Heaven Or Hell

[FutureAndAHope]

I didn't make a doctrine out of one verse, but I believe what Jesus taught Trumps all understanding- as He is the way, the Truth, the life. If we can't believe His plain teachings, I don't know what to tell you. Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.

Its what Paul taught too

1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. ESV

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

I pray God opens your eyes to the truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I pray God opens your eyes to the truth.

You accused me of making a doctrine out of one verse, yet when I showed you three different scriptures, all very plain harmonizing with what Christ taught, was hoping it would at the least be acknowledged. Your response is not really an argument against the plain teachings of Jesus, Paul and John, but as for your sentiments, I wish the same for you.

 

[1Tonne]

Jesus should be taken literally.

Definition of a parable "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

There is also overwhelming evidence of immediate Judgment at the point of death from people who have been clinically dead, and revived, they report going to heaven, or hell "Immediately" after death as Jesus said.

I also had one of these events. I died and went through Judgement Day. This is how I became a Christian 31 years ago. But I know that God was showing me something in the hope that I would turn from my evil ways. This does not mean that we will be judged straight away. It was like a warning. And I am so thankful for God showing me this.

Jesus should be taken literally. There is also overwhelming evidence of immediate Judgment at the point of death from people who have been clinically dead, and revived, they report going to heaven, or hell "Immediately" after death as Jesus said.

Death and Hades is a real place, right now, but it will be thrown into the lake of fire at the final judgment. Souls are conscious.

Rev 20:13-14 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Why would Jesus use greek mythology, of the place ruled by darkness, where souls lived in torment.

Hades is typically described as a stern, just, and sometimes grim deity, but not necessarily evil. While he ruled over the underworld, he wasn't considered a villain in Greek mythology. His realm, often called the "Underworld" or "Hades," is where souls went after death, and he presided over their final resting place.​

​

More on Hades and the under world:​

​

In Greek mythology, souls in the Underworld were generally considered to be conscious, but their existence there was often portrayed as shadowy and lacking vitality. Once a soul passed into the Underworld, it was believed to lose much of its former self. The souls were typically thought to be mere shadows of their former selves, devoid of the physical body and often existing in a state of indifference or apathy.

The souls of the dead were believed to dwell in various regions of the Underworld, with different conditions depending on their lives and deeds:

1. The Asphodel Meadows: Most souls, regardless of their actions in life, ended up here. This was a neutral place, where the souls wandered aimlessly and experienced a sense of indifference. These souls were often depicted as existing in a faded, insubstantial state, neither happy nor sad.
2. Elysium (The Elysian Fields): This was a paradisiacal place for souls who had led virtuous lives or were favored by the gods. The souls here could experience some form of happiness and were given a peaceful, pleasant afterlife.
3. Tartarus: A deep, dark pit reserved for the souls of the wicked and the damned. These souls were often subjected to eternal torment, but they too were still conscious of their suffering.
4. The River Styx and the Ferryman Charon: The souls had to cross the River Styx, the boundary between the living and the dead. Charon, the ferryman, would take them across, provided they had a coin for payment. This crossing signified the souls' passage into a new and permanent state of existence in the Underworld.

1. The Rich Man and Lazarus Should Not Be Taken Literally
You say Jesus should be taken literally, but even in His parables, He used symbolic language. If you take Luke 16 literally, then:
-The saved and the lost can talk across a chasm.
-A single drop of water can bring relief from hellfire.
-The rich are condemned just for being rich, and the poor are saved just for being poor.

Since these details contradict the rest of Scripture, this parable must be a symbolic lesson about heeding God's Word, not a doctrinal statement on the afterlife.

2. Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) Are Not Biblical Authority
-NDEs are subjective, influenced by culture, beliefs, and brain activity. Muslims see Muhammad, Hindus see their gods, and Christians see heaven or hell. This proves nothing except that experiences differ based on expectations.
-Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." Those revived from clinical death have not yet reached final judgment.
-If we rely on NDEs, we open the door to countless conflicting spiritual claims. Instead, we should trust Scripture.

3. Death and Hades Are Not Conscious Realms of Torment
Revelation 20:13-14 states that Death and Hades give up their dead and are then thrown into the lake of fire. If Hades is already a place of fiery torment, why is it later cast into the fire?
-Hades (Greek) and Sheol (Hebrew) both refer to the grave or the state of the dead, not a conscious underworld.
-The fact that “death” itself is cast into the lake of fire proves that Hades is not a permanent place of torment but a temporary holding place before final judgment.

4. Jesus Did Not Borrow from Greek Mythology
-The term "Hades" in Greek simply meant "the unseen realm" or "the grave." The New Testament sometimes uses it interchangeably with Sheol.
-The idea that Jesus adopted Greek mythology contradicts His Jewish context. The Old Testament never teaches Hades as a place of ongoing torment.
-Instead, Jesus and the apostles taught resurrection (John 5:28-29), not immediate consciousness in Hades.

5. The Bible Teaches Resurrection, Not Immediate Judgment
-John 11:11-14 – Jesus calls death sleep, not an entry into immediate torment or bliss.
-1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – The dead in Christ rise at His coming, not before.
-Revelation 20:5 – "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

If souls are immediately judged and sent to heaven or hell, why does the Bible emphasize resurrection at Christ’s return?

Your view relies on one parable, subjective NDEs, and a misunderstanding of biblical terms like Hades. Meanwhile, the Bible consistently describes death as sleep and places final judgment at the resurrection.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Many Christians think that we automatically go to heaven. Originally, I was uncertain and so I did not have an opinion but as time has gone on, I am beginning to think more and more that we do sleep in the grave and then on the day of Judgement we are awakened. A good verse that shows this is Daniel 12:1-2. It speaks of when the books are opened at the Day of Judgement and people who are asleep in the graves will awake. Some will be given life and some death.
Here are some interesting points:

1. Death is Consistently Called "Sleep" in Scripture
The Bible repeatedly refers to death as "sleep," implying unconsciousness:
-Daniel 12:2 – "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
-John 11:11-14 – Jesus said of Lazarus, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." Then Jesus clarified, "Lazarus has died." If Lazarus was conscious in heaven or hell, why would Jesus equate his state with sleep?
-Acts 7:60 – When Stephen was martyred, it says, "he fell asleep," rather than suggesting he immediately went to heaven.

Luk e 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus told the thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise, not that he would fall asleep.

Stephen as he was dying looked up and saw Jesus seated at the right hand of God.

2. The Dead Have No Consciousness
Scripture teaches that the dead are not aware or active in any way:
-Ecclesiastes 9:5 – "The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." If the dead were conscious in heaven or hell, this would not be true.

The dead know nothing of their former lives.

-Psalm 146:4 – "When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." There is no ongoing thought process after death.

The wicked have plan for their lives in "this life", those plans perish.

Isa 66:24 My people will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who turned against me. The worms there never die, the fire never stops burning, and the sight of those bodies will be disgusting to everyone.​

Psa 11:5-6 The LORD tests honest people, but despises those who are cruel and love violence. He will send fiery coals and flaming sulfur down on the wicked, and they will drink nothing but a scorching wind.​

Isa 30:33 Long ago the LORD got a place ready for burning the body of the dead king. The place for the fire is deep and wide, the wood is piled high, and the LORD will start the fire by breathing out flaming sulfur.​

The scripture above states the LORD long ago prepared a place for those who die.

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.​

Note the above passage says those prisoners in the pit, will be visited at the end day.

-Isaiah 38:18-19 – Hezekiah says, "For Sheol does not thank you, death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." If believers immediately went to heaven, they would surely be praising God.

This is talking about unbelievers not praising God.

3. Resurrection, Not Immediate Heaven or Hell, Is the Hope of Believers
The Bible consistently teaches that believers receive eternal life at the resurrection, not at the moment of death:
-1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." This shows that the dead remain asleep until the resurrection. (This is the last day resurrection of every person spoken of by Jesus in John 6:39-40. This includes those who are alive and dead, believers and non-believers, to judgment. NOTE: This verse is not a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture verse)

4. Jesus Did Not Teach Immediate Consciousness After Death
Some argue that Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross contradict soul sleep, but the misunderstanding comes from punctuation:
-Luke 23:43 – Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." However, Greek manuscripts have no punctuation. Punctuation was added hundreds of years later. So, punctuation is not God inspired. If the comma is move after the word "today", it then reads as, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise," So, on the day that Jesus was hung on the cross, He said that the thief would be with Him in paradise sometime in the future. But when would that be? Jesus said in John 6:39-40 that this would be on the last day. Which is the day of Judgement. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Martha also pointed out that it was on the last day that the believers would be raised in John 11:24. So, it was commonly known that believers would be raised at the last day, the day of judgement. John 5:28-26 says, "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Jesus did teach "IMMEDIATE" consciousness.

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."​

The man dies and went to place of honor beside Abraham. The other man died and wen to to hell. You said this scripture is a parabel because Jesus taught that good deeds, or lack of it lead to life, not faith. But what do you think of this:

Mat 25:32-40 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'​

Many people use the verses in Revelation to show that believers are raised straight away. But they miss the fact that those who are there in heaven are the people who were given white robes. And it is the martyrs who were given white robes. So, those in heaven are the martyrs. No one else.

Looks like evidence to me that the dead have consciousness. Also how are the saints signing in heaven, if they are asleep:


Rev 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

They will reign on the earth "future" tense. But they are alive.

Many believers interpret John 5:24 as saying that we will not face judgment at all. However, this misunderstanding arises from not recognizing the meaning of the Greek word "krisis." Krisis refers specifically to condemnation, not the absence of all judgment.
John 5:24 states: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
This same misunderstanding occurs in other passages where krisis is used, such as Romans 8:1 and John 3:18.

G2920 - krisis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G2920 - κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

www.blueletterbible.org

These verses emphasize that believers in Christ are not subject to condemnation or eternal judgment because they have passed from death to life through faith in Him. However, believers do face the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

The biblical evidence strongly supports that the dead are asleep, unconscious, and awaiting resurrection at Christ’s return. The hope of believers is not an immediate afterlife but the glorious resurrection when Christ returns.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

2. Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) Are Not Biblical Authority
-NDEs are subjective, influenced by culture, beliefs, and brain activity. Muslims see Muhammad, Hindus see their gods, and Christians see heaven or hell. This proves nothing except that experiences differ based on expectations.
-Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." Those revived from clinical death have not yet reached final judgment.
-If we rely on NDEs, we open the door to countless conflicting spiritual claims. Instead, we should trust Scripture.

This is not the reality of NDE's they are real experiences. People sometimes misunderstand what happened to them, because they filter it through their religious knowledge. All NDEs that I have seen are a blaring testament to the reality of heaven and hell. ALthough there are a lot of fake ones on YouTube at the moment because some YouTubers noticed they were popular.

 

[Aaron112]

If we rely on NDEs, we open the door to countless conflicting spiritual claims. Instead, we should trust Scripture.

If anyone believes the lies revealed by nde, they don't have to rely on it, to be on the road to destruction. The source is not honest, not a good thing from above. They have been exposed.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I also had one of these events. I died and went through Judgement Day. This is how I became a Christian 31 years ago. But I know that God was showing me something in the hope that I would turn from my evil ways. This does not mean that we will be judged straight away. It was like a warning. And I am so thankful for God showing me this.

Open your heart to the truth. You died and were conscious, God showed you your life. Yet you obviously still had some life to live.

WHen people die God already knows their judgment. There is no reason to put them to sleep. Jesus clearly taught immediate judgment in fire. But the place of the dead, will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. And those in heaven will eventually rule on the earth.

Rev 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."​

 

[1Tonne]

Luk e 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus told the thief he would be with Jesus in Paradise, not that he would fall asleep.

Stephen as he was dying looked up and saw Jesus seated at the right hand of God.



The dead know nothing of their former lives.



The wicked have plan for their lives in "this life", those plans perish.

Isa 66:24 My people will go out and look at the dead bodies of those who turned against me. The worms there never die, the fire never stops burning, and the sight of those bodies will be disgusting to everyone.​

Psa 11:5-6 The LORD tests honest people, but despises those who are cruel and love violence. He will send fiery coals and flaming sulfur down on the wicked, and they will drink nothing but a scorching wind.​

Isa 30:33 Long ago the LORD got a place ready for burning the body of the dead king. The place for the fire is deep and wide, the wood is piled high, and the LORD will start the fire by breathing out flaming sulfur.​

The scripture above states the LORD long ago prepared a place for those who die.

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.​

Note the above passage says those prisoners in the pit, will be visited at the end day.


This is talking about unbelievers not praising God.


Jesus did teach "IMMEDIATE" consciousness.

Luke 16:19-31 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire." Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over." But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place." Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that." Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God." So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."​

The man dies and went to place of honor beside Abraham. The other man died and wen to to hell. You said this scripture is a parabel because Jesus taught that good deeds, or lack of it lead to life, not faith. But what do you think of this:

Mat 25:32-40 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'​

Looks like evidence to me that the dead have consciousness. Also how are the saints signing in heaven, if they are asleep:


Rev 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

They will reign on the earth "future" tense. But they are alive.

1. The Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43) – A Matter of Punctuation (Please make sure you read my previous post as we have gone over this, and it is pretty plain and simple)
You reference Jesus’ words to the thief:
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

However, the original Greek had no punctuation. The comma was added later by translators. A more accurate reading, consistent with the rest of Scripture, is: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
-Jesus Himself did not go to Paradise that day. He was buried and resurrected on the third day (John 20:17 – "I have not yet ascended to My Father.").
-The thief will be in Paradise after the resurrection, not immediately upon death.

2. Stephen Seeing Jesus (Acts 7:55-56)
Stephen saw a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand while still alive—before his death. This does not indicate what happens after death.

3. The Dead Are Not Aware of Life on Earth
Ecclesiastes 9:5 – "The dead know nothing."
Psalm 146:4 – "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
These verses clearly describe death as unconsciousness. The Bible repeatedly calls death sleep (John 11:11-14; Daniel 12:2; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16).

4. The Rich Man and Lazarus – A Parable, Not a Literal Event
-This passage does not describe actual events but uses Jewish storytelling techniques to illustrate a moral lesson.
-It contradicts other clear teachings of Scripture about death and resurrection.
-If taken literally, it would mean:

• People in torment and paradise can talk across a great gulf.
• A single drop of water could relieve suffering in hell.
• The rich are condemned simply for being rich, and the poor are saved simply for being poor—which is not biblical.

-Jesus used this story to emphasize belief in the Scriptures (Moses and the Prophets), not to describe the afterlife.

5. The Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matthew 25:32-40)
This passage does not support immediate consciousness after death. It describes a future judgment, when the Son of Man returns (verse 31). The dead are judged at this time, not before.

6. Revelation 5:9-10 – Saints Singing in Heaven?
Martyrs—those who have shed their blood for Christ—are an exception. Revelation 20:4-6 states that they partake in the first resurrection and reign with Christ. Because they are resurrected early, they do not face the second death and are in heaven now.

7. Death and Hades Cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14)
-If Hades is a literal place of torment, why is it later destroyed in the lake of fire?
-This shows that Hades (the grave) is temporary and will no longer exist after the final judgment.

-The Bible consistently teaches that death is a sleep, with consciousness restored only at the resurrection.
-Verses that seem to suggest immediate consciousness are either mistranslated, symbolic, or taken out of context.
-The final resurrection, not an immediate afterlife, is the hope of believers (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

By grounding our doctrine in clear and consistent biblical teaching—rather than parables, symbolic visions, or mistranslations—it becomes evident that the Bible teaches soul sleep for most believers, with the exception of the martyrs who reign with Christ.

 

[1Tonne]

This is not the reality of NDE's they are real experiences. People sometimes misunderstand what happened to them, because they filter it through their religious knowledge. All NDEs that I have seen are a blaring testament to the reality of heaven and hell. ALthough there are a lot of fake ones on YouTube at the moment because some YouTubers noticed they were popular.

I would say that many on YouTube are fakes. Nearly all on YouTube are of heaven or hell. I do not see any videos of people going through the judgment. Which I did.
I normally do not mention my experience as it is not the word of God. It is my personal experience that brought me to God. Before I came to Christ, I would scoff at Christians and I did things that were very, very bad. (To the point that I should have a life sentence in jail.) But God changed me. I do not believe that this was just a chemical reaction either. There were things that I saw, felt, heard and understood that were too amazing to describe.
So, I know I died, and I do not mind if people do not believe me, or if they think it was a chemical reaction happening in my brain. If it was a chemical reaction or a vision, then God gave it to me so that I would turn from my evil ways and honour Him.
Now I believe without a doubt.

 

[Aaron112]

Jesus used this story to emphasize belief in the Scriptures

No. Close thru all the post - good. But this was Jesus using the false teachers own false beliefs to expose their own false beliefs (in the bosom, etc). False christiandom falsely claimed it as a 'true' story about things, but wrongly so, as the things are false, contrary to all Scripture, and opposed to Jesus (yet accepted and acceptable to false christianity).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

1. The Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43) – A Matter of Punctuation (Please make sure you read my previous post as we have gone over this, and it is pretty plain and simple)
You reference Jesus’ words to the thief:
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

However, the original Greek had no punctuation. The comma was added later by translators. A more accurate reading, consistent with the rest of Scripture, is: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
-Jesus Himself did not go to Paradise that day. He was buried and resurrected on the third day (John 20:17 – "I have not yet ascended to My Father.").
-The thief will be in Paradise after the resurrection, not immediately upon death.

Amen!

 

[fhansen]

No need and no help to rationalize. Revelation is quite different and more rare than reason. And revelation from above is true. Reason is an enemy daily.

Yet, no one would be capable of receiving revelation if not for the human faculty of reason. And while revelation and the understanding of it is usually beyond reason, it never contradicts reason. And while most believers claim to be gifted with right understanding, they nonetheless often disagree with others making the same claim. The truth is that many are just arriving at and proclaiming intellectual concepts, derived from reason IOW, despite their claims to be Spirit-led.

 

[CoreyD]

There is no dichotomy between the righteous and the saints, the saint are righteous the righteous are saints.

The heirs of the kingdom are righteous.
However, the righteous are not all heirs of the kingdom.
For example, men of faith, mentioned by the apostle Paul, at Hebrews 11, all died, and were not raised to heaven, as you agreed.

At 1 Corinthians 15, we read...

• Verse 20 - But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
• Verse 23 - But each in the own order: Christ the firstfruit, then those of Christ at His coming,

At Romans 8:22, 23, we read...

• 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
• 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

At Revelation 14:4, we read...

• 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

The firstfruits are the adopted sons of God, redeemed from among mankind, to God.
Jesus is the first of the firstfruits. Afterward, those who belong to Christ. Who are those?

Luke 22:28-30
28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

These are the ones Jesus made a covenant with, to grant them ruling authority in the kingdom.
This choosing started from Jesus 12 apostles, and continue from there. Please read Luke 12:32, and Matthew 11:12
These ones prove themselves faithful to the end, sticking with their Lord through the greatest of trials. Revelation 14:4

So, from Jesus apostles, onward, the firstfruits to God - adopted sons, were being chosen for the kingdom, to rule, and, to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
Is there a limit?

Revelation 7:2-4
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

The Bible tells us, there is a limit, and after all, it's basic common sense, which any 5 year old child can understand - everyone cannot be a king, because what is a king with no subjects?
Out of the tribes of Israel, which Jesus said those in the kingdom will judge, there are chosen a total of 144,000.

This is few - a small flock (Luke 12:32) out of a multitude (Revelation 7:9), along with the 12 tribes.
So there is a limit to the number of person who go to heaven to rule with Christ.

In summary...
The firstfruits are chosen to be adopted sons of God Romans 8:15; Romans 8:23; Galatians 4:1-7; Ephesians 1:5, - heirs of the kingdom Galatians 3:29; Daniel 7:27
This choosing starts with the 12 apostles of Christ.
The number of kingdom heirs is limited. They rule as kings and judge people. They also serve as priests. Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 20:6

Saints or righteous are anyone who is saved, There is only two groups, wheat and tares, saved and lost and there are only two resurrections. The first for the saved, the dead in Christ and those living at the time will meet Him in the air 1 Thes 4:16-17

Thank you for sharing your understanding.

There are only two resurrections, yes. What is the first, and what is the second?
The first is mentioned at Revelation 20:4, 6. This is, to quote the scripture... those who will "reign with Christ a thousand years... Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years."

So, since the first is all those who rule with Christ, and cannot die, since they have immortality... what's the second?
The Bible says there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Acts 24:15
Among the unrighteous, will be people who did not know God. Matthew 12:41, 42; Matthew 10:15; Luke 10:14, 15

and there is no scripture thats says the 1000 years is on earth and I believe this will be a huge deception, because the devil will impersonate Christ on earth and come as a angel of light deceiving the whole world or the majority,

Opinionated, but the scriptures do address this.

• First. The kingdom is in heaven - Matthew uses the expression Kingdom of the heaven 32 times. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27, presents the receiving of kingdom power in heaven. Jesus promises places in heaven for those who will rule with him. John 14:1-4. Those with the heavenly hope, expected to be in heaven forever. 2 Corinthians 5:1-3; Philippians 3:20. The Bible refers to Heavenly Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1. etc.
• Second. The Devil is bound for the 1,000 years "o that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time." So during Jesus 1,000 year reign, the Devil is completely restrained from any activity at all.

So, your fears are unfounded really. They are only imaginative.
The Bible says the kingdom rules over the earth. Revelation 5:10.
Some translations use the word "on", but it makes no difference, as the earth is part of the kingdom's domain.
However, persons cannot change the Greek word epi.
Nor can the scriptures above be challenged.

Christ feet does not touch the ground at His Second Coming and He says He has prepared a place for those where He is (in heaven) John 14:3 After the 1000 years Judgement will come for those who are condemned and lost. All sinners including Satan will be destroyed

Agreed.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Thank you for sharing your understanding.
Any comments on this scripture.

Verse please.

I really appreciate that I can have a conversation with someone interested in a scriptural discussion.
Really encouraging.

I don't recall you providing a verse to support your view that all the righteous are Saints, so could you please do so.
I don't mind going first.

Romans 8:19-25
All creation that wait in earnest for the revealing of the sons of God is referred distinctly from the adopted sons of God - the firstfruits.
Along with that, please carefully consider what is said above.

Now, can you oblige me, and please provide a verse to support your view that all the righteous are Saints?

Christ rules the Kingdom, not man

The Saints are not men and women, but they are from among mankind. Revelation 14:4; Revelation 5:9
They rule as well, with Christ for the thousand years. Daniel 7:27; Revelation 20:4, 6
You quoted these scriptures, didn't you.

Revelation 21 is about after the 1000 years with Christ and after the Judgement of the condemned when He will wipe away all tears and makes a New Heaven and New Earth. Revelation is based on repeat and enlarge it is not in chronological order

According to the text, the New Jerusalem is "coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband".
Since the New Jerusalem (the 144,000 Saints) is prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband - the Christ, what are you seeing?
Here's what I am seeing.

A marriage is taking place. Which means that the latter part of this verse - from verse 7 is fulfilled.
Please read Revelation 19:6-9
I'm only quoting part...

7 ...for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ”...

As, you rightly said, Revelation is not written in chronological order, so while Revelation 21:1, 2 refers to the initializing of the new heavens - New Jerusalem (the bride - 144,000 Saints), and her husband (the lamb - the Christ), and the new earth - the inhabitants that occupy the earth at that time, these verses do not have to be after the 1,000 years.

This is proven by the angel's words a couple Chapters previous.
Revelation 21:9-11

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.

Notice the same expression descending out of heaven from God is used.
So, contrary to popular belief, this does not refer to "coming down to earth", as so many assert.
As we saw in Chapter 21, this relates to the bride being presented to her husband.... and isn't that the way marriages take place.
The father presents the bride to her husband.

It would not be worth our while to argue about whether it is during or after the 1,000 years, after we both agreed Revelation is not written in chronological order.
So, I'll leave that one.

We can agree that death, the last enemy is no more after Jesus hand the kingdom over to God, at the end of the 1,000 years. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 21:3-5

Christ says the New Kingdom will be on the earth (after the 1000 years) after all sin and sinners are destroyed and He brings down the New Jeresalum

Verse?

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. .

Do you see anything in that verse saying "the New Kingdom will be on the earth"?
I don't see it. Can you please point out the exact words.
They aren't there, are they. They are only in the minds of persons.

The Saints do not come to earth. Please refer to the passages I referenced earlier.
Here they are again:
Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 5:3; Matthew 5:10; Matthew 5:19, 20; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 8:11; Matthew 10:7; Matthew 11:11, 12; Matthew 13:11; Matthew 13:24; Matthew 13:31-33; Matthew 13:44-47, 52; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:1-5; Matthew 18:23; Matthew 19:12-14, 23; Matthew 20:1; Matthew 22:2; Matthew 23:13; Matthew 25:1; 2 Corinthians 5:1-3; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1

The kingdom - that is, government (Isaiah 9:6, 7), or rulership (Daniel 7:13, 14) the bride (144,000 Saints Daniel 7:27; Revelation 14:1), and Christ the king, rules from heaven. It is a heavenly kingdom, and its citizens live in heaven (Philippians 3:20).
They do not come to earth.
God does not have to be on earth, in order to be with mankind.

 

[Clare73]

Yet, no one would be capable of receiving revelation if not for the human faculty of reason. And while revelation and the understanding of it is usually beyond reason, it never contradicts reason. And while most believers claim to be gifted with right understanding, they nonetheless often disagree with others making the same claim.

Does the imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-16, 17) to all mankind (Ro 5:18-19) contradict human reason?

 

[CoreyD]

1. The Thief on the Cross (Luke 23:43) – A Matter of Punctuation (Please make sure you read my previous post as we have gone over this, and it is pretty plain and simple)
You reference Jesus’ words to the thief:
"Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

However, the original Greek had no punctuation. The comma was added later by translators. A more accurate reading, consistent with the rest of Scripture, is: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
-Jesus Himself did not go to Paradise that day. He was buried and resurrected on the third day (John 20:17 – "I have not yet ascended to My Father.").
-The thief will be in Paradise after the resurrection, not immediately upon death.

2. Stephen Seeing Jesus (Acts 7:55-56)
Stephen saw a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand while still alive—before his death. This does not indicate what happens after death.

3. The Dead Are Not Aware of Life on Earth
Ecclesiastes 9:5 – "The dead know nothing."
Psalm 146:4 – "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
These verses clearly describe death as unconsciousness. The Bible repeatedly calls death sleep (John 11:11-14; Daniel 12:2; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16).

4. The Rich Man and Lazarus – A Parable, Not a Literal Event
-This passage does not describe actual events but uses Jewish storytelling techniques to illustrate a moral lesson.
-It contradicts other clear teachings of Scripture about death and resurrection.
-If taken literally, it would mean:

• People in torment and paradise can talk across a great gulf.
• A single drop of water could relieve suffering in hell.
• The rich are condemned simply for being rich, and the poor are saved simply for being poor—which is not biblical.

-Jesus used this story to emphasize belief in the Scriptures (Moses and the Prophets), not to describe the afterlife.

5. The Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matthew 25:32-40)
This passage does not support immediate consciousness after death. It describes a future judgment, when the Son of Man returns (verse 31). The dead are judged at this time, not before.

6. Revelation 5:9-10 – Saints Singing in Heaven?
Martyrs—those who have shed their blood for Christ—are an exception. Revelation 20:4-6 states that they partake in the first resurrection and reign with Christ. Because they are resurrected early, they do not face the second death and are in heaven now.

7. Death and Hades Cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14)
-If Hades is a literal place of torment, why is it later destroyed in the lake of fire?
-This shows that Hades (the grave) is temporary and will no longer exist after the final judgment.

-The Bible consistently teaches that death is a sleep, with consciousness restored only at the resurrection.
-Verses that seem to suggest immediate consciousness are either mistranslated, symbolic, or taken out of context.
-The final resurrection, not an immediate afterlife, is the hope of believers (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

By grounding our doctrine in clear and consistent biblical teaching—rather than parables, symbolic visions, or mistranslations—it becomes evident that the Bible teaches soul sleep for most believers, with the exception of the martyrs who reign with Christ.

We agree on so many things. I'm amazed.
It's not often I meet someone who sees so clearly these simple truths.
No wonder you are so zealous about preaching the Gospel. It's so badly needed, even among the thousands of Christian denominations.

The immortal soul doctrine, which is obviously not from God, but his adversary is primarily what has corrupted church doctrine.

 

[Aaron112]

Yet, no one would be capable of receiving revelation if not for the human faculty of reason.

This is a contradiction contrary to the definition and experience of Yahweh's Revelation to those He Delights in.
The human faculty of reason is flesh, born of the flesh, and useless.

 

[fhansen]

This is a contradiction contrary to the definition and experience of Yahweh's Revelation to those He Delights in.
The human faculty of reason is flesh, born of the flesh, and useless.

Definition and experience. Right. Self-serving ignorance

 

[fhansen]

Does the imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:12-16, 17) to all mankind (Ro 5:18-19) contradict human reason?

No, correctly understood they are quite in line with what a believer comes to know of God's plan, mercy, and love.

 

[Clare73]

This is a contradiction contrary to the definition and experience of Yahweh's Revelation to those He Delights in.
The human faculty of reason is flesh, born of the flesh, and useless.

Can animals receive/understand revelation?. . .Why not?

 

[CoreyD]

Sorry, I have not been following the whole thread. I have been reading bits and pieces, but I have been having another debate within this thread.
I noticed the words "soul sleep". If this is what the thread has turned to, may I put my 2 cents in. (If I am not on topic, then ignore this post)

Many Christians think that we automatically go to heaven. Originally, I was uncertain and so I did not have an opinion but as time has gone on, I am beginning to think more and more that we do sleep in the grave and then on the day of Judgement we are awakened. A good verse that shows this is Daniel 12:1-2. It speaks of when the books are opened at the Day of Judgement and people who are asleep in the graves will awake. Some will be given life and some death.
Here are some interesting points:

1. Death is Consistently Called "Sleep" in Scripture
The Bible repeatedly refers to death as "sleep," implying unconsciousness:
-Daniel 12:2 – "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
-John 11:11-14 – Jesus said of Lazarus, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him." Then Jesus clarified, "Lazarus has died." If Lazarus was conscious in heaven or hell, why would Jesus equate his state with sleep?
-Acts 7:60 – When Stephen was martyred, it says, "he fell asleep," rather than suggesting he immediately went to heaven.

2. The Dead Have No Consciousness
Scripture teaches that the dead are not aware or active in any way:
-Ecclesiastes 9:5 – "The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." If the dead were conscious in heaven or hell, this would not be true.
-Psalm 146:4 – "When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." There is no ongoing thought process after death.
-Isaiah 38:18-19 – Hezekiah says, "For Sheol does not thank you, death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." If believers immediately went to heaven, they would surely be praising God.

3. Resurrection, Not Immediate Heaven or Hell, Is the Hope of Believers
The Bible consistently teaches that believers receive eternal life at the resurrection, not at the moment of death:
-1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." This shows that the dead remain asleep until the resurrection. (This is the last day resurrection of every person spoken of by Jesus in John 6:39-40. This includes those who are alive and dead, believers and non-believers, to judgment. NOTE: This verse is not a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture verse)

4. Jesus Did Not Teach Immediate Consciousness After Death
Some argue that Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross contradict soul sleep, but the misunderstanding comes from punctuation:
-Luke 23:43 – Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." However, Greek manuscripts have no punctuation. Punctuation was added hundreds of years later. So, punctuation is not God inspired. If the comma is move after the word "today", it then reads as, "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise," So, on the day that Jesus was hung on the cross, He said that the thief would be with Him in paradise sometime in the future. But when would that be? Jesus said in John 6:39-40 that this would be on the last day. Which is the day of Judgement. "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” Martha also pointed out that it was on the last day that the believers would be raised in John 11:24. So, it was commonly known that believers would be raised at the last day, the day of judgement. John 5:28-26 says, "Do not be amazed at this; for a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come out: those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Many people use the verses in Revelation to show that believers are raised straight away. But they miss the fact that those who are there in heaven are the people who were given white robes. And it is the martyrs who were given white robes. So, those in heaven are the martyrs. No one else.

Many believers interpret John 5:24 as saying that we will not face judgment at all. However, this misunderstanding arises from not recognizing the meaning of the Greek word "krisis." Krisis refers specifically to condemnation, not the absence of all judgment.
John 5:24 states: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."
This same misunderstanding occurs in other passages where krisis is used, such as Romans 8:1 and John 3:18.

G2920 - krisis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)

G2920 - κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

www.blueletterbible.org

These verses emphasize that believers in Christ are not subject to condemnation or eternal judgment because they have passed from death to life through faith in Him. However, believers do face the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

The biblical evidence strongly supports that the dead are asleep, unconscious, and awaiting resurrection at Christ’s return. The hope of believers is not an immediate afterlife but the glorious resurrection when Christ returns.

Thanks for sharing @1Tonne, although the question was not to you.
I think we may disagree on a very small percentage of doctrine (not referring to this post), perhaps 2-4%.
I think I will have a chat with you, at some point in time to find out, because I have never met anyone who believe so many things that I too believe.