sinfully had Uriah killed. Good show there, David. And he also had a lot of good points. Either way we don't know where David is now, certainly not based on a sketchy interpretation and understanding of Acts 2:29 & 34.

Of course knowledge of the truth is not based on one or two scriptures.
Thank you for actually discussing this.
Did anyone go to heaven prior to Jesus's ascension to heaven?

And eternal punishment is supported in Scripture

I'm not sure if you are referring to figurative or literal eternal punishment.
Can you please clarify, thanks.

and good people do go to heaven, of course, because the only way a person can be good is by being made good, justified and sanctified by God.

As I have mentioned previously, with scriptural references.... some people are chosen to go to heaven, for the purpose of serving as kings, priests, and judges, but that is not all good people.

 

[CoreyD]

So then what are your rules for interpretation the 1000 reign of Christ as literal?

Its contrast to "a short time", or little while" when the Devil is loosed, gives good reason for seeing it as literal, as well as the purpose for the 1,000 year kingly and priestly service of Jesus and the Saints.

 

[CoreyD]

By what metric do we judge people as good or bad? No human has the credentials to make that determination. All we can infer from scriptures is that all people whom God pronounces good will be with him for eternity and all those he pronounces wicked will not.

So the question for us is do we trust His judgements?

I have only used the word 'good' as a reference to what has been taught traditionally, but those who are 'righteous' in God's eyes are promised everlasting life.
We both believe that, so there is no contention there.
What's being considered here, is, do all righteous people go to heaven.
The Bible does not teach that, which is contrary to what is traditionally taught.

 

[fhansen]

Of course knowledge of the truth is not based on one or two scriptures.
Thank you for actually discussing this.
Did anyone go to heaven prior to Jesus's ascension to heaven?

The afterlife's a bit more vague in the OT and I don't recall if the NT makes explicit the eternal destinies of any OT figures, or those who died before Jesus in any case.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, thanks for these scriptural references. Even Jesus slept in death.

Agreed

Why do you suppose there are persons saying otherwise?
I think its because what church leaders say have more authority than what the Bible says, in most cases.
Do you think that's the case?

Spiritual welfare. Jesus spoke Truth, the other side counterfeits every Truth for a lie to add confusion. People follow people instead of following God’s Word. They follow and do what tickles the ear. 2 Tim 4:3-4 following tradition over what God said Mat 15:3-14

 

[fhansen]

I'm not sure if you are referring to figurative or literal eternal punishment.
Can you please clarify, thanks.

Literal

As I have mentioned previously, with scriptural references.... some people are chosen to go to heaven, for the purpose of serving as kings, priests, and judges, but that is not all good people.

Anyone who goes to heaven does so because they've been made just by God-and then continued to walk that path of justice now with the Holy Spirit. It's all about becoming connected to the Vine. Without that vital union, we have no justice/righteousness.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Its contrast to "a short time", or little while" when the Devil is loosed, gives good reason for seeing it as literal, as well as the purpose for the 1,000 year kingly and priestly service of Jesus and the Saints.

Scripture interprets Scripture....where is the parallel text that states the 1,000 year reign of Christ is literal. No such understanding from the OT or NT. Show me a clear text form Scripture excluding Rev. 20 that there is a 1,000 reign. Please show me the error of my ways.

 

[CoreyD]

Thanks for sharing.

It is a bit of both really, salvation although by faith is accompanied by right living. This does not mean a sinner who repents can not be saved, but repentance is needful.

Yes. Repentance does lead to salvation.
What do you mean by a little bit of both?

Rom 2:6-8 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,​

Eternal life, yes.
Eternal life isn't heaven though, you would agree.

Joh 14:15-17 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth​

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

I'm not sure what is the purpose of these scriptures. Can you comment, please.

1. Was King David a good man?

David was a man who spent his time in God's presence, singing and writing songs. He also had a strong faith that saw Goliath defeated when everyone else had fear. But David, like all people, fell into a sin. But he was remorseful and repented before God.

1. When King David died, did he go to heaven?

Yes, David went to heaven.

1. Where is King David now?

He is in heaven.

Thank you for being the first to actually acknowledge the OP.
Can you please support your answers with scripture.
Remember, people don't usually want to hear an opinion, when they ask a Biblical question... honest hearted people, that is.

Thanks again for sharing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Can you please support your answers with scripture.

Yes, David went to heaven.

1. Where is King David now?

He is in heaven.

This is what I found in the scripture where David went

1 Kings 2:10 So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David.
(Some bible versions use sleep) Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

There is no scripture that says David was resurrected before Christs Second Coming

Infact NT confirms where David is. If David is still buried a man after God's own heart, that's should tell us where everyone goes when they die the first death, until Jesus comes.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

1. Was King David a good man? Yes, a man after God's own heart, he sinned but repented
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? No
3. Where is King David now? dead and buried, waiting Christ's Second Coming, when those in Christ will come forth from their graves and meet Him in the air John 5:28-29 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

So if we look at it, there really should be no confusion on this issue, both Paul and Jesus said the same thing in regards to what happens when we die:

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

[CoreyD]

Here is an apologetic that I have copied and kept that may go towards your discussion:

What about those who never heard about Christ? Are they all going to hell?
We also know that there are going to be many people in heaven who never heard about Jesus. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab the gentile prostitute. They were hundreds of years before him, but in humility, they put their faith in God. Now, Moses was a murderer and Abraham lied about his wife saying that she was his sister. They were not good. But they put their faith in God and God accounted it to them as righteousness. They're going to be in heaven because God loves them and applies the death of his son to their life. So, if people have never heard of Jesus but they put their faith in God the Creator and honour Him, God will be fair.

Thanks for this post.
It is quite in line with the OP, which is showing this traditional view to be in error.
People are not taken to heaven on the basis that they love God.

The church teaches that all people will go to heaven once they meet God's righteous standards.
The Bible on the other hand teaches that people go to heaven only if they are in the kingdom covenant. Luke 22:28-30

It's important that people learn this truth... not only because it honors God, whose will and purpose is to be known, in order to be counted as doing God's will Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 24:14; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, but it also holds out a real hope of the promises of God. Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10; Ephesians 1:10

 

[CoreyD]

Literal

Where in the Bible do we find support for the wicked being literally punished everlastingly, and how does that happen... in other words, how are they punished eternally, since they have to be alive for that to happen?

Anyone who goes to heaven does so because they've been made just by God-and then continued to walk that path of justice now with the Holy Spirit. It's all about becoming connected to the Vine. Without that vital union, we have no justice/righteousness.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.
However, as I mentioned to a previous poster, honest hearted people are not interested in people opening their mouth and giving an answer. They are more interested in people opening the Bible, and supplying an answer.
This thread invites the latter.
So, if you can supply scriptures in support of what you say, that would be most appreciated.

 

[CoreyD]

No need to be so hostile. We are simply having a conversation.
Did you miss my last post?
"Your examples (pastoral qualifications, abortion) prove my point. While the Bible may not explicitly state those things in one sentence, it provides clear teachings that together establish them. (Thanks for proving my point) Likewise, Revelation 20 fits within the broader biblical picture of a future reign of Christ on earth (Daniel 7, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 2)." So, Scripture interprets scripture.

Three is for emphasis. Nicely explained.

 

[CoreyD]

Jesus is always right, yes. This is truth.
But the manmade doctrines of soul sleep or that accompany soul sleep thoughts are light years away from truth.

Perhaps I am not familiar with "the manmade doctrines of soul sleep".
Can you please inform me of what that doctrine says?

 

[Aaron112]

Perhaps I am not familiar with "the manmade doctrines of soul sleep".
Can you please inform me of what that doctrine says?

No.
It is from a false gospel, and is practically everything ever posted about soul sleep, both for or against it. I don't dwell on it, study it, use it, or debate about it.

 

[fhansen]

By what metric do we judge people as good or bad? No human has the credentials to make that determination. All we can infer from scriptures is that all people whom God pronounces good will be with him for eternity and all those he pronounces wicked will not.

So the question for us is do we trust His judgements?

And yet God doesn't leave us ignorant, either. He gives us the commandments, the parable of the Good Samaritan, Matthew 25:31-46, identifies the kinds of deeds which will earn us a death, etc