Having some serious doubts...help?

[stuart lawrence]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

What is eternal damnation?
A literal fire that consumes you forever?
Or, an existence in which Gods presence does not exist?
If you think about it, an eternity without Gods presence would be like a raging fire in your soul that would never die. It would be anguish

It is quite true, some who refuse to accept Christ may live better earthly lives than some who do accept him. But the only people who can attain to heaven are those who have a saviour from their sins. For no one, either Christians or non Christians can live a sinless life, and without a saviour from sin you will be condemned.

People have a choice. To accept or reject Christ.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yep - but I think it's fair to assume being condemned by God is likely to be worse than our human / mortal feelings of pain / torture.

I don't think it smart to assume anything there. Sure, you were always taught to believe the worse but when we really start looking closely, it's hard to say just what is going on there.

I did notice you didn't answer my question on just exactly what this torture you mentioned entailed, making my point perfectly.

Not sure what the point of your post was - nit pick 2 sentences out of all I said to express your superiority complex and arrogance?

My point was clear. Not sure what that's about? If you can't handle other opinions or even the suggestion you may not have something right, I know a mimes discussion board that may suit you much better. It's amazing how well they all get along there.

We also have forums here where no one is allowed to disagree or debate the OP, a place I would likely never start a thread, but might be just what you're looking for.

I've come here as I have sincere and genuine questions, please try and respect that (as other posters have) and provide constructive feedback / help.

And I gave sincere/constructive feed back in telling you, you may not have as much of a gripe as you think, and why. But I think I see, if it doesn't agree with you, or what you want to hear, it's not constructive.

Way too touchy.

 

[jeffinjapan]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

Well...despite gallant efforts by many Christians, you CANNOT reconcile endless conscious torment with a loving God. In the end, ALL will be saved; this is a biblical teaching and also correctly portrays God as a loving father who NEVER gives up on his children. Go here and you will find many articles that look at the doctrine of universal reconciliation.

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Stop treating the bible as a inerrant, dictated document from God that dropped from the sky...because it's not, and you'll feel much better. An excellent resource is at Pete Enns | the Bible for normal people

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman....

Again...go to Pete Enns | the Bible for normal people

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

All men are guilty sinners ,none are righteous.
All are fallen and dead, separated from God because of sin.
The bible is God breathed, not the invention of men.
God has elected to save a multitude of sinners in Himself.
He does not have to save any, but He has chosen to save a multitude of sinners in love having predestined them.
At a point in time, each and everyone of those elected by God is saving drawn to Him by the Holy Spirit.
Not one of those chosen by God will be lost....He seeks and saves His sheep.
The real question is....have you repented of your sin and come to Jesus.
Jesus taught that All the Father gives to Him, will come to Him.....have you?

 

[GirdYourLoins]

From the OP I would guess you are not born again as in John 3:3. These sound like the comments of someone who does not have a relationship with God and has not been filled with the Holy Spirit. I suggest you pray and declare Jesus as Lord in your life as in Romans 10:9 and ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Faith is choosing to believe. I have seen plenty of evidence in my life to prove God, but there needs to be faith in there which requires choosing to believe in and follow Jesus. You need to respond to the calling of God rather than question it and move away from it based on the arguments of the atheists who want to try to prove that God does not exist and still have not been able to. People choose to reject Jesus and that is their choice, we are called to share the Gospel but they have to respond.

And where in the Bible does it condone murder, sexism, slavery, etc? One of the 10 commandments is do not murder. God created man and woman and calls for us to live as we were created to do in different roles but as equals (I expect you are saying sexism based on ungodly modern views that try to twist and undermine these roles) and the Bible teaches that slaves were to be treated well, Jews could sell themselves into slavery and they were to be released after 7 years unless they chose to remain slaves. This is not the slavery that Africans were sold into with brutality and being worked to death.

 

[Norbert L]

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Then you should listen to the arguments made by boring scholars about what the Bible contains, not just the prevailing wind of popularized doctrines and choose what only suites a scientific 21st century worldview.

Those Middle Eastern tribesman count as one nation among many others. They were just at odds with those same ancient texts as Christians are today. They too recognized that they were being influenced by other points of view and its' outside pressure to conform to something other than Christ 2 Peter 2:1-3 Colossians 2:8.

I think what you need to consider is why you chose to use eternal damnation as a basis in the Controversial Christian Theology forum rather than annihilation. Or why you chose the word murder over capital punishment. How about including the super natural alongside with scientific. It's not as if when Richard Dawkins claimed that evolution is true, he could scoop up some inorganic material, bring it to a lab and have it evolve into a living creature that can observably reproduce eventually into mankind.

 

[Colter]

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Don't worry, I've never believed in Hell fire eternal torture! Many Christians don't buy into that stuff. God is good.

The Bible is a layer cake of spiritual truth and mans speculation, conjecture, real history, exaggerated and culturally biased history etc. But its enough to find faith in the Living God. Jesus is the most accurate revelation of the true Father in heaven.

The Old Testament is the world according to the people who killed Jesus and their self important place in it. They became discredited false prophets, Jesus left their house desolate.

In my opinion Eternal torture is a fabrication by backward religious shamans and con men who had no truth to teach. They only have fear of torture. There is either life or death.

 

[Dave G.]

Well the good news is Thomas doubted too and the Lord proved Himself to Thomas. Even in doubt He is there. My prayer is the OP can ride out this season in his Christianity and go straight to the Lord with these concerns. I say that because he will find answers that way. I said what I said early on and the OP decided that was worthless, he obviously missed the meaning in the words which is too bad.. But I've stuck my nose into other faiths and found nothing there and sometimes dangerous things to be there.. My point was to take the little faith that is still in him and let the Lord work with it. I've seen many signs right within the bible itself. I've seen things working in my life that connected to specific scripture that was beyond coincidence. And I had doubts once upon a time as to the authenticity of the bible ( never Jesus). And to the OP: seek Him out in this, He will reinforce your faith and open up pathways. I hope someone here can assist you in that but if not don't stop. It might be meant to be that you doubt and search so you can find the truth that was there in the pages of the bible all along. You might be purposed to endure this to gain strength, don't rule that out, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

 

[Serving Zion]

John 3:18

My interpretation (which may be misguided) is that one either believes or doesn't and as a result is condemned or not.

John 3:18 is speaking of a judgement of our present countenance (the determination of whether we are in Christ or whether we need to be born-again: John 15:5-6; John 3:8), whereas Matthew 25 is speaking of a final judgement that fits after Luke 19:15.

I was brought up in a Christian household but of late have hit some pretty big hurdles.

I know I'll be able to find answers trawling through the forums but thought this would be the most efficient to deal with my questions.

It also invites personal words of combat that you could have been better to not receive, FYI (Matthew 7:15).

My key questions are:

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...How can we reconcile that we have a kind and loving God when he is willing to cast the majority of humanity into ETERNAL DAMNATION? Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

God is certainly not intending to pervert justice in the judgement. Today's Christianity has become broadly misleading, and you are on the right track (the narrow path) by questioning what you believe to make sure your beliefs are robust, discarding those that you have always taken for granted when they just don't stack up. St. Paul gave this advice to the Philippian church when it was imminent that he would not be able to personally continue teaching them (Philippians 2:12). These two pages have useful scriptures for you: Are They Lost?, The Final Judgement.

How do you guys deal with the scores of bible verses (I won't list them...) that conflict with scientific, social and epistemological progression? E.g. Those condone murder, sexism, slavery etc. Yes, these were different cultural times, but are we then picking and choosing (e.g. slavery was a product of cultural times whilst homosexuality is not and is definitely a sin).

Case-by-case, being wholly honest, avoiding speculation and not compromising my integrity for the sake of gaining favour. If you have a specific to analyse, I can demonstrate how I might approach it.

Lastly...

I've just come to a realisation that the Bible is an ancient text written by and for a small group of Middle Eastern tribesman. What other than our belief (which may be misled / uneducated) helps us place the Bible ahead of any other ancient text (e.g. Qaran)???

It is written accounts of what men have seen or thought, whereas the Koran is a record of what Prophet Muhammed received from a non-human spirit that identified itself as the Archangel Gabriel. When we ourselves are righteous, we have a fairly good intuition about whether someone is being deceitful or sinful in their testimony. This is how we can gauge the reliability of texts, such as how the canonised bible has excluded the apocryphal texts upon the basis of identifying the soul who was inspired to write in holy spirit distinct from one writing in a demonic spirit (ie: not sanctified at time of writing).

Sorry for the broad / controversial questions...important time in my life and I'm struggling to make sense of it all.

Test all things, hold fast to the good. The truth will always stand up to scrutiny, but falsehoods will crumble.

 

[SkyWriting]

Wasn't the book of Genesis (and the first five books of the Bible) written by Moses, anyway thats what I heard.

They are believed to have been edited by him.

 

[Colter]

The Bible books tend to favor those who wrote them while kind of portraying anyone else in the world as "Gentile dogs". Its like asking the Democrats to write the history of the Republicans.

 

[RaymondG]

A better example is this. Pretend a group of people are on a boat in the middle of the ocean. The boat starts sinking from an accident and you have to jump off even though there is no life preservers or anything to help you. At this point you will likely drown. Along comes a helicopter and someone throws you a lifejacket and then they lower a ladder (or rope with hook) to get you. If you don't take any of the help you die. If you take the life jacket it won't save you forever. But if you take the rope you can be brought to safety. It will save your life. Its your choice

To make your example more accurate, The helicopter being God..... The person in the helicopter would of had to place the people in the sinking boat (knowlingly) and then make the lifeline almost impossible to see/grab. Therefore, the person would have cause not to trust the helicopter, and if they did, they would still have a hard time seeing and grabbing the line........but the helicopter is good...

Sometimes a simple, I dont know or i dont understand is much better than trying to explain Gods plan.

 

[woobadooba]

1. Watch this movie: Hell and Mr. Fudge
2. The Bible does not condone sin. See Exodus 20:3-17
3. All other religions but Christianity teach salvation by works (an impossibility). The Bible testifies of a God who died for your sins. What amazing love! No other religion can match that. Read: Romans 3:23; John 3:16; Romans 5:8; 1 John 1:9; and Ephesians 2:8-10.

 

[RaymondG]

God is the 3 Omni's as I like to put it. God would not have someone killed off if they really were going to repent and be baptized into Christ. In otherwords, God gives people plenty of chance. It is those individuals who refuse to come and obey him.

The God you describe created a hell and then watches millions willingly walk into it......So why would you believe it impossible for a person who would have come to Christ to be cut off early? Is that less loving than being born hellbound?

 

[RaymondG]

The real question is....have you repented of your sin and come to Jesus.
Jesus taught that All the Father gives to Him, will come to Him.....have you?

Why ask this question if you know that the elect are chosen....so he would have no option to go to God of his own will? And would you be speaking like this if you didnt feel that you were one of the sheep?

 

[Halbhh]

As Christians our belief is that believers in Christ and the bible will go to heaven and non-believers will be cast into hell for eternal damnation. Eternal damnation = much worse than torture or pain...

Actually, as believers we are taught about different outcomes than those(!) -- on both -- 1rst, who additionally might be in heaven, and 2nd, what is the actual alternative to Eternal Life (it is not conscious torment forever except perhaps for immortals like the devil)

But not all pastors/believers are aware of all that is in the New Testament about these. There is so much, and they miss answers to exactly these questions you raise, and presume other answers. But here are the actual answers right from the scripture --

"6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”a 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile [including both believers and non believers] 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile [including also those not knowing of Christ in a true way!].

11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [!. But, most cannot do this very far without a powerful resource like a relationship with God/Christ...] 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." (Romans chapter 2)

Further, we know over and over in scripture that anyone can repent in their heart to God and be forgiven (but it must be real repentance). So, even a person never hearing of Christ in the true full way of the gospel, the good news, could still nonetheless possibly repent to God and after each repentance some might even live righteously, and then Paul describes what happens for them in the above verses. Now, few could do this well, and thus we almost every one really do need Jesus Christ as our redeemer!

We know even further that the dead that passed before the good news arrived for them, get a chance to hear the gospel as shown in 1 Peter chapter 3 --

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago..."

See? Real fairness.

More, we learn from Christ that He can give us eternal life -- and that means we do not already have it to begin with.... Without Eternal Life, He says that we "perish" --

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

See? Unless given that eternal life, we don't have it and so are *not* immortal, and thus those human souls there "perish" as Christ said. No eternal duration of torment, even though it is very much indeed an 'eternal punishment'....

Christ said a confirmation of this reality, that the lake of fire truly destroys --

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew chapter 10

So, God can "destroy" both body and soul....

This is why it is called the "second death"!

Because it really is a second death. The words are quite real, and mean what they say.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Ok I'll try and make it a bit more direct.

Under your / our / the mainstream understanding of Christianity:

Will a righteous man from the Amazon jungle who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a righteous woman from North Korea who hasn't heard of the good news go to hell?
Will a young, innocent child who's mind was polluted unwillingly by his / her family and difficult upbringing go to hell?
Would someone who was on the path to righteousness but had their life cut short (e.g. by an accident) go to hell?

This is what I mean by circumstance. I feel I could so easily have been in these positions and be cast to an eternity of damnation :S

I just saw this comment and had to respond.

We are saved by faith and not good works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Our self righteous deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord.

If have heard stories of a missionary who went to the Amazon and met a tribe that knew of God sending His son who died on a "tree" be revelation. They told him they had been waiting for someone to tell them Jesus name which God had told them by revelation that it would happen.

My mind was polluted by my family, yet I was saved.

There are Christians in North Korea.

 

[RaymondG]

I just saw this comment and had to respond.

We are saved by faith and not good works. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Our self righteous deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord.

If have heard stories of a missionary who went to the Amazon and met a tribe that knew of God sending His son who died on a "tree" be revelation. They told him they had been waiting for someone to tell them Jesus name which God had told them by revelation that it would happen.

My mind was polluted by my family, yet I was saved.

There are Christians in North Korea.

What were you saved from?

 

[Idromos247]

Someone could live a righteous and perfect life without having the opportunity to learn about Christ and suffer eternal damnation whereas someone who has sinned but repented will go to heaven?

The truth no one can live a perfect and sinless life., for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And we have to believe that God knowing all things, knows the hearts of all men and places them where he sees fit. We are mealy mortals and cannot understand a God that invented our brain and can comprehend things that would make our minds explode.

 

[Halbhh]

The truth no one can live a perfect and sinless life., for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And we have to believe that God knowing all things, knows the hearts of all men and places them where he sees fit. We are mealy mortals and cannot understand a God that invented our brain and can comprehend things that would make our minds explode.

Yes, but it's not quite that simple that 'no one' ever could make it before Christ's way, else Elijah wouldn't have been taken up into Heaven.... It wasn't about being 'perfect and sinless', but instead about repenting and returning to God, and believing in Him, and following His ways (old testament) generally, and repenting when they didn't. But, even this 'mercy' wasn't going to be enough for the great majority. (very, very few would make it I'm guessing) We needed Christ, and God knew this, and planned it from ancient times!