Having some serious doubts...help?

[Idromos247]

Yes, but it's not quite that simple that 'no one' ever could make it before Christ's way, else Elijah wouldn't have been taken up into Heaven.... It wasn't about being 'perfect and sinless', but instead about repenting and returning to God, and believing in Him, and following His ways (old testament) generally, and repenting when they didn't. But, even this 'mercy' wasn't going to be enough for the great majority. We needed Christ, and God knew this, and planned it from ancient times!

I was not saying no one could make it before the new testament. I only said no one could be 100% perfect or sinless. Man always needed and until the end will always need to repent for wrong doings.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Why ask this question if you know that the elect are chosen....so he would have no option to go to God of his own will? And would you be speaking like this if you didnt feel that you were one of the sheep?

Hello RG,
Thanks for your response and good question.

[Why ask this question if you know that the elect are chosen....]
RG....the fact of Gods electing grace does not dispense with the truth of Human responsibility. All who are given by the Father will COME to Jesus.

[so he would have no option to go to God of his own will?]
No ONE seeks God unless God makes them willing.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


[And would you be speaking like this if you didnt feel that you were one of the sheep]

We are to obey this;
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Well...despite gallant efforts by many Christians, you CANNOT reconcile endless conscious torment with a loving God. In the end, ALL will be saved; this is a biblical teaching and also correctly portrays God as a loving father who NEVER gives up on his children. Go here and you will find many articles that look at the doctrine of universal reconciliation.



Stop treating the bible as a inerrant, dictated document from God that dropped from the sky...because it's not, and you'll feel much better. An excellent resource is at Pete Enns | the Bible for normal people






Again...go to Pete Enns | the Bible for normal people

Sorry that you do not believe the scriptures.
Some will learn about hell from the scriptures.
Others will learn by experience.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I don't THINK I will go to hell for asking questions and not believing for the sake of believing. God will understand

That's a huge deception there!! Oh God will understand.
Scripture tells us there is Only One Way to Him and that is Through Christ.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So unless you accept Jesus as your Christ and make Him your Lord and Savior of your life by becoming Born Again - well what He will understand is - Either Christ Blood has Washed you or Not.

Blessings
FCJ

 

[Acts2:38]

The God you describe created a hell and then watches millions willingly walk into it......So why would you believe it impossible for a person who would have come to Christ to be cut off early? Is that less loving than being born hellbound?

He created it for satan really. However, everyone in rebellion to God's will, would find themselves going there too, through THEIR CHOICE. God doesn't wish to command robots, otherwise He would have created us without free will to choose.

On a side note, your latter sentence, are you implying predestination?

 

[CrystalDragon]

Hello RG,
Thanks for your response and good question.

[Why ask this question if you know that the elect are chosen....]
RG....the fact of Gods electing grace does not dispense with the truth of Human responsibility. All who are given by the Father will COME to Jesus.

[so he would have no option to go to God of his own will?]
No ONE seeks God unless God makes them willing.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


[And would you be speaking like this if you didnt feel that you were one of the sheep]

We are to obey this;
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

So if people refuse to believe and God sends them to hell for not believing (which I think is unjust), then it's only because God didn't draw them? Doesn't their presence in hell rest solely on God then, especially since God supposedly knows everything? Did God create people specifically to torture them forever? How is that anything resembling love?

 

[Tolworth John]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Unfortunetly there are no new questions here.
May I suggest that you have a look at sites like reasonablefaith for logical answers to your questions or coldcasechristianity for a detectives view of the bible and answers to your questions.

 

[AlexDTX]

Many have already answered, so if I repeat what has already been said, forgive me.

Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

Your hypothetical is both impossible and based upon works. There are none righteous. Salvation has nothing to do with what we do but who we are. We are sinners through and through and God gave us the free gift of perfect life in Christ if we believe in the grace He offers us. Christianity is not a religion, it is biology. The beginning of a new creation unlike the old creation.

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression?

I don't. Science ignores the reality of the spirit world since it can not catalogue it with the 5 senses. Science, therefore is limited at best, and definitely biased against God at worst.

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Do you even know Jesus through the new birth? The Bible is not written for a small group of Middle Easter tribesman, it is written for those who know God.

 

[Halbhh]

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific

It's valuable to know that the *actual* text is *not* like some of the popular assertions about the text!

Example -- In Genesis chapter 1, there is no statement of any kind, nor any information at all about how much time passes as God creates the Universe. Just look and see with your own eyes:

New International Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

King James Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the universe.

NET Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

---
See? No information about how much time. That is because the amount of time is *not* the point of Genesis chapter 1, but instead the amazing wonder of all that is, God's creation, and the march of life on Earth, our special planet He intended for us.

While I think about 9 billion years passed during verse 1, I consider it unimportant except only as a valuable point to make for those whose faith is shaken because they have been told wrongly that it's an absolute truth that all of creation was not only during 6 24 hour days but more -- that these days were consecutive and with zero time gaps in between them, which are presumptions that are not in the text!

Instead, in this wonderful vision given about creation, I surmise (my view about what isn't in the text) that long periods of time, unspecified, likely passed between the various days. But that is not actually important, and one could even think (as some do) God created in days with no time gaps between them, but created an appearance to the finest detail of the Earth being very old (over 4.5 billion years), as an intentional appearance (the view of some people, not me). See? There are many diverse theories, but none matter!

What matters is that God is behind all things, and is the Alpha and the Omega, and we will all face Christ on the Day of accounting to come, and we can be redeemed even from all the wrongs we have done! Praise God.

 

[RaymondG]

He created it for satan really. However, everyone in rebellion to God's will, would find themselves going there too, through THEIR CHOICE. God doesn't wish to command robots, otherwise He would have created us without free will to choose.

On a side note, your latter sentence, are you implying predestination?

If God created it for Satan..Only Satan will be there. (But I do note that a disciple was called Satan before.) He doesnt make mistakes and is not surprised. He is all knowing. God's will Will be done. Man thoughts are not God thoughts and neither are their wills God's. It is dangerous to teach your wisdom as God's. Opinions are respected.....but to say you know God's will and his wish???? I dont know about that.......especially since the masters of the scriptures could recognize God in their midst.

Concerning "predestination," I dont know what it means. If you want to discuss my sayings, we can...If you want to discuss the views of a group of people, you will have to go to them. I dont like big words and concepts fools cant understand....i am a child.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

CrystalDragon,
Hello CD

[So if people refuse to believe and God sends them to hell for not believing (which I think is unjust), then it's only because God didn't draw them?]

People go to hell because of sin that is not paid for.They love sin and God is going to punish sin.

[ Doesn't their presence in hell rest solely on God then,]
A Holy God punishes all sin, either in the sinner or the Divine substitute

[ especially since God supposedly knows everything?]
The God of the bible does know everything Acts 15:18

[ Did God create people specifically to torture them forever? How is that anything resembling love?]

Man was originally created good Gen 1:31 Adams sin has made all men haters of God.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

What were you saved from?

Sin and death.

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Alithis]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

yet another thread that seems to start with a genuine question but exposes its real motive by its misrepresentation of God OR the fact, iftghe asker really grew up in a chritian family,its one that never read the bible.

Hod never says he wants to throw every one into hell .
quite the opposite .he is willing that None perish.

i was willing one time ,in making a point.to give a man $20
but for whatever reason ,he refused to take it.
what is to be done for a person who refuses
salvation then ?

its foolish to blame God for the actions ofpeople.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Concerning "predestination," I dont know what it means. If you want to discuss my sayings, we can...If you want to discuss the views of a group of people, you will have to go to them. I dont like big words and concepts fools cant understand....i am a child.[/QUOTE]
For the sake of understanding what is being asked I will try to explain, its not that difficult to understand really. You know what a destination is. Pre means before, as in prepack, prepare, preface, etc. Predestination is the belief that God has decided your destination before you existed and you cant change it, your destination has been set by God.

To answer the question it a catch 22 situation in my opinion. God knows what we will decide using our free will so His work in our lives that leads us to Him and our choosing Him are inter linked. If we wouldnt choose Him, He wouldnt lead us to Him. Its one of these conundrums that can make your brain hurt if you dwell on it too long. I believe that we limit God to our understanding of and existence in time. Once you reach the point that you believe God exists outside of time as we know it (otherwise there would never have been any prophecy) you can accept that free will does exist for us but God's drawing us beforehand is not a sign that He does not love those that He does not draw to Him.

 

[RaymondG]

For the sake of understanding what is being asked I will try to explain, its not that difficult to understand really. You know what a destination is. Pre means before, as in prepack, prepare, preface, etc. Predestination is the belief that God has decided your destination before you existed and you cant change it, your destination has been set by God.

To answer the question it a catch 22 situation in my opinion. God knows what we will decide using our free will so His work in our lives that leads us to Him and our choosing Him are inter linked. If we wouldnt choose Him, He wouldnt lead us to Him. Its one of these conundrums that can make your brain hurt if you dwell on it too long. I believe that we limit God to our understanding of and existence in time. Once you reach the point that you believe God exists outside of time as we know it (otherwise there would never have been any prophecy) you can accept that free will does exist for us but God's drawing us beforehand is not a sign that He does not love those that He does not draw to Him.

Like I said, if you want tho talk about what I said without trying tho group me with believers, we can. If not there are plenty of people here willing to argue man's wisdom with you.

 

[Acts2:38]

If God created it for Satan..Only Satan will be there. (But I do note that a disciple was called Satan before.)

Yes, it was created for satan and his angels Matthew 25:41 "prepared for satan and his angels" for example. However, because we are human, Romans 3:23, and not perfect, we must reconcile to God or face the reality of the "broad path" that leads to destruction, aka consequences of our lifes choices and receive eternal punishment as Matthew 25:41 and previous verses, also tells you.

He doesnt make mistakes and is not surprised. He is all knowing. God's will Will be done. Man thoughts are not God thoughts and neither are their wills God's.

Quote me where I said otherwise. I never claimed to know more than God. However, He did leave us His gospel in which we know how to conduct ourselves. You would be foolish not to admit this truth. The bible is an instruction manual on how to conduct our lives. How to become Christians, how to remain faithful, how to love one another, etc.

. It is dangerous to teach your wisdom as God's. Opinions are respected.....but to

I don't teach my wisdom sir. The gentleman literally stated to not put verses down as he will not listen (see OP). So, with the bible in mind (like I stated in my first post #2) I told the guy what the bible has told me. From the wisdom of the scriptures not from me. Therefore, it is not my opinion.

I dont know about that.......especially since the masters of the scriptures could recognize God in their midst.

Could you clarify this for me? This sentence seems incomplete to me or missing something.

Concerning "predestination," I dont know what it means. If you want to discuss my sayings, we can...If you want to discuss the views of a group of people, you will have to go to them. I dont like big words and concepts fools cant understand....i am a child.

Okay, that last statement you made at the end of your previous post was confusing to me, so I was wanting you to clarify it.

I do not wish to discuss your sayings, only discuss what is in the scripture. If you wish to just chit chat on the side, I am fine with that.

As far as "not liking big words" and "concepts fools cant comprehend", that would be a mistake on your part. There is nothing wrong with learning and understanding what something is. Educate yourself, understand, know. The bible states that we should study it diligently. The bible has words/statements children would not know, does that make it a foolish concept?

I merely thought you were taking me in a direction that lead to predestination, and I was going to refute that false teaching. However, you told me here you dont know, so I will leave that alone.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Acts2:38 says;
[I merely thought you were taking me in a direction that lead to predestination, and I was going to refute that false teaching. However, you told me here you dont know, so I will leave that alone.]

predestination is the biblical teaching...you will not refute that

 

[Acts2:38]

Acts2:38 says;
[I merely thought you were taking me in a direction that lead to predestination, and I was going to refute that false teaching. However, you told me here you dont know, so I will leave that alone.]

predestination is the biblical teaching...you will not refute that

I can, with scripture, something you cannot refute unless blind or lack understanding to the words of scripture. Sorry to be so frank, but you need to study this issue with eyes open.

How do you explain scripture like this away?

1 Timothy 2:3-6
1 John 2:2
John 3:17

 

[dqhall]

If God created it for Satan..Only Satan will be there. (But I do note that a disciple was called Satan before.) He doesnt make mistakes and is not surprised. He is all knowing. God's will Will be done. Man thoughts are not God thoughts and neither are their wills God's. It is dangerous to teach your wisdom as God's. Opinions are respected.....but to say you know God's will and his wish???? I dont know about that.......especially since the masters of the scriptures could recognize God in their midst.

Concerning "predestination," I dont know what it means. If you want to discuss my sayings, we can...If you want to discuss the views of a group of people, you will have to go to them. I dont like big words and concepts fools cant understand....i am a child.

Jesus was crucified and nailed to a wooden cross. His enemies wanted him to suffer. His pain was not long lasting for he died and was soon resurrected. Jesus suffered for doing good. The wicked try to save themselves, but many of these suffered injury, illness, being cut off from God's fellowship and arrived at the end of their stay on earth upon death. I do not believe hell is a forever torture chamber. I am of the opinion this world and solar system will pass away with intense heat (2Peter 3:7).

Jesus did not come to kill and torture. He came to save who he could. A mortal body can not survive an event that destroys this world and the elements our bodies are formed from. That is punishment enough. To reject God is to miss a chance to live forever. Eternity is for Christ and his followers, not for the wicked.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I can, with scripture, something you cannot refute unless blind or lack understanding to the words of scripture. Sorry to be so frank, but you need to study this issue with eyes open.

How do you explain scripture like this away?

1 Timothy 2:3-6
1 John 2:2
John 3:17

I do not explain them away...I understand them as they are just fine.

I tim2....all kinds of men...
2 I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:

2 for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,

1jn2....the sins of is added.....Jesus alone is the propitiation for His people worldwide...not Israel only
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

jn3:16-18...read it all together....not israel only, salvation goes worldwide because God promised it would....
nice and simple.....
Now here you are speaking primarily of the atonement...more than predestination, but we have plenty of time to look at it.